1. #481
    Progress raids are bad to test stuff, but so far it seems that some windsong procs are wasted (other than buffing Haunt damage and MG direct damage) and there are times when dots must be refreshed without active windsong procs. Also, trying to maximize windsong procs on dots is too complicated for me personally. Some minmaxing is good, without it affliction is almost like cata arcane mage, but this is where I draw the line.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Roark91 View Post
    That makes sense. I didn't think Agony would behave like that but yeah I can see that.



    I think you misunderstood me. I don't SB:CoE, ever. Even on Stone Guards, I do each CoE manually since I usually like to wait to see which dog goes active before I unload. The three GCDs used to get CoE up buy me that time. What I was trying to get at was essentially having 5 soul shards during the pull. SB > Wait ~20s while the shard regenerates > Tank pulls > SS (Because the SB buff is still on you, but the soul shard has regenerated, you've just applied your three dots and maintained 4 soul shards to proceed with the rest of the opener). The next time you SB:SS, which will be after using DS, those dots will have a 150% duration thanks to Pandemic. Is that clearer?
    Okay well I knew what you meant by the rest of your opener. The only thing I misunderstood was you saying SS CoE. But what I said still remains true, what you're talking about doing has been given thought and some people do just that. It just doesn't seem to be a DPS gain at all to most of us.

  3. #483
    I checked Agony updating, this information is not correct. It does not update while gaining procs when under 10 stacks.
    First I casted it on dummy when all my procs were off cooldown, they procced at 3-4 stacks.
    Then I casted it when everything was on cooldown and I had no procs.
    All tick numbers are the same.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Basically what he says. Character optimization is good for min/max because a proper gear setup is "free" DPS (meaning that it will improve your DPS regardless of your quality of play, so you don't have to "work" for it). Talents are good because they can either give you "free" DPS, or make your DPS substantially easier to "work" for. But at the end of the day, progression raiding is a lot more about consistently maintaining DPS while handling a lot of mechanics (and multiple targets) instead of absolute min-max on small details.

    It's the same reason many players choose to hit cap, when it's a "theoretical" DPS loss. You gain much more consistency than if you don't cap, and that factors in not only in consistency for DPS, but less small things to worry about.
    And I didn't say I agreed with this behavior so every just calm your tits lol. I simply stated that if you don't watch Windsong procs while using the Windsong enchant you aren't using a true min/max. Personally, since I am using Windsong I attempt to refresh dots as much as possible with the proc up and I do track it with Weak Auras, but by no means do I min/max it. Was a simple statement is all.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridcully View Post
    I checked Agony updating, this information is not correct. It does not update while gaining procs when under 10 stacks.
    First I casted it on dummy when all my procs were off cooldown, they procced at 3-4 stacks.
    Then I casted it when everything was on cooldown and I had no procs.
    All tick numbers are the same.
    Thanks for checking that, that saves me from having to do it myself, cause I was wondering about this. Means we have to refresh Agony manually in our opener, interesting.
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  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Tresdallah View Post
    And I didn't say I agreed with this behavior so every just calm your tits lol. I simply stated that if you don't watch Windsong procs while using the Windsong enchant you aren't using a true min/max. Personally, since I am using Windsong I attempt to refresh dots as much as possible with the proc up and I do track it with Weak Auras, but by no means do I min/max it. Was a simple statement is all.
    Just be careful so refreshing dots doesn't become a bad habit, as in you're doing it too often. We have so much of our damage coming from MG/Haunt that it can easily get out of hand if we start using a lot of globals on dot refreshing or even wasting soul shards on SB:SS to refresh them all at the same time.

    We have to draw a line somewhere and thats why I said just focusing on our very strongest buffs might be a good idea.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Just be careful so refreshing dots doesn't become a bad habit, as in you're doing it too often. We have so much of our damage coming from MG/Haunt that it can easily get out of hand if we start using a lot of globals on dot refreshing or even wasting soul shards on SB:SS to refresh them all at the same time.

    We have to draw a line somewhere and thats why I said just focusing on our very strongest buffs might be a good idea.
    I completely agree, here's how I look at it. I typically will get 3-4 MGs off in a row once I get my DoTs stacked up properly with the good buffs, but when the buffs are down if I have all my dots in the refresh window and I get a Windsong proc you better believe I'm going to refresh them and get 2-3 good MGs in before refreshing again lol. But yeah definitely a fine line to tread there.

  8. #488
    Yep, it pretty much comes down to memorizing the standard duration of your dots, what they were buffed with last time they were applied, wait until theres <50% left of them and see what incoming buffs you have to make sure you reapply them with as strong buffs as possible. Even here there will be a fine line because we have other things to take into consideration like CDs and soul shard management, but what I first said should be the basics when it comes to dot refreshing.

  9. #489
    Agony doesn't update per stack, even with Haste. You're looking at the tooltip, which is mistaken. Tooltips update with Haste on every DoT, but the DoT itself does not. The reason that I don't use it in the opener is because Agony's damage is so low at that point anyway that I can't see it being worth the global to refresh it when it's going to be done soon via SB:SS anyway.

    I don't think it's very difficult at all to keep track of your DoTs and when they are significantly buffed. I'm using Jade Spirit, Lightweave Dark Soul, Relic of Yu'lon and the Elegon trinket. When using Power Auras its not difficult at all to see when they're all up. When I see multiple of them proc at once, I refresh each DoT as it enters its refresh window, and then try to Haunt and channel MGs. If there were enough procs and Dark Soul active too, I'll do an SB:SS as they expire. I'll also let the DoTs tick off completely if they were buffed with int procs that I no longer have.

    It's really not that hard to keep track of.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2012-10-26 at 01:36 AM.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    It's really not that hard to keep track of.
    Agreed, but I couldn't ever get that beta version of Power Auras working so I'm currently stumbling around with Weak Auras.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tresdallah View Post
    Agreed, but I couldn't ever get that beta version of Power Auras working so I'm currently stumbling around with Weak Auras.
    1) Weak Auras is just as good and personally I think it's better than Power Auras.

    2) It's not terribly difficult to keep track of, but it does get more challenging with more procs that don't line up very well. Windsong from what I have seen is especially bad for this especially with several procs with 1 enchant. Jade Spirit will line up with Relic of Yu'lon, making it less micromanagement.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    Agony doesn't update per stack, even with Haste. You're looking at the tooltip, which is mistaken. Tooltips update with Haste on every DoT, but the DoT itself does not. The reason that I don't use it in the opener is because Agony's damage is so low at that point anyway that I can't see it being worth the global to refresh it when it's going to be done soon via SB:SS anyway.

    I don't think it's very difficult at all to keep track of your DoTs and when they are significantly buffed. I'm using Jade Spirit, Lightweave Dark Soul, Relic of Yu'lon and the Elegon trinket. When using Power Auras its not difficult at all to see when they're all up. When I see multiple of them proc at once, I refresh each DoT as it enters its refresh window, and then try to Haunt and channel MGs. If there were enough procs and Dark Soul active too, I'll do an SB:SS as they expire. I'll also let the DoTs tick off completely if they were buffed with int procs that I no longer have.

    It's really not that hard to keep track of.
    I'm looking at dot ticks on EventHorizon which updates the tick timing on every tick based on when it actually ticks, and doesn't look at the tooltip at all. I can assure you that agony DOES update at least haste values as it's ticking up to 10 stacks.

  13. #493
    EventHorizon is just wrong. I just tested this out (which is a pain) but it's easy to see with Mastery (tough with haste because combat log times are inconsistent):

    Without Windsong:
    [00:36:20.069] Rvst Agony Training Dummy 1 (O: 7705)
    [00:36:21.912] Rvst Agony Training Dummy 1 (O: 8562)

    With a Mastery proc Windsong right at the end:
    [00:36:51.964] Rvst Agony Training Dummy 1 (O: 7705)
    [00:36:52.192] Rvst gains Windsong from Rvst
    [00:36:53.755] Rvst Agony Training Dummy 1 (O: 8561)

    There's really no reason why it would update for just Haste and not Mastery.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    EventHorizon is just wrong. I just tested this out (which is a pain) but it's easy to see with Mastery (tough with haste because combat log times are inconsistent):

    Without Windsong:
    [00:36:20.069] Rvst Agony Training Dummy 1 (O: 7705)
    [00:36:21.912] Rvst Agony Training Dummy 1 (O: 8562)

    With a Mastery proc Windsong right at the end:
    [00:36:51.964] Rvst Agony Training Dummy 1 (O: 7705)
    [00:36:52.192] Rvst gains Windsong from Rvst
    [00:36:53.755] Rvst Agony Training Dummy 1 (O: 8561)

    There's really no reason why it would update for just Haste and not Mastery.
    Alright. Just tested it and it appears it isn't correct. Looks like a new bug I get to fix. Woopie! :P

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    Agony doesn't update per stack, even with Haste. You're looking at the tooltip, which is mistaken. Tooltips update with Haste on every DoT, but the DoT itself does not. The reason that I don't use it in the opener is because Agony's damage is so low at that point anyway that I can't see it being worth the global to refresh it when it's going to be done soon via SB:SS anyway.

    I don't think it's very difficult at all to keep track of your DoTs and when they are significantly buffed. I'm using Jade Spirit, Lightweave Dark Soul, Relic of Yu'lon and the Elegon trinket. When using Power Auras its not difficult at all to see when they're all up. When I see multiple of them proc at once, I refresh each DoT as it enters its refresh window, and then try to Haunt and channel MGs. If there were enough procs and Dark Soul active too, I'll do an SB:SS as they expire. I'll also let the DoTs tick off completely if they were buffed with int procs that I no longer have.

    It's really not that hard to keep track of.

    I'm doing exactly the same, but I have some doubts though. Well ALL THE TIME some of my proc's are active I refresh ALWAYS my dots, but i never interrupt MG i let it run completly. I have 4 proc's, 5 if pot it's active. I have Relic,Celestials( Elegon trinket), Lightweave and Windsong to track. I might change Windong for Jade Spirit, I read/heard that windsong can be better then Jade Spirit, should I switch?
    It's a true dps increase?

    Evralia, what you mean " I'll also let the DoTs tick off completely if they were buffed with int procs that I no longer have"? This isn't kinda hard to track?

    On which proc's you let your DoTs tick off? I'm doing something wrong then because I never let any of my doTs fade off.

    If you play Affliction properly it's much more difficult then Demonology. The main aspect for you to succeed on this spec now it's have an eye ALWAYS on your proc's and refresh your dots,Haunting full time and never interrupt a MG cast.

    Yes I <3 Weak Auras, you have identical addons that do exactly the same action such as Power Auras, Tell me When, Forte, other that I can't recall now.
    Last edited by David Cavalheiro; 2012-10-26 at 08:33 AM.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    It's really not that hard to keep track of.
    It's not hard to track. All you need is some addons. :P

    Jokes aside, as voidspark said, it gets harder when your procs get out of sync and that in combination with movement and multiple targets is when it gets messy. I've said everything else and this is completely subjective so I don't feel I have to explain it any further.


    I think I might try out Jade Spirit, just to see how it works. It just sucks that I bought over 200 sha crystals for less than 300g each but made enchants of all of them, which I have already sold. Now it would cost me around 7000g to have a Jade Spirit made. T_T

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavalheiro View Post

    Evralia, what you mean " I'll also let the DoTs tick off completely if they were buffed with int procs that I no longer have"? This isn't kinda hard to track?
    It's not really hard to track, no. Take the opener for example. I know that after that second SB:SS, on any fight, all my DoTs have every single proc buffed into them. If I refresh them before they expire, i'll just be nerfing the end of the DoT for no reason at all. (Although, never lot Agony fall off, obviously). It also means I can keep Malefic Grasping those buffed DoTs for the longest duration possible.

    I wouldn't bother doing it with say, something like just Lightweave on its own, but with Dark Soul or with both of my trinkets up at once - definiately, and that doesn't happen so often that it's hard to keep track of. In fact, it's not hard to track at all because I'm usually also using Haunt at this point, which is a bit of a giveaway.

    Also, if you're struggling to get Power Auras to work, you have the wrong version. Go to the Power Auras page on Curse, and in the description there is a link to the working version. WeakAuras I've been told is good, but I don't understand why it's better. I haven't tried it, but Power Auras does everything I could possibly want it to do - what makes WeakAuras special?


    One question I do have though - and I need answers with maths or proof, not with conjecture - the damage of the ghost ticks that Malefic grasp generates; is it based upon the damage of the DoT or the damage that Malefic Grasp does?

    For example, let's say I have DoTs buffed up to say 10,000 Intellect, and then I lose all my procs. The DoTs are still buffed now until they are refreshed, but my character now only has say 6,000 Intellect. If I start channeling Malefic Grasp, do the bonus ticks have 6000 Intellect or 10,000?

    If they only have 6000, then I'm placing way too much emphasis on dot refreshing and not enough on channeling whilst they are active.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    One question I do have though - and I need answers with maths or proof, not with conjecture - the damage of the ghost ticks that Malefic grasp generates; is it based upon the damage of the DoT or the damage that Malefic Grasp does?

    For example, let's say I have DoTs buffed up to say 10,000 Intellect, and then I lose all my procs. The DoTs are still buffed now until they are refreshed, but my character now only has say 6,000 Intellect. If I start channeling Malefic Grasp, do the bonus ticks have 6000 Intellect or 10,000?

    If they only have 6000, then I'm placing way too much emphasis on dot refreshing and not enough on channeling whilst they are active.
    Isn't it was fairly obvious by just reading the tooltip? MG does X dmg + 20% of SP alone plus 50% of your dots normal damage instantly for each tick. I've been thinking that MG becomes more important when we have Haunt debuff up as well as haste buffs giving us more ticks, otherwise we try make our strong dots last longer.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Isn't it was fairly obvious by just reading the tooltip? MG does X dmg + 20% of SP alone plus 50% of your dots normal damage instantly for each tick. I've been thinking that MG becomes more important when we have Haunt debuff up as well as haste buffs giving us more ticks, otherwise we try make our strong dots last longer.
    Because we all know how trustworthy tooltips are

  20. #500
    True, lol. Would be good to have it cleared up. I'll try do some testing on dummies later.

    Again this problem with not having something tracking dot buffs, sigh.
    Last edited by Bonkura; 2012-10-26 at 02:33 PM.

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