1. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    For my opener I do not use fel flame at all. After watching this video by Method's Sparkuggz, my opener is a very smooth affair and often has me bursting at levels on par with our shamans.

    I highly recommend watching it, really helped out my deeps.
    only problem with that video, is you dont wanna use doomguard at the start. its (almost) always best to use it sub 20% because it doesnt benefit from heroism

  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Sorry, but I would trust Sparkuggz over Evralia... I personally do things the way Sparkuggz does in that video when I play Aff.
    this , no offense


    Infracted for spam
    Last edited by xskarma; 2013-01-19 at 03:47 PM.

  3. #1143
    Quote Originally Posted by Viggers View Post
    only problem with that video, is you dont wanna use doomguard at the start. its (almost) always best to use it sub 20% because it doesnt benefit from heroism

    Yeah, this. The video was made before it came to light that the Doomguard had a very low haste cap.

  4. #1144
    Quote Originally Posted by Viggers View Post
    only problem with that video, is you dont wanna use doomguard at the start. its (almost) always best to use it sub 20% because it doesnt benefit from heroism
    I realize what would be theoretical best to do for the Doomguard (time it so its final Doombolt is the killing blow ... in an absolutely perfect bit of math), but I instead try to go for minimizing my floor rather than maximizing my ceiling by casting it at the beginning, so I don't use it too late (is still alive when the boss is dead) or too early (losing out on execute uptime in an attempt to not use it too late)

    I know it's not the best, but I feel never wasting a Doombolt + the beginning generally being the only time you can reasonably presume every single one of your procs will be up makes it not so terrible.

  5. #1145
    Dreadlord Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    The use of the doomguard is still situational, it was more about the general opener (and not using fel flame) that I wanted to show.

  6. #1146
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    Note that this video was pre patch 5.1 (he makes a comment about pandemic and dot "power" around the end of the video which refers to something that was indeed fixed with 5.1). Now the thing is this "bug" caused SB:SS refreshed dots not to use the current spell, haste & co values but some combination of old and current values, which does impact the opening rotation quite a bit.

    Assuming you're running with two good trinkets (say int procs from LotC and DMC, or even EoT in a less meaningful way), jade spirit and tailoring enchant. Full procs vs. no procs is a dot about 50+% more powerful (note that while you need to refresh the dot for int based procs to benefit to the MG-induced ticks, haste automatically does anyway, which thus reduces the refresh-or-dont-refresh gap). Becasue of the previously cited bug, there was no way (pre 5.1) to fully profit from an early refresh as soon as all procs trigger, which is why he only does it when they end. Now that you can get +60% for about 8-10 more seconds with one refresh at the beginning of procs and one right before the end, you should do it. There are several possible opening rotations that will achieve it.

    Note : always assuming you have 5 shards at opening using the pre-SB trick. Also, in case you want to use doomguard, or if you have to apply 5% magical debuff, you can fit it in right after the first application of dots in any case. Lastly, if one proc will fade long (4-5 s +) before all others, I feel it's preferable to wait and refresh before the second proc fades (overall longer buffed dots but a bit weaker).

    Quote Originally Posted by Opener 1 : pre-Haunt + 3 SB:SS
    t = -1.5 : Prepot + Haunt
    t = 0 : DS + all "use" effects + (SBSS for 3 dots (using the pre-pooled shard to apply dots)
    until all procs up : MG
    when all procs up : SB+SS
    until procs are about to fade : keep haunt up and MG
    when procs are about to fade : SB+SS
    Quote Originally Posted by Opener 2 : pre-Haunt + 2 SB:SS + FF
    t = -1.5 : Prepot + Haunt
    t = 0 : DS + all "use" effects + (SBSS (using the pre-pooled shard to apply dots)
    until all procs up : MG
    when all procs up : Fel Flame (refreshes UA and Corruption)
    until procs are about to fade : keep haunt up and MG
    when procs are about to fade : SB:SS
    And these two have variants where you don't pre-haunt and cast your first haunt right after your refresh when you get your procs. The advantage is you save about 1/2 shard and your haunts tend to align with procs better (you will probably get two haunts under full procs, whereas you would only have gotten one "right in the middle" with opener 1 or 2).

    I recently converted to version 2 (which is what evrelia suggests to do) with pre-haunt, used to do version 1 without pre-shard before. My guess is the theoretical difference is tiny between all 4.
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  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    The fanboy is strong with this one. Non constructive posts like "this" are against the MMO Forum rules, fyi.

    The jealously is strong with this one. Respecting the opinion of the Warlock from the best 25 man guild in the world (this tier) doesn't make anyone a fanboy. It shows a lack of arrogance.

    Considering how many fanboys you have around here, you probably shouldn't use the term in a derogatory way.

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    The jealously is strong with this one. Respecting the opinion of the Warlock from the best 25 man guild in the world (this tier) doesn't make anyone a fanboy. It shows a lack of arrogance.

    Considering how many fanboys you have around here, you probably shouldn't use the term in a derogatory way.
    I have enormous respect for both Sparkuggz and Varia, but you two provided no data or discussion other than saying "Sparkuggz says this, it must be better", and given your reputation on these forums so far Teye, you're very good at making people irate and making wild claims without data

    Ironically, at the time Sparkuggz' guide was made, the Fel Flame method was vastly superior due to the Pandemic bug. Fel Flame caused a full update, whereas SB:SS did not, meaning that his dots would only be at 50% of their power for the entire opener - not really optimal.

    Since 5.1 however, I don't tend to bother with Fel Flame if we have bloodlust, since an abundance of shards allows for 3 SB:SS casts in the opener. Pongeur explains it pretty well. I would go with his opener 1 with bloodlust, opener 2 without.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2013-01-19 at 05:15 PM.

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    I have enormous respect for both Sparkuggz and Varia, but you two provided no data or discussion other than saying "Sparkuggz says this, it must be better", and given your reputation on these forums so far Teye, you're very good at making people irate and making wild claims without data

    "Sparkuggz says this, it must be better" is something I never said. I took issue with you calling someone a fanboy for saying that they would trust Sparkuggz over you. I would trust a Warlock from the best guild in the world over a guy who still hasn't killed Heroic Sha, but seems to think he's the hottest thing to ever hit these forums.

    As far as making people angry goes... "When played properly, Demonology can out perform Affliction on several Heroic fights." Get mad.

  10. #1150
    Give it a rest guys, there's no need to get personal about any of this. I don't want to see further personalized remarks or insults in this discussion. You have been warned.

  11. #1151
    Using Fel Flame during your opener is stronger than not. Think deeply about what the tradeoff is. I'm putting together some math and writing a post about this soon but I'm being lazy.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  12. #1152
    Bloodsail Admiral Palmz's Avatar
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    I wouldn't waste a soul shard on a pre-pull Haunt either. Yes, waste.
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  13. #1153
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    I wouldn't waste a soul shard on a pre-pull Haunt either. Yes, waste.
    That last tidbit almost shows that you're aware of the wrong in the first sentence. The first haunt serves two purposes. One- The debuff is up for 2 sb:ss' (or 1 with fel flame) and at least 1.5 mg's at the cost of...nothing? Can you elaborate on something that apparently everyone else missed.

    edit: third bonus I forgot about (empowers the next haunt following the proc update where you will get full mg time out of.

  14. #1154
    Bloodsail Admiral Palmz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzyo View Post
    That last tidbit almost shows that you're aware of the wrong in the first sentence. The first haunt serves two purposes. One- The debuff is up for 2 sb:ss' (or 1 with fel flame) and at least 1.5 mg's at the cost of...nothing? Can you elaborate on something that apparently everyone else missed.

    edit: third bonus I forgot about (empowers the next haunt following the proc update where you will get full mg time out of.
    Between using a GCD casting Doomguard and a GCD on SB:SS you might benefit 4 seconds from Haunt and that's being generous. Plus you are wasting that Haunt on DoTs that aren't benefiting from your proc's. 1-2 seconds less of benefiting from a DPS potion also. That Haunt you saved is being used when your DoTs are at their full potential, when you can max out your next empowered Haunt and have more MG uptime. Never Fel Flame on the opener. There are times when you should but it's not in the opener.

    Instead you should be using that Soul Shard right after you take a DPS potion .5 before the pull instead of 2 seconds, doing 1 Malefic Grasp to proc everything THEN haunt and recast SB:SS, spam MG, Haunt again with 3 seconds left on the Haunt debuff and recast SB:SS when your first procs are falling off with 1 second left which would be Blood Fury if you're Orc, Lightweave, and DMC trinket proc if you still using it. Jade Spirit tends to fall off around the same second too.
    Last edited by Palmz; 2013-01-20 at 06:40 AM.
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  15. #1155
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    Between using a GCD casting Doomguard and a GCD on SB:SS you might benefit 5 seconds from Haunt and that's being generous. Plus you are wasting that Haunt on DoTs that aren't benefiting from your proc's. 1-2 seconds less of benefiting from a DPS potion also. That Haunt you saved is being used when your DoTs are at their full potential, when you can max out your next empowered Haunt and have more MG uptime. Never Fel Flame on the opener. There are times when you should but it's not in the opener.

    Instead you should be using that Soul Shard right after you take a DPS potion .5 before the pull instead of 2 seconds, doing 1 Malefic Grasp to proc everything THEN haunt and recast SB:SS, spam MG, Haunt again with 2.5 seconds left on the Haunt buff and recast SB:SS when your first procs are falling off with 1 second left which would be Blood Fury if you're Orc, Lightweave, and DMC trinket proc if you still using it. Jade Spirit tends to fall off around the same second too.

    Haunt has a travel time. Think about it.

  16. #1156
    Bloodsail Admiral Palmz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Haunt has a travel time. Think about it.
    3 seconds isn't long enough...?

    Edit: While the Haunt debuff is up on your current target when you attempt to cast your next empowered Haunt, its damage benefits immediately when it leaves your hand. It doesn't have to hit the target to be beneficial so you are trying to make sure your next tick of MG is going to benefit from Haunt which is around 3 seconds.
    Last edited by Palmz; 2013-01-20 at 06:42 AM.
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  17. #1157
    i dont think its a waste, most of the times i manage to soulburn when my rl rdy checks, so i have 4 shards + soulburn up, so that prepull haunt is for free. also when i fail at doing so, i still have enough shards to maintain 100% haunt uptime with cds with a prepull haunt.

  18. #1158
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    3 seconds isn't long enough...?

    Edit: While the Haunt debuff is up on your current target when you attempt to cast your next empowered Haunt, its damage benefits immediately when it leaves your hand. It doesn't have to hit the target to be beneficial so you are trying to make sure your next tick of MG is going to benefit from Haunt which is around 3 seconds.
    He means that the travel time on the pre-pull Haunt means that your SB:SS and your DG cast don't count against the initial Haunt's duration.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  19. #1159
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    He means that the travel time on the pre-pull Haunt means that your SB:SS and your DG cast don't count against the initial Haunt's duration.

    Bingo, this is correct.

  20. #1160
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    3 seconds isn't long enough...?

    Edit: While the Haunt debuff is up on your current target when you attempt to cast your next empowered Haunt, its damage benefits immediately when it leaves your hand. It doesn't have to hit the target to be beneficial so you are trying to make sure your next tick of MG is going to benefit from Haunt which is around 3 seconds.
    With a Haunt pre-pull, your Haunt and all your DoTs are up by your first GCD in the fight. What Teye is saying is different to what you are saying. You're suggesting that you can't take advantage of that first Haunt because you have to waste a GCD on SB:SS, but you don't.

    The part you're saying about Haunt benefitting from the previous Haunt the moment it leaves your hand is true, but that is not relevant on the pull.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2013-01-20 at 11:33 AM.

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