MoP Rogue Abilities

[Incineration]

Weird, my previous post just disappeared. I'll do my best trying to get the same point across.

You got it for the most part, but it's more about so much of our damage being passive already that removing this one thing feels like a big blow. It's just yet another thing that's almost always going to be used at the exact same period of time. Bandit's Guile falls into that category as well actually. But at least you can line up cooldowns with that, what are you going to do with this new Revealing Strike?



No you are not mistaken, you are right in that we should be pooling some energy before using the Revealing Strike. But your whole rotation still comes to a stop when it's time to reapply Revealing Strike and it's always going to happen at the exact same time. I just personally don't like this change. It feels clunky and out of place for the Combat spec. And it's not like Combat was very exciting to begin with in terms of procs and a complicated rotation. It's a little big a signature Rogue thing but it just feels too 'fixed' right now.

To be quite honest, I don't mind the passive damage of Combat. It's Combat. That's what the spec is about. It's very straightforward, there are no hidden secrets... Rvs, SS, Eviscerate, repeat... The problem, as I see it, is that Sub and Assassination aren't really any different right now. It's fine to have ONE passive spec that excels at sustained fights... It's BAD to have 3 passive specs that excel at sustained fights... Because at that point, what matters isn't really preference. It's just a matter of "what has the least drawbacks?" And that has to be Combat.

It's that lack of having an appropriate spec for most encounters that is such a hard blow to us as a class. Going back to our beloved DK's, if a fight prefers sustained dps they can always spec into Unholy. If it's switch burst or burst of any kind, Frost will do the job AND THEN SOME. Frost even works both ways, it'll also handle well in sustained fights, so preference actually becomes an option, to a certain degree. And this is a hybrid class, mind you.

Rogues? We have nothing of that sort. At least Sub had the potential of becoming OUR Frost spec. On live, at the end of Cata, Sub actually has some good burst in its Backstab, especially if Find Weakness is applied. But now that Eviscerate is our "new Backstab" even Sub has just become a clone of Combat. I hate to repeat myself, but we need some clear roles for our specs and some spec-differentiation.

[banyentertainment]

Don`t know what you crying about, good rogues absolutetly DESTROY my disc/shadow priest
The thing is half of the rogue population is bad, they only rolled their class to be cheap, and because it is overpowered.
Real rogue still have a ball and are scary to face

As far as pve is concerned, ye..i give you that, horribly boring and lackluster

[Trefort]

I have to post few posts because I would like to post the link for my PvP video. It´s good, isn´t it?

Mod Edit: User was infracted for this post.

[Incineration]

Don`t know what you crying about, good rogues absolutetly DESTROY my disc/shadow priest
The thing is half of the rogue population is bad, they only rolled their class to be cheap, and because it is overpowered.
Real rogue still have a ball and are scary to face

As far as pve is concerned, ye..i give you that, horribly boring and lackluster

Your post reeks of live.

[Verain]

Don`t know what you crying about, good rogues absolutetly DESTROY my disc/shadow priest

On beta? Or on live?



Because we already know the answer.

[Sendai]

On beta? Or on live?



Because we already know the answer.

Must be live, because on beta shadow priests are scary. What's with the mini-vanish on low CD...

[Ambushu]

I think this feeling you get, that Rogues get no love, is because: their design is completely established. Rogues have a powerful, and iconic design, they always have. I suggests the fact that there is little change to the Class is a matter of "Don't fix what isn't broken".

This. blizzard has already stated that rogues are the most balanced class in the game and i agree. stop and think about it people always bitch about the rogue class on how we are too op and its somewhat true only for the fact that the other classes are underpowered. we don't need to be fixed numbers wise

[Verain]

Must be live, because on beta shadow priests are scary. What's with the mini-vanish on low CD...

Everybody got a 30 second vanish or something now :P

I mean, not rogues.

[Incineration]

This. blizzard has already stated that rogues are the most balanced class in the game and i agree. stop and think about it people always bitch about the rogue class on how we are too op and its somewhat true only for the fact that the other classes are underpowered. we don't need to be fixed numbers wise

I'm tempted to say, "Well, of course we're the most balanced class in the game! There's no difference between our specs! Balancing 1 spec is much easier than balancing 3!!!"

People bitch about us, not because we're "op", but because we have an extensive kit that enables us to "fix" almost any situation, but ONLY regarding PVP. We're sub-par/underwhelming in PVE, the only thing we actually do have in our PVE kit is Blade Flurry, the sole reason why Combat has become the mandatory spec of any serious raider. Another thing to note; They don't ALWAYS bitch about us!

That's a very important distinction to make.

They bitch about us NOW... They didn't bitch in 4.0. They didn't moan in 4.1. They're on their knees NOW, in 4.3. This isn't caused by good design, op design, buffs that got out of hand, or anything of the like. That's just a result of our scaling; We just scale way too well.

What Blizzard says is "the most balanced class" doesn't mean a thing. What does that even mean? "Most balanced"? The damage output is even between all rogue specs? The damage is even between the rogue class and the other classes? Or does it simply mean, the rogue class is the easiest to model? It's a pointless term to use. It's like saying, "The UK has the best sky!" It doesn't really tell you anything, it doesn't explain anything, it's just soothing words to calm the rogue masses.

---------- Post added 2012-08-18 at 07:55 PM ----------

Everybody got a 30 second vanish or something now :P

I mean, not rogues.

I'd say... Well, it IS and ISN'T justified. Stealth is tied to much more than just stealth for rogues, after all. Let's say they simply reduce the cooldown of Vanish to 1m30secs. They'd have to rebalanced the PVE damage output completely, due to Find Weakness uptime via Vanish being doubled.

However, when taking PVP into consideration, we now have several classes with low cooldown Vanish-like abilities, and ironically, the only ACTUAL stealth class doesn't... Which seems very strange...

[Eloosive]

If there is an argument that most definitely doesn't change my view, it's the one that was never presented to me. I'd like to direct you to the top-right corner of your screen, please, where you'll see the only button fit for people who show up on forums of debate and refuse to debate...

Oh, this is the "debate" forum. Please direct me to the "open discussion and inquiry" forum, I'm lost.

Mod Edit: User was infracted for this post.

[Incineration]

Oh, this is the "debate" forum. Please direct me to the "open discussion and inquiry" forum, I'm lost.

Mod Edit: User was infracted for this post.

Debate

- An argument, or discussion, usually in an ordered or formal setting, often with more than two people, generally ending with a vote or other decision.

- An informal and spirited but generally civil discussion of opposing views.

- Discussion of opposing views.



He didn't ask any questions, nor was he willing to debat- I'm, sorry! "Discuss" anything. Your point is moot.

[Chubbsmalone]

I don't think Blizzard understands how hard they are gutting Subtlety spec.

TBC, WOTLK, CATA: Backstab +30% crit, Ambush +60% crit chance, average crit chance with PvP gear = 30-40%
MOP: Talent 100% removed, average crit chance with PvP gear = 20-25%

This talent has been an essential part of the class for years; simply put, these abilities do SHIT damage if they don't crit. Keep in mind, they haven't supplemented the abilities in anyway, in fact their damage actually was REDUCED in addition to the +crit talent being removed.

All the other nerfs are fine, maybe even justified. Put completely removing this talent is a huge mistake and will ruin the spec. Assassination here we come!

[kilj]

All I know is its been the same since TBC.... Rogues always got the short end of the stick... then on the last patch before the end of the expansion we get buffed lol.... All I know is im sticking with the rogue for PvE, But I am prob going warrior or mage for pvp... Rogues are just god awwwful atm for pvp... Yes you can crush someone with cds... But you have to first catch up to them.. LOL rogues got no mobility now and it makes me /cry when a ret kites me

[Bovan]

Paralytic Poison people, it solved all my ''oh-my-god-the-sky-is-falling-mobility issues''. Who cares if other people can run faster than you or have better speed increases when you can just root them in place. At the moment, at level 85, with MoP talents and mechanics, we are in a great spot.

[kilj]

But you wouldnt take paralytic poison over Prey of the Weak...

[Sharlok]

Actually what Bovan just said is very true. I rarely play pvp and when I do I only play some random battlegrounds. I was very skeptical when I saw the new talents in beta and I still am skeptical, however, I do enjoy battlegrounds a lot more than I used to.

I guess regarding pvp I fall under the casual player category and I do feel that blizz has improved the game for people like me in that regard.

[Bovan]

But you wouldnt take paralytic poison over Prey of the Weak...

Really? Why not?

How much difference will +10% damage during a stun and being kited all day long be compared to full uptime on your target? Unless you are nuking an enemy flag carrier in a battleground with competent people (AKA people are actually helping you) Prey on the Weak doesn't really add a whole lot.

[Gentile911]

I feel that with any inspiration at all, Blizz could've come up with way better abilities than what we've been presented...
Why couldn't Shroud of Concealment be a raid-vanish!?
Why not make additional individual cooldowns that work differently for each spec, instead of just throwing another ability into the pot of shared abilities, further homogenizing the class?!
Why wasn't Crimson Tempest there to begin with.........?!??!?
...and where the hell are the remaining abilities?!?!???!?!??!?!!!??!??!?!?!?!?!

EDIT: I'm not saying Shadow Blades is bad per-say. But it HEAVILY favors one certain spec... Yeah, no shit, Combat. Combat emphasizes auto-attacks; Here we have a cooldown that lets auto attacks bypass armor, makes builders grant one additional CP, and it works with restless blades, letting it stay in PERFECT sync with Adrenalin Rush. That's a perfect cooldown for Combat! For Assassination....? Not too good... For Sub...? Meh...

How about a cooldown that gives Assassination something to do while being low on energy? Like an Assassination counterpart to Killing Spree. Maybe something like...

Accurate Assault
3 minute cooldown
Allows you to use 5 Dispatches, free of charge. Furthermore, if Envenom is present each Dispatch will increase its duration by 1 second.

This will grant Assassination the ability to have one complete Envenom cycle, free of charge, just so it can get back on track afterwards. Interesting cooldown, if I should say so myself. Spices up the gameplay a little.

I would have to slightly disagree with you on shadowblades being favored by combat. I think shadow blades favors combat and subtley. Remember subtleys mastery increases the speed of SnD which means more auto attack damage. Assassination already has poisons which are nice for bypassing armor though. But perhaps combat is slightly better than subtley in the sense that you are wielding weapons that do more damage than daggers, but I don't know the math behind it.

I don't think Blizzard understands how hard they are gutting Subtlety spec.

TBC, WOTLK, CATA: Backstab +30% crit, Ambush +60% crit chance, average crit chance with PvP gear = 30-40%
MOP: Talent 100% removed, average crit chance with PvP gear = 20-25%

This talent has been an essential part of the class for years; simply put, these abilities do SHIT damage if they don't crit. Keep in mind, they haven't supplemented the abilities in anyway, in fact their damage actually was REDUCED in addition to the +crit talent being removed.

All the other nerfs are fine, maybe even justified. Put completely removing this talent is a huge mistake and will ruin the spec. Assassination here we come!

What reason do we have to go subtley? Shadowstep is now obtainable for assassin lol.

[Incineration]

I would have to slightly disagree with you on shadowblades being favored by combat. I think shadow blades favors combat and subtley. Remember subtleys mastery increases the speed of SnD which means more auto attack damage. Assassination already has poisons which are nice for bypassing armor though. But perhaps combat is slightly better than subtley in the sense that you are wielding weapons that do more damage than daggers, but I don't know the math behind it.

Haste - Main stat of Combat, increases auto attack speed
Ambidexterity - Increases off-hand damage by 75%
Bandit's Guile - Increases all damage done by 10-20-30%
Adrenalin Rush - Increases melee attack speed by 20%

It favors Combat by a rather large margin. If lined up Shadow Dance, you could get some nasty Ambushes + Eviscerate off, but that's a rather mediocre use for a 3 minute cooldown. At best, you'd have it available twice a fight... And the auto-attack part, which literally makes up half the effect of the cooldown, is completely overshadowed.

It's just not a very well designed class-cooldown. As mentioned, it's fantastic for Combat, but mediocre for the remaining two specs.

[Sesshou]

I don't think Blizzard understands how hard they are gutting Subtlety spec.

Oh I agree they gutted sub pretty bad, but its not the damage/crit stuff... its them taking a bunch of sub's awesomeness and putting it on the talent tree and then going and screwing with our rotation. Your BS/ambush may do less, but your evis hits like a truck, whatever.

It favors Combat by a rather large margin. If lined up Shadow Dance, you could get some nasty Ambushes + Eviscerate off, but that's a rather mediocre use for a 3 minute cooldown. At best, you'd have it available twice a fight... And the auto-attack part, which literally makes up half the effect of the cooldown, is completely overshadowed.

It's just not a very well designed class-cooldown. As mentioned, it's fantastic for Combat, but mediocre for the remaining two specs.

Would you want to use SB during dance though? You do get more evis in under FW, but your auto attacks are already mitigating 70% of armor from FW. Wouldn't it be better to use it after FW is up?