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  1. #321
    Thanks, Zinnin, for listing an optimal opener. I made that into a cast sequence macro that can be spam-clicked on pull, but doesn't include Summon Doomguard because its 10-minute cooldown can get in the way and halt the sequence. Once wands are fixed (or rather, melee is removed) the stop attack line can be removed.

    /castsequence reset=1 Hand of Gul'Dan, Imp Swarm, Grimoire: Felguard, Dark Soul: Knowledge, Corruption, Hand of Gul'Dan, Metamorphosis, Doom
    /console Sound_EnableSFX 0
    /use x
    /use y
    /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
    /console Sound_EnableSFX 1
    /stopattack


    Any ideas how to stretch this out so the first meta lasts the full duration of Dark Soul?

  2. #322
    @Xskarma
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    We don't know you, as you've never posted here before, you insult and belittle people, and bring 0 proof to the table about your claim that doing things your way is a measured DPS increase, and yet you expect us to fawn over you and thank you for bringing us these nuggets of awesome knowledge. Can't you at least see how you are rubbing people the wrong way and being counter productive to what you hope to achieve i.e. getting everybody to use a better Demo opening.
    I dont know you ppl i came here i saw lots of stupid things like 0 > 48k when i pointed this out i was insult by you ppl. You didnt get ANY proof, you didnt get ANY arguments, if you gave any - it was about totally different things that we or i was talking about.

    As long as you act the way you do and bring no proof to the tab
    Well the funnies thing that i was the only persone here who made proof and who made an argument - when i've posted that EXTRA SF is much better than NO SF. Then trolling from "your side" started. Then again i gave you "proof" (like someone said) and gave you my DPS information.

    @CDshaidar
    No, holding off on your active CDs (of which all are longer than 40 seconds) for that long is a 5k dps loss on a single target encounter with Lust blown at the start.
    because ...
    Or only im the one who needs to give proof ?

    English is clearly not your first language
    Ah mate you've got me ... Thats the reason why im bad demo player.

    It was only matter of time when someone would make such an "argument"


    @klogaroth - ok you gave us some obvious information - for what ? Still want to say that farm status boss DPS > progress one ?

    Ask your leaders what player they would like to have. Topping progress DPS and ignoring farm, or failing at progress DPS and doing 100% on farm raids. Anyway you wont go farm if you wont kill that boss at progress first. Yes - there are some bosses where your personal DPS will be even more depended from your raid/luck than from you. But EXACTLY same situation will be on farm. If you think that you can see how skillfull is certain player because he asked 24 other ppl to work for his top DPS - well, tbh i wont comment that thing

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post


    @CDshaidar

    because ...
    Or only im the one who needs to give proof ?
    The language was me giving you the benefit of the doubt in that you weren't being a douche, but lacked the understanding of the language to correctly express yourself.

    I don't need to prove that imps, doom guard, doom, etc benefit from a pre pot and lust. You need to show us where your hypothetical opening makes up for that OBVIOUS loss in dps. The math just isn't there to support it and you're being obtuse in your attempts to avoid the inevitable admitting that you are wrong. Keep in mind that ALL of this is ignoring the fact that delaying your CDs by 40 seconds has a 20% chance on a fight of unknown length of reducing the number of times you can use them by one.

    Go learn to math or argue before you get involved in a debate about numbers.

    I will give you the point that the only logs I consider valid are progression logs as guilds aiming for kills are much less likely to allow for things that benefit only person dps and not the raid. Sadly this doesn't make you any less wrong and off base about everything else you're spouting.
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  4. #324
    I feel like this thread has become derailed. Personal attacks are being made by all sides and very little actual information can be found in the last few pages. There was a claim made that a pre-cast pre-pot Soul Fire + non-buffed Demonic Calling Imp is more damage than the damage done by a fully buffed Demonic Calling Imp. Doing this is in practice very hard to pull off. It's very easy to try for yourself:

    Target Dummy Dark Intent Only
    pre-cast pre-pot:
    Soul Fire: 45,824
    Demonic Calling Imp: 100,431
    Total Damage: 146,255 + 30 Demonic Fury

    pre-pot (no Soul Fire):
    Demonic Calling Imp: 125,343

    Target Dummy Dark Intent + Food + Flask
    pre-cast pre-pot:
    Soul Fire: 51,060
    Demonic Calling Imp: 149,935
    Total Damage: 200,995 + 30 Demonic Fury gain.

    pre-pot(no Soul Fire):
    Demonic Calling Imp: 273,024

    I did more tests and the results shifted between the two strategies, but overall favored not pre-cast pre-potting. This may change with gear and stat weights. I'm guessing it's going to vary based on the Imp's crits, but in the end it comes down to a difference of +/- a few tens of thousands of damage either way. That's damage, not dps, and is negligible. However, pre-cast pre-potting carries a large risk of denying the use of a second pot later in the fight, as that window of opportunity where Soul Fire is in the air and your tank pulls is extremely small. High risk for marginal gain, no gain, or marginal loss of damage.

    Please, let's not derail this thread with further arguing. I love the information that comes through here, let's keep it going that way.

  5. #325
    @CDshaidar
    Keep in mind that ALL of this is ignoring the fact that delaying your CDs by 40 seconds has a 20% chance on a fight of unknown length of reducing the number of times you can use them by one.
    You want to tell me that after watching videos, after 20-30 wipes on that boss you still dont know how long is that fight ?


    But seems that you need proof - not giving any by yourself - here you are:
    FENG:
    - i've got 4 DS 80 sec uptime - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8.../?s=717&e=1212
    - Zinnin 3 DS 60 sec uptime - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4819&e=5322
    GARAJAL:
    - i've got 2 DS 40 sec uptime - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i.../?s=904&e=1259
    - Zinnin 3 DS 60 sec uptime - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8777&e=9132

    Why i've got only 2 ? First one i've casted after leaving totem (second spawned), second after leaving another one. If i would cast DS at start after first 5 sec of the fight i would be able to recast it after ONLY ONE totem and then 25 sec after i've left from last totem my guild entered

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FWCMzLr6oM

    here you are video from that kill - again as a proof. 5 sec is pull, 10 sec casting DS, 2:10 able to cast next one but i cant since at 2:16 im entering next totem so im able to cast second DS at 2:44, next one is 4:44, but last totem group (where i was) are leaving spirit world at 4:20.

    So i've chose to use DS on 2x full 30 sec 22% buff than 1 DS for 10-15 sec duration without buff, 1 DS with full 30 sec full 22% buff and 1 DS 5 sec full 22% buff.

    SPIRIT KINGS:
    - i've got 5DS 99 sec uptime http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...2/?s=112&e=708
    - Zinnin 5DS 100sec uptime http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3674&e=4318

    IMPERIAL normal
    - i've got 3DS 55 sec uptime http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...2/?s=642&e=979
    - Zinnin 3 ds 60 sec uptime http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3099&e=3480

    BLADE LORD normal
    - i've got 3 DS 60 sec uptime http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4...24/?s=62&e=469
    - Zinnin 3 DS 60 sec uptime http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5466&e=5874


    Those are proofs that you was able to check by yourself - and it was very easy to do. Still i dont see any from your side. Like in whole this coversation. You didnt get ANY proof, ANY argument for your statements - but you demand this from others.
    @Avido77
    There was a claim made that a pre-cast pre-pot Soul Fire + non-buffed Demonic Calling Imp is more damage than the damage done by a fully buffed Demonic Calling Imp
    No
    No
    No

    Cmon guys - im bad in english but it seems that you have problems with understanding what someone wrote.


    There was a claim made that a pre-cast pre-pot Soul Fire + non-buffed Demonic Calling Imp is more damage than the damage done by NOT PRE-CASTING SF in situation where we are not loosing HUGE DPS on using DS at 250-300 demonic fury.


    But even with those conditions your calculations are wrong.

    Hand of Gul'dan
    Imp Swarm
    Service Pet
    Dark Soul
    Summon Doomguard
    Hand of Gul'dan
    Corruption
    Metamorphosis
    Doom

    This is Zinnin opener

    So one the one had we have:

    0 sec HoG,
    1 sec imp swarm (5 imps)
    2 sec service pet + DS
    3 sec doomguard
    4 sec HoG
    5 sec corr
    6 sec meta
    7 sec doom
    8 sec touch of chaos spawning imp with 12 sec DS duration and about 7 sec meta


    On the other:

    0 sec SF hits the target, imp spawned, HoG
    1 sec imp swarm (5 imps)
    2 sec service pet + DS
    3 sec doomguard
    4 sec HoG
    5 sec corr
    6 sec meta
    7 sec doom
    8 sec touch of chaos

    So its SF + imp with Longer DS duration !!!
    Last edited by kandalanu; 2012-11-04 at 08:17 AM.

  6. #326
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    I am done with this argument. Your logs aren't showing me any proof of what your saying if you are looking at just the openings. The only thing I really gathered from these logs is that you are not using Imp Swarm or GoServ so you are putting less emphasis on cooldowns, and more on passive play, which also means you aren't going to see as much of a dps loss for timing cooldowns less optimally. Obviously what your doing is working for you, gratz.
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2012-11-04 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #327
    If i remember good GoServ has also 2 min CD just like DS - so its mainly used same time = no difference

    Only Wild Imps CD is different - but if you are just waiting with this CD for DS to buff imp dmg without using it immediately (getting 1 extra imp each timefrom demonic calling) = also no difference.

    So in that case - YES my logs shows that this statement:
    Keep in mind that ALL of this is ignoring the fact that delaying your CDs by 40 seconds has a 20% chance on a fight of unknown length of reducing the number of times you can use them by one.
    For 2 min CDs in almost all fights we had so far in MOP

    its just a false.

  8. #328
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    Because of the fact that Imp Swarm is front loaded you cannot look at the logs of mine or yours and get a proper comparison. You would have to look at entire fight lengths to tell the difference between Imp swarm and not using it. And since looking at the whole fight makes looking at an opener in logs completely worthless using our logs as proof just isn't doing anything.

    I don't like using logs to begin with because there is too much human error to prove a point over differences in rotation unless the difference is large enough. In this case playing passive (upremacy \ demonic calling) versus active (service \ imp swarm) are not a huge difference in play or sims to use logs to prove a point. That is why simcraft is such a useful tool because you can actually see the dps variance over several thousand attempts.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post

    0 sec HoG,
    1 sec imp swarm (5 imps)
    2 sec service pet + DS
    3 sec doomguard
    4 sec HoG
    5 sec corr
    6 sec meta
    7 sec doom
    8 sec touch of chaos spawning imp with 12 sec DS duration and about 7 sec meta


    On the other:

    0 sec SF hits the target, imp spawned, HoG
    1 sec imp swarm (5 imps)
    2 sec service pet + DS
    3 sec doomguard
    4 sec HoG
    5 sec corr
    6 sec meta
    7 sec doom
    8 sec touch of chaos

    So its SF + imp with Longer DS duration !!!
    You already have a 1 second GCD? ;p

    This thread is not for arguing about theories. It is a compendium of information followed by a Q and A. If you feel something is wrong, post your claim with numbers to back it up. Someone will answer you. It will either be incorporated into the main post or it will not.

    If you want to argue about theories, make a new thread, discuss it there, come back here with your results.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2012-11-04 at 11:18 AM.

  10. #330
    Because of the fact that Imp Swarm is front loaded you cannot look at the logs of mine or yours and get a proper comparison.
    Only Wild Imps CD is different
    Is my english really so bad thatyou cant understand this sentence ? If yes - im sorry.

    I don't like using logs
    I dont like using logs aswell. Thats why i used logs ONLY for ppl who DEMANDS it as a proof of something. ONLY because of that.

    Also i didnt used logs as a proof for better/worse OPENER but when someone talks about using CD.


    So again when your trying to tell me that im using logs to give proof about opener - its a false statement, and again i must ask you to comment things ive wrote not things you THINK i've wroted.

    In this case playing passive (upremacy \ demonic calling) versus active (service \ imp swarm) are not a huge difference in play or sims to use logs to prove a point. That is why simcraft is such a useful tool because you can actually see the dps variance over several thousand attempts.
    Again you couldnt be more wrong.

    Those difference are not huge when your using Simcraft - they can be huge when your actually fighting certain bosses.

    You already have a 1 second GCD? ;p
    you dont ?
    Last edited by kandalanu; 2012-11-04 at 12:29 PM.

  11. #331
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Again you couldnt be more wrong.

    Those difference are not huge when your using Simcraft - they can be huge when your actually fighting certain bosses.
    The difference CAN be huge if you cannot use cooldowns when planned and have to delay them. However that isn't the case on most fights, and in fact playing cooldown heavy can be good on many fights.

    The discussion I was trying to start was about opening rotations, which can be proven quite easily with simcraft because MOST fights are simple patchwerk at the start, which is what simcraft is best at modeling.

    The discussion I wasn't trying to start was whether or not to use GoSup or GoServ on a specific fight, or whether or not Imp Swarm is useful. Mostly because those are pretty dependent on the fight you are doing \ playstyle.

  12. #332
    I'm done with this discussion, it's not worth my time arguing with someone who says you can wait 40 seconds for DS but then shows me logs of a 5 second wait. This argument was started, by you claiming that a precast soul fire was worth more than the proposed opening. Since then you've changed your position and reasons for this being the case so many times that it appears that even you can't remember what you are trying to show us. You logs do not back up your statements and actually show that you are missing out on a lot of potential dps with your strategy.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  13. #333
    Here's a profile I built 'delaying' the first use of DS until you have 750 Fury, refreshing Corruption manually when below 500 Fury and using Doomguard at the Execute.

    Code:
    actions=curse_of_the_elements,if=debuff.magic_vulnerability.down
    actions+=/jade_serpent_potion,if=target.health.pct<=20
    actions+=/dark_soul,if=demonic_fury<=750
    actions+=/service_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_service.enabled,if=demonic_fury<=750
    actions+=/grimoire_of_sacrifice,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled
    actions+=/summon_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled&buff.grimoire_of_sacrifice.down
    actions+=/melee
    actions+=/felguard:felstorm
    actions+=/wrathguard:wrathstorm
    actions+=/run_action_list,name=aoe,if=active_enemies>3
    actions+=/summon_doomguard,if=buff.dark_soul.up&target.health.pct<=20|target.time_to_die>=60
    actions+=/corruption,cycle_targets=1,if=(!ticking|remains<tick_time)&target.time_to_die>=6&demonic_fury<499&miss_react
    actions+=/doom,cycle_targets=1,if=(!ticking|remains<tick_time|(ticks_remain+1<n_ticks&buff.dark_soul.up))&target.time_to_die>=30&miss_react
    actions+=/metamorphosis,if=buff.dark_soul.up|dot.corruption.remains<5|demonic_fury>=900|demonic_fury>=target.time_to_die*30
    actions+=/cancel_metamorphosis,if=dot.corruption.remains>20&buff.dark_soul.down&demonic_fury<=750&target.time_to_die>30
    actions+=/imp_swarm
    actions+=/hand_of_guldan,if=!in_flight&dot.shadowflame.remains<travel_time+action.shadow_bolt.cast_time
    actions+=/touch_of_chaos,cycle_targets=1,if=dot.corruption.remains<20&demonic_fury>700
    actions+=/soul_fire,if=buff.molten_core.react
    actions+=/touch_of_chaos
    actions+=/life_tap,if=mana.pct<50
    actions+=/shadow_bolt
    actions+=/fel_flame,moving=1
    actions+=/life_tap
    It actually comes within 600 DPS of the optimal profile using my gear, so there's not a huge amount in it to be honest; but it does give you a bit more flexibility (read: Spikier damage) and I think will work better with a late Heroism (as so many fights have this tier) - not checked where/how to change that yet, but if someone else is willing to give it a go...

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Here's a profile I built 'delaying' the first use of DS until you have 750 Fury, refreshing Corruption manually when below 500 Fury and using Doomguard at the Execute.

    It actually comes within 600 DPS of the optimal profile using my gear, so there's not a huge amount in it to be honest; but it does give you a bit more flexibility and I think will work better with a late Heroism (as so many fights have this tier) - not checked where/how to change that yet, but if someone else is willing to give it a go...
    Did you copy the wrong action list?
    actions+=/dark_soul,if=demonic_fury<=750 wouldn't this use DS if DF is less than 750 which it is at the start of the fight?
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  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    Did you copy the wrong action list?
    actions+=/dark_soul,if=demonic_fury<=750 wouldn't this use DS if DF is less than 750 which it is at the start of the fight?
    That's correct. It'd only use dark soul if you're under or at 750 fury.

    Jessicka, you should use > rather than <= to achieve the intended effect.



    As for the discussion on the opener, I haven't seen any concrete proof that one way is better than the other by any margin larger than what's affected by normal RNG. That being said, the opener where you delay is significantly easier to pull off, so if I was playing demo I'd probably go with the delay over pre-cast just for it's simplicity for pretty much the same damage.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    Did you copy the wrong action list?
    actions+=/dark_soul,if=demonic_fury<=750 wouldn't this use DS if DF is less than 750 which it is at the start of the fight?
    Derp. Yeah, it's a 4k DPS loss.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Derp. Yeah, it's a 4k DPS loss.
    :-D you'd be surprised how many times I had to reread that line to make sure I wasn't being an idiot.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    :-D you'd be surprised how many times I had to reread that line to make sure I wasn't being an idiot.
    One more time than I did ._.

  19. #339
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    Dear fellow demon lords (and ladies if you wish )

    Skipping all of that crappy chit-chat in the last pages I would like to return to a single idea prepull prepot- soul fire. Why should you cast soul fire and waste another ~1,5 sec of your prepot when you can prepot and cast shadow bolt instead and anyway spawn the imp, place some extra dps and gain extra fury? Have anyone tried this out on a raid dummy or squeezing this sequence in the simcraft and figure out a dps gain/loss?

    Additionally I would like to ask why no one casts another shadowbolt or proced soul fire (in the beginning of the fight that is) right after you cast second HoG and before entering meta for the first time? I haven't checked difference in DPS, however what I noticed was that difference between casting this extra SB(SF) and not casting it was staying in meta for the full duration of DS and prepot/on use trinket (yes I'm not lucky enough to get DMC and cosmos /cry). In other words this extra SB(SF) allowed me to spam ToC for the whole duration of onpull buffs.


    EDIT: typos 8(

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Daggot Ur View Post
    Why should you cast soul fire and waste another ~1,5 sec of your prepot when you can prepot and cast shadow bolt instead and anyway spawn the imp, place some extra dps and gain extra fury? Have anyone tried this out on a raid dummy or squeezing this sequence in the simcraft and figure out a dps gain/loss?
    If I understand correctly you seem under the impression that you pre-pot and THEN cast a Soulfire. That's not what the guy had in mind, and why it was so difficult to pull of. His idea was to cast Soul Fire and THEN take a prepot, but before going into combet yet. So you wouldn't waste any time on your pre-pot that way.
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