1. #921
    High Overlord Gorthan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shauni View Post
    I don't know how to answer to that. Did you just said that the 45 pages recommands to hit cap ?
    If so, I beg to differ

    Back on topic : I just noticed that I loged out with Grimoire of Supremacy after a WoE try. Stupid me, after going back to Sacrifice again my stat weight are back to normal (Mastery > Haste >>> 12% Hit > 13% hit). Forgive the noob
    45 pages said that the difference between the hit cap and the non hit cap is low. Too low to justify the rotation problems that the non hit cap introduces. We can argue a lot about this, if you are in progress or just farming, if you are trying to rank in wol or just enjoying the game. "Simple way" is to be intended like: "tl:dr what i have to do?" answer.

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthan View Post
    45 pages said that the difference between the hit cap and the non hit cap is low. Too low to justify the rotation problems that the non hit cap introduces. We can argue a lot about this, if you are in progress or just farming, if you are trying to rank in wol or just enjoying the game. "Simple way" is to be intended like: "tl:dr what i have to do?" answer.
    The difference is too low to justify one way over the other? That statement makes no sense.

  3. #923
    I think he means that by going with the hit cap you lose a negligible amount of DPS. Actually the difference is quite big (approx 1k DPS for me, I play at 12%) but I understand that for some peoplpe it doesn't worth the gameplay changes.

    Different gameplay for different folks.

  4. #924
    Playing with hit cap is almost as bad as stacking mastery after 4717 haste. The RNG just isn't as high as people want it to seem to be. Maybe if you go as low as ~9% but sure not at ~12%.

  5. #925
    Wouldn´t a valid point in going for hit being low valued in sims it being because it doesn´t take proccs really in to account. Sure they are modelled correctly but simcraft doesn´t "use them" smartly. Being reactive to that should increase the value of hit rating unless i´m off.

  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by thuras View Post
    Wouldn´t a valid point in going for hit being low valued in sims it being because it doesn´t take proccs really in to account. Sure they are modelled correctly but simcraft doesn´t "use them" smartly. Being reactive to that should increase the value of hit rating unless i´m off.
    You are correct.

    These discussions about secondary stats are never-ending though.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  7. #927
    Stood in the Fire Bloodfire's Avatar
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    6637 is the last haste cap for now? (i.e. after it I should go to mastery?)

  8. #928
    While hit cap might be needed for optimal play I'm very sure that most people will actually benefit from not going for hit cap. That sort of min/maxing with procs just doesn't work in practice and I doubt anyone is able to pull it off right now. The way SimCraft is modeled is by far the easiest way to approach this spec right now, at least with 4 piece when the times you have no procs/CDs up is very low.

    Later on there will be no discussion whether we'll hit cap or not since we'll have so much stats on our gear. Right now I wouldn't recommend it though.

  9. #929
    Why am I getting stat weight results with haste being so good?

    haste: 2.56
    mastery: 2.47

    My char is sitting around 4750 haste and 6740 mastery.

    Why do I get the feeling that if I reforge into haste and run the sim again it's just going to tell me that mastery is now the strong stat and I should reforge into it.

  10. #930
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkith View Post
    Why am I getting stat weight results with haste being so good?

    haste: 2.56
    mastery: 2.47

    My char is sitting around 4750 haste and 6740 mastery.

    Why do I get the feeling that if I reforge into haste and run the sim again it's just going to tell me that mastery is now the strong stat and I should reforge into it.
    Why don't you read the last few pages of this thread?

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Why don't you read the last few pages of this thread?
    i read your post about having a balance between haste and mastery. If that's the case then why isn't it a more popular idea? Why do ppl gem mastery... why not half mastery half haste?

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkith View Post
    i read your post about having a balance between haste and mastery. If that's the case then why isn't it a more popular idea? Why do ppl gem mastery... why not half mastery half haste?
    It's irrelevant. You can gem either Mastery or Hit or Haste and via the miracle of reforging you can arrive at pretty much whatever numbers you want.

    It's also irrelevant because look at the difference in your stat weights - .09. If you converted all 6740 Mastery into Haste the difference would be 600 DPS just based on stat weights, nearly nothing in the scheme of things (in reality it would be negative DPS because stats interact with each other multiplicatively).
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    almost as bad as stacking mastery after 4717 haste.
    Why not stack mastery? Simming you at 4717 haste from your 7200+ shows a net gain actually.

  14. #934


    My current stats are 6643 haste and 5428 mastery and the graph tells me to reforge 800 haste into mastery in order to gain 207 DPS, i mean who cares about 200 dps when u're doing above 100k dps ?

  15. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkith View Post
    Why am I getting stat weight results with haste being so good?

    haste: 2.56
    mastery: 2.47

    My char is sitting around 4750 haste and 6740 mastery.

    Why do I get the feeling that if I reforge into haste and run the sim again it's just going to tell me that mastery is now the strong stat and I should reforge into it.
    .. Because it will? Stat weights are not useful for reforging. It tells you how much dps you gain if you gain 1 of those stats now. It is not for how much you gain if you lose or gain mass quantities of both. You need to use the plot reforge graph.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzyo View Post
    Why not stack mastery? Simming you at 4717 haste from your 7200+ shows a net gain actually.
    I really doubt you went through the effort of manually reforging him --optimally-- down to 4717 haste using the simcraft code. It would almost definitely be a dps loss.




    Quote Originally Posted by n0n3 View Post

    My current stats are 6643 haste and 5428 mastery and the graph tells me to reforge 800 haste into mastery in order to gain 207 DPS, i mean who cares about 200 dps when u're doing above 100k dps ?
    That logic is baffling and wrong. This game is made up of lots of small numbers. And yes, it's probably right. You don't have anywhere near the gear to be going for the 6637 threshold. Thresholds are not a magic number.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2012-12-15 at 11:24 AM.

  16. #936
    Stood in the Fire Bloodfire's Avatar
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    Evralia, question:
    After getting 6637 threshold is worthless capping haste or not?

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzyo View Post
    Why not stack mastery? Simming you at 4717 haste from your 7200+ shows a net gain actually.
    I already explained why and you're wrong.


    Sim #1 (10k iterations, low lag, patchwerk, player skill elite, scaling mastery + haste)

    Stats: Hit 4078, Crit 3145, Haste 4719, Mastery 8932
    Scale Factors: Haste 2.91, Mastery 2.54
    DPS: 117739


    Sim #2 (same settings)

    Stats: Hit 4096, Crit 3145, Haste 6769, Mastery 6864
    Scale Factors: Haste 3.03, Mastery 2.67
    DPS: 118301

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodfire View Post
    Evralia, question:
    After getting 6637 threshold is worthless capping haste or not?
    Of course it's not worthless. Thresholds mean very little when not multi dotting. Do what simcraft tells you unless the fight justifies doing otherwise.

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    I already explained why and you're wrong.


    Sim #1 (10k iterations, low lag, patchwerk, player skill elite, scaling mastery + haste)

    Stats: Hit 4078, Crit 3145, Haste 4719, Mastery 8932
    Scale Factors: Haste 2.91, Mastery 2.54
    DPS: 117739


    Sim #2 (same settings)

    Stats: Hit 4096, Crit 3145, Haste 6769, Mastery 6864
    Scale Factors: Haste 3.03, Mastery 2.67
    DPS: 118301

    But for multi-dotting mastery would come on top?

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by warlockSTAR View Post
    But for multi-dotting mastery would come on top?
    It depends on the amount of targets. Basically on a fight where you will lose most (at least half) of your MG uptime I personally go all out mastery and usually run with a pet instead of GoSac. A good example of this is Wind Lord in HoF.

    Then there's fights like Will of the Empereror where the normal stat priority will do great as well as full mastery builds will.

    Seeing how theorycrafting goes for Affliction and how most of optimal play is just theories and something noone is able to pull off in a raid environment AND the fact that we don't know how big the gain actually is I think we should just trust SimCraft when it comes to single target. For multiple targets it will be depending on so many things that we just can't say what's better until it has been proven with math and evaulated how hard that is to pull off as a normal player and how much better it would be versus the easier safe route.


    I know it's frustrating for everyone who don't spend time theorycrafting and play on a casual level trying to come here and get tips. But believe me, it's even worse for us who try play on a high level where we are able to handle fight mechanics perfectly but need to squeeze out that extra DPS that is needed to kill the boss. As we try maximize our gear and output it's super confusing when we can't tell for sure if we should hit cap/not and go for haste thresholds then stack mastery or just keep both stats even.

    We have a long way to go before it will be set in stone what is better stat wise on different fight styles. Until then all I can suggest is using SimCraft for guidelines and listen to people who play on a high level or are just known in the community as good theorycrafters when it comes to ideas for how to behave in a raid. This spec actually has that high of a skill cap. Much higher than I had anticipated when MoP patch came in Cata. (It will be funny if Blizzard nerfs us for the OP single target spec we are then we found out we've been playing the spec wrong and remain a top 3 spec. The guy who finally figures this out could become a real hero.)



    To put everything in short of what I would recommend I'd tell you to go through these steps:

    1) Find out what amount of hit is good for you. This tier hit cap is most likely something most people won't obtain until close to full BiS. If you're fast at reacting to misses and feel comfortable playing with less hit then try find the best value for you. Otherwise just go for that cap. (I personally have went for 12% hit most of this tier, but I've had full raids where I've been hit capped because I've been tired of missing and it has made me lost my focus.)

    2) Your next secondary stats to look at will be haste and mastery. Don't ask anyone what you should choose. First reforge your gear to 4717 haste and then as much mastery as possibly. Run this in SimCraft with plot/scaling. Now reforge your mastery to be 2-300 rating above haste until you can take haste thresholds (mainly 4717 and 6637). Run SimCraft again with plot/scaling. First use the reforge that gave you the highest DPS result. After this check the stat weights and add/remove 100/200 of each stat (haste/mastery) until they are as even as you can get (this last step is probably just gonna give you couple of hundred dps more in theory, but hey everything counts).



    As a final word I'd just like to ask everyone who will keep running 4717 haste->mastery until absurd mastery levels and even encourage others to do so as well to please provide some proper theorycrafting instead of "this works for me I'm 12/14H and top 10 on most fights". All your results show us/you is that you're 1) really good or 2) had good RNG/were padding numbers. We need a huge sample of stats to prove that anything is better than other options. A couple of parses/high level players can't prove shit. Until this has been done SimCraft is what we all should rely on for now.

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