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  1. #281
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    are you serious ? those kinds of words from persone that wasresearching for best opener ?
    You don't lose the buff, you can use it whenever you want. So you can:

    1) Use it on pull with no trinkets \ no procs \ no cooldowns

    2) Use it once everything is procced \ trinkets are up \ cooldowns are up

    Doing optimal damage isn't always about 'using things as fast as possible'. With the Imp Swarm glyph you don't gain any more Demonic Calling until Imp Swarm is off cooldown so you lose NOTHING by delaying it until procs happen.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    just l2 use pot after casting SF/before actually pull ? Not to easy but doable



    are you serious ? those kinds of words from persone that wasresearching for best opener ?

    So one the one hand:
    "guys lets think how to increase our dmg/dps"

    on the other:
    "Chill out, dont rush we dont want extra dmg"



    for me you can talk even about bananas, really dont care much about it. Just its about time to realize that theoretycrafting / simcraft has nothing compare with playing WoW.
    Chill out dude. This is the 1 comprehensive Demonology thread, this is where all the best possible tips and tricks should go concerning Demo. That means theorycrafting. If you don't like theorycrafting you should probably not be in this thread picking fights with esteemed theorycrafters/contributers.
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  3. #283
    Doing optimal damage isn't always about 'using things as fast as possible'.
    Its ALWAYS using things that can/need to be used as fast as possible.

    this is where all the best possible tips and tricks should go concerning Demo. That means theorycrafting.
    WTF ? since when theorycraftic gives you tips and tricks ? Theorycrafting gives you only illusionary DPS/DMG on a fight that doesnt exists in WoW.

    I always thought that you can search for tips and tricks from something that you know very good/perfectly. That you need to know well each fight - cos each fight is totally different that you must play different. Even if they seems to be similiar.
    Your personal DPS is not constant even on same fight ! Its sooo many different factors that theory cant check them all. Mayby about 80% of your DPS is depending on your own char (items, gemming, reforging etc., your skills, your game style etc.) -> here theory CAN be a bit ussefull.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Its ALWAYS using things that can/need to be used as fast as possible.



    WTF ? since when theorycraftic gives you tips and tricks ? Theorycrafting gives you only illusionary DPS/DMG on a fight that doesnt exists in WoW.

    I always thought that you can search for tips and tricks from something that you know very good/perfectly. That you need to know well each fight - cos each fight is totally different that you must play different. Even if they seems to be similiar.
    Your personal DPS is not constant even on same fight ! Its sooo many different factors that theory cant check them all. Mayby about 80% of your DPS is depending on your own char (items, gemming, reforging etc., your skills, your game style etc.) -> here theory CAN be a bit ussefull.
    Okay. To clear something up.


    Theorycrafting DOES NOT EQUAL Simcrafting

    Simcrafting is an invaluable tool in helping theorycraft, but theorycraft includes thinking about situations and how best to approach them. Theorycrafting is all about applying theory to the game to identify optimal ways to play the game in a variety of situations. (After all, the game is literally only an extremely large and complex math problem when you think about it at it's most basic level.) EVEN THEN, simcraft is no longer just about single target fights. It includes the capability to spawn adds, simulate entire boss fights, simulate raid damage, heavy movement fights, etc. If you think Simcraft is only about pure single target simming, then I suggest you look more into Simcraft as you're missing out on a LOT of it's useful functionality.


    Also, somethings do NOT need to be used on CD for maximum effect. For Example, say there is a 7 minute fight. You can get off 4 Dark Souls in that period of time.

    0min
    2min
    4min
    6min.

    Now, you can pop your dark soul at 6 minutes (as you'd say you should) and get benefit. However, say the boss hits execute phase around 6:30. Why would you pop it at 6 minutes (asap) when you can save it to pair with increased damage in execute and still get the same number of cooldowns in in the fight?

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Its ALWAYS using things that can/need to be used as fast as possible.
    Using this playstyle surely you would then be going into meta as soon as you have enough fury to use one or two ToC? What about responding to procs? What about waiting for an AOE opportunity rather than using your felguards felstorm on CD?

    Its not always about using things as fast as possible. Demonology however is about stacking as much dps into your cooldowns as possible. What Zinnin was suggesting was delaying that extra imp so that it benefits the most from dark soul and procs.
    Last edited by Whabam; 2012-10-31 at 08:57 AM.

  6. #286
    Demonology is now a resource driven class more than it is priority driven. Using things 'as fast as possible' is absolutely not what the spec is about, because mispent Fury is the biggest DPS loss you can suffer.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You're using a Wand? If you are, the 'Shoot' effect interferes with the Meta "melee" attacks; it's a bug that's been around since Beta and shows no sign of a quick resolution.
    Yeah I was using wand, and searched google about this, everyone saying that there is a bug about metamorphosis with wand, so I decided to use dagger instead of wand, now my problem has gone. Thanks.

  8. #288
    you think Simcraft is only about pure single target simming
    God tip for you - dont say what someone thinks - you will be almost always wrong. I know whats Simcraft is, i know what options it has, im all the time watching its evolution etc. Im never talking about something i just dont know - thats why i must know Simcraft good to be able to comment this.

    So once again SIMCRAFT gives you only illusionary DPS/DMG on a fight that doesnt exists in WoW. Whats the funniest thing - you should realize it by yourself, specially after things you've wroted in your post. You know that there is "extremely large and complex math problem" but you cant see that Simcraft just ignore most of it that is really important in practice - EVEN with those "new" options for different fights.



    Also, somethings do NOT need to be used on CD for maximum effect
    STOP telling me what i've wrote when i didnt wrote this ... Mate read once again whole sentence: Its ALWAYS using things that can/need to be used as fast as possible. EACH word here is important - if you will ignore any - whole sentence will have different meaning. Thats why i even wont comment whobam and jessica posts - its usseles

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    God tip for you - dont say what someone thinks - you will be almost always wrong. I know whats Simcraft is, i know what options it has, im all the time watching its evolution etc. Im never talking about something i just dont know - thats why i must know Simcraft good to be able to comment this.

    So once again SIMCRAFT gives you only illusionary DPS/DMG on a fight that doesnt exists in WoW. Whats the funniest thing - you should realize it by yourself, specially after things you've wroted in your post. You know that there is "extremely large and complex math problem" but you cant see that Simcraft just ignore most of it that is really important in practice - EVEN with those "new" options for different fights.




    STOP telling me what i've wrote when i didnt wrote this ... Mate read once again whole sentence: Its ALWAYS using things that can/need to be used as fast as possible. EACH word here is important - if you will ignore any - whole sentence will have different meaning. Thats why i even wont comment whobam and jessica posts - its usseles
    Mate, please elaborate on what you are actually doing in this thread, cause at the moment you seem to just be busy picking fights about the usefulness of Simcraft and theorycrafting. You started off with a point that was refuted, but the past posts you're just arguing with people. Give it a rest allready, unless there was some actual point to your arguing. This thread is for theorycrafting and tips and tricks and questions and answers. Simcraft is a big part of that for this game, whether you like it or not, so either accept that people in this thread use it and contribute, or just leave the thread be if there is nothing in here for you.
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  10. #290
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    that's weird, is it just me or is thread starting to get a little stuffy?
    can somone open a window or something?

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by MSW View Post
    Yeah I was using wand, and searched google about this, everyone saying that there is a bug about metamorphosis with wand, so I decided to use dagger instead of wand, now my problem has gone. Thanks.
    You can still use a wand if you write macros for each of the spells you use in meta:
    #showtooltip spellname
    /cast spellname
    /stopattack

    It's a work around for any time your wand is more dps despite losing out on the auto damage you get with your other weapon.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  12. #292
    and tips and tricks
    This is what im doing in this thread, trying to give you some tips and tricks. Most of them are - stop spending 90% of your time in usseles and pointless Simulationcraft since you can spend this time much better. Go for 10-15 minutes a day on dummy and practice casting SF from max range and then instant potion with "pull timer".

    You really dont see irony that in topic where ppl are actually asking/giving advice how to increase DPS that someone is trying to tell that something was defuted only becouse its hard to do ...

    Yes i see that Simcraft is a big part of this game for really many many ppl, but that doesnt meant its something good and that its really has something similiar with real raiding.


    Anyway about theorycrafting - i didnt saw here at all any theorycrafting about bosses. Atm each boss fight is specific each has totally different mechanics that can make you will get/lose DPS. You all are talking only strict about something that you can see from Simulationcraft - you are talking only about simulationcraft fights not about wowo raid fights.

  13. #293
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    So this is tested on a training dummy, obviously not going to be the same as raid damage, but gives you a good idea on how the numbers play out.

    Soulfire hit (prepull) - 48.6k
    Wild Imp (prepull)- 155k
    Wild Imp (used with cooldowns) 218k


    If the Imp I used during cooldowns instead it does 218k, so since that first imp only gets about 50% of its up-time with cooldowns you so using the soulfire on pull is ~11k damage LOSS, because the Imp ends up being used when cooldowns aren't up. And that isn't taking into account the fact that if you screw up the pre-pot you just lost a 2nd pot.

    But again, the overall damage difference between the two is 10 dps...which isn't something that is going to be noticeable, or measurable at the end of a fight. It also has absolutely no impact on that opening rotation that I posted.

    I didn't refute your claim because it is 'difficult' to do what you described, I refuted it because at best you might gain 10 dps (which isn't likely), on average it is a dps wash where you gain no dps, and at worst you lose a second pot which is a noticeable dps loss.

    This might not be the most precise of testing, but it just proves what simcraft already showed when I simmed it out earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    This is what im doing in this thread, trying to give you some tips and tricks. Most of them are - stop spending 90% of your time in usseles and pointless Simulationcraft since you can spend this time much better. Go for 10-15 minutes a day on dummy and practice casting SF from max range and then instant potion with "pull timer".
    And if you really think that time spent in Simcraft is going to be less a dps increase then learning how to do a pointless pre cast \ pre pot then you are just plain wrong. Sorry.
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2012-11-01 at 09:35 AM.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    (blablablabla lots of bullshit).

    MATE WHERE THE HELL I WAS TALKING ABOUT USING WILD IMPS PRE PULL ???

    Are your reading skills are so low as your playing skills ?


    You really dont know whats the meaning of this simply sentence:


    Where is pre pull casting soul of fire to get extra dmg/extra imp spawn ?

    YOU DO know hows Demonic Calling works ??? YOU DO ??? You know the difference between Demonic Calling and Imp Swarm ?


    You are great example why ppl should stop using this Simcraft shit - you are using this thing instead of your brain.



    So its just obviously:
    Soulfire hit (prepull) - 48.6k
    Advantage - but no ... so many post you was trying to tell me that:


    48.6 < 0

    just becouse Simcraft told you that

  15. #295

  16. #296
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    YOU DO know hows Demonic Calling works ??? YOU DO ??? You know the difference between Demonic Calling and Imp Swarm ?
    I don't think YOU understand how Demonic Calling works. Every 20s (24 With Imp Swarm Glyphed) you get a buff that makes your next Soulfire \ Shadow bolt \ Touch of Chaos spawn an Imp. Because you are not in combat pre-pull you always start with the Demonic Calling buff.

    Imp Swarm, when used, makes it so you no longer get Demonic Calling procs, and instead spawn you 5 imps instantly. Which is one less then you get if you don't use the Imp Swarm glyph.

    Where is pre pull casting soul of fire to get extra dmg/extra imp spawn ?
    If you pre-cast a soulfire, you will use up your Demonic Calling buff right away before you use cooldowns \ procs \ trinkets. You will then use Imp Swarm which will make it so you don't receive anymore Demonic Calling procs until Imp Swarm is off cooldown.

    If you don't cast soulfire on the pull your one and only Demonic Calling for the start of the fight will spawn right after you pop DS which will also be the same time trinkets \ weapon enchants have procced. Which generally means that it will do a little more damage then if you had spawned it right on the pull.

    If that walkthrough isn't clear enough, let me try to make it even more clear and concise; You will only get ONE Demonic calling Imp until Imp Swarm comes off cooldown over a minute and half into the fight. Using the buff earlier or later DOES NOT mean more imps, because you CANNOT get Demonic Calling while Imp Swarm is on cooldown.


    EDIT: Looks like we are finally getting a wand fix....in 5.1....
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2012-11-03 at 05:58 AM.

  17. #297
    Wouldn't call it 'fix'; they just remove the mechanic completely and buff our Doom in return...

  18. #298
    I'm under the impression that something changed in the opener from the first page.

    So basically, you guys aren't waiting to get at least 750 fury to blow the first DS, right?

  19. #299
    And then ppl are shocking why i think that Simcraft is the worst thing that player can use ...

    You have there your starting list you think its ok and now you wont change it even for a bit. You dont even think about its, seems to hard for you.

    It seems to be so hard to precast SF - get this 48k EXTRA FREE dmg, get a imp, then for next 20 sec cast other spells to get SECOND imp and then just use your CD. You will get only profits from it.
    - extra imp
    - extra 48k dmg
    - 2x HoG ticks before poping meta
    - more demonic fury for Meta + DS - poping DS and meta in first 5 sec even with imp swarm means you wont use DS for the whole duration of nuke meta phase - what will be really huge DPS lost.


    But no - you already have one of the worst start ive seen on this forum and still you are not flexible. This is how theorycrafting works for you ? You still dont know that you must be ready for change some things during fights ? You cant even change it on your start "rotation".


    Anyway do as you want - dunno why i want to get more skillfull demo players ... anyway if there will be much more bad ones - mayby blizzard will hear their crying and will buff demo even more


    So basically, you guys aren't waiting to get at least 750 fury to blow the first DS, right
    Bah dont even try to tell Zinnin that he is doing something wrong, as you can see its no use. I tried to point just one little thing - not crush his whole start - and you see what problems i had


    But yes the funnies things are that those kind of players like him - who just dont know how to play demo locks - are mostly crying on forums that demo is weak.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    And then ppl are shocking why i think that Simcraft is the worst thing that player can use ...

    You have there your starting list you think its ok and now you wont change it even for a bit. You dont even think about its, seems to hard for you.

    It seems to be so hard to precast SF - get this 48k EXTRA FREE dmg, get a imp, then for next 20 sec cast other spells to get SECOND imp and then just use your CD. You will get only profits from it.
    - extra imp
    - extra 48k dmg
    - 2x HoG ticks before poping meta
    - more demonic fury for Meta + DS - poping DS and meta in first 5 sec even with imp swarm means you wont use DS for the whole duration of nuke meta phase - what will be really huge DPS lost.


    But no - you already have one of the worst start ive seen on this forum and still you are not flexible. This is how theorycrafting works for you ? You still dont know that you must be ready for change some things during fights ? You cant even change it on your start "rotation".


    Anyway do as you want - dunno why i want to get more skillfull demo players ... anyway if there will be much more bad ones - mayby blizzard will hear their crying and will buff demo even more




    Bah dont even try to tell Zinnin that he is doing something wrong, as you can see its no use. I tried to point just one little thing - not crush his whole start - and you see what problems i had


    But yes the funnies things are that those kind of players like him - who just dont know how to play demo locks - are mostly crying on forums that demo is weak.
    I'm really asking that, because of the wand bug i didn't made a single raid as Demonology. Now i got a very luck drop from Scholomance and looted the staff, so i can
    play demonology again, swapping specs when i feel the need or the pleasure. I really enjoy Affliction since its a real copy&paste of my former Spriest from 4.0.6 / 4.1; but listening to the double "uh uh uh uh" from 2 lolguards while roflstorming just fills me with joy.

    And oh yeah, i do better cleaving at the first boss.Dunno if its just me but multidotting its very solid and less prone to RNG like waiting for nightfall procs for ever.

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