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  1. #161
    The OP is quite well made and has some good points in it.
    The genre is not struggling, judging but the number of titles around.
    The more mmos around, the better.
    Every mmo around has some peculiarity in it that the specific fanbase found amusing.
    Not all titles under 5M subs are fail.
    Play what you have fun playin, even more than one title at a time (but i envy your spare time).
    Only jerks make "war" about videogames, and we're not jerks, right?
    Right?
    /hugs
    I am a leaf on the wind; watch how I soar.

    Also:
    Raegwine - Sylvari Elementalist; Caplock - Charr Engineer; Noah Quickfingers - Asura Thief; Amund Stormchaser - Norn Ranger

  2. #162
    Legendary! Rorcanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zipzo View Post
    If World of Warcraft re-released today in its current form...do you think it would build it's way back up to over 9 million subscribers?
    Yes, I do. Nobody but a blinded fanboi of some other game would claim that WoW only got so successful because it released in 2004, since that'd be denying the fact that it's a damned solid game and no matter how some vocal grumps complain, MOST people are smart enough to only pay for and play a game that they enjoy playing.

    It's like saying "Would Star Wars (the movies) have been such a huge success if they had been released today?"...of course. One must use common sense here though and imagine that IF these had been released today, then they would have effects/graphics and art style to match with them.

    But, quite frankly I feel that it's silly of people to compare the success of one game to that of WoW and their total sub number through the history. Just because an mmorpg never reaches 12 million (a SILLY big number) that doesn't mean it's dying, dead or the genre as a whole is dying.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-22 at 01:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Holydorf View Post
    The OP is quite well made and has some good points in it.
    The genre is not struggling, judging but the number of titles around.
    The more mmos around, the better.
    Every mmo around has some peculiarity in it that the specific fanbase found amusing.
    Not all titles under 5M subs are fail.
    Play what you have fun playin, even more than one title at a time (but i envy your spare time).
    Only jerks make "war" about videogames, and we're not jerks, right?
    Right?
    /hugs
    True words written down right here! /hug back.
    Last edited by Rorcanna; 2012-08-22 at 01:12 PM.

    That feeling when there's a new expansion out and you sit in a Garrison wondering what the hell to do because you are stuck on an entire continent like Timeless Isle, only with flightpaths to encourage afk travel coz "immersion".

  3. #163
    ok allow me to explain what stagnation means when it comes to the gaming industry.

    lets look at the FPS genre, a genre that has unarguably become bloated and stagnant.
    stagnation has nothing to do with lack of releases, it has to do with an lack of difference.

    in the case of MMORPGs(MMOs by themselves aren't genre, its a prefix that states that a game is played in a shared world) the genre has become stagnant in that all the big ticket releases have been MMORPGs with a hotkey based combat system set in a fantasy universe(starwars isn't scifi is future fantasy/normal fantasy).

    EQ, EQ2, WoW, GW, GW2, SWtoR, WAR, Rift, and Aion are all MMORPGs with a hotkey based combat set in a fantasy universe.
    I'm not even including the hundreds of clones spawned from these games.

    that is unarguably stagnation.

    the closest high-budget MMORPG to actually breaking the stagnation is Tera, from trying to be an action-RPG(it didn't really succeed in that regard) in addition to the politics system(i hope that doesn't end up like EVEonline).
    possibly the failed project Copernicus, assuming since KoA:R was originally going to be an MMORPG, but were probally never going to see that... its always depressing when a game never gets to come out.
    Last edited by mordale; 2012-08-22 at 01:37 PM.

  4. #164
    Maldias, i see what you mean, still i disagree.
    You are calling for changes that hardly suit the MMO genre, and by the way, people still shows appreciation to the current way of being.
    Fantasy themes and hotkey combat sets, give both company and players alike some space to move into.
    Hotkeys are both easy to learn but hard to master.
    Fantasy settings give companies lot of creativity choices, still are "normal" enough to be ignored by those players who don't care much about settings.
    It's an unknown path that you wish to travel through.
    I am a leaf on the wind; watch how I soar.

    Also:
    Raegwine - Sylvari Elementalist; Caplock - Charr Engineer; Noah Quickfingers - Asura Thief; Amund Stormchaser - Norn Ranger

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Holydorf View Post
    You are calling for changes that hardly suit the MMO genre, and by the way, people still shows appreciation to the current way of being.
    MMO is not genre, FPS, platformer, RTS, those are genres.
    MMO just means its alot of players playing online in the same game.

    and as to the rest of your post, no they don't.

    hotkey really isn't that deep of a control system and really just ends up with classes being played via piano rather then by actual skill in timing, aiming, and execution.

    and i don't think you understand what i mean when i say "normal fantasy universe" its technically called "high fantasy" and is the orcs, elves, humans, dwarves, etc type affair with magic, knights, dragons, etc basically if its used anything from tolkein its high fantasy.
    and its not the actual races either, its the archetypes built with those races.
    Last edited by mordale; 2012-08-22 at 01:58 PM.

  6. #166
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Yes, I do. Nobody but a blinded fanboi of some other game would claim that WoW only got so successful because it released in 2004, since that'd be denying the fact that it's a damned solid game and no matter how some vocal grumps complain, MOST people are smart enough to only pay for and play a game that they enjoy playing.
    Color me skeptical. I think that WoW is (mostly) a solid game, too, but so are several other MMOs these days. That's not sufficient to explain an order of magnitude in number of subscriptions over its nearest competitors. More likely, it's just market mechanisms at work.

    When WoW came out, it did have enormous advantages over its competitors. It was soloable, it had an extremely light death penalty for the time, and the questing was being praised for being not grindy (and by the standards of the time, it wasn't). Compared especially to EQ, the difference was night and day.

    These days, it probably benefits more from being largely on par with its competitors. When the competitors of a market leader don't do anything significantly better, then the cost of changing to a different game (especially with all the investment most WoW players have made in their characters), it's a difficult decision to jump ship. Even more so if you're part of a functioning guild or other kind of social circle in WoW; you cannot predict whether you can rebuild that in another game.

    Other factors matter, too, such as WoW's and Blizzard's enormous brand recognition, which competitors have difficulty replicating. (Bioware probably had the best opportunity in that regard with SW:TOR, but messed that up in other ways.)

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by maldias View Post
    MMO is not genre, FPS, platformer, RTS, those are genres.
    MMO just means its alot of players playing online in the same game.
    This is correct in its own peculiar way, even if i would call it semantics.
    Seems then that you refer to a more wide and distant field of gaming industry in which, i fear, i have not much interest into.
    I like MMORPG exactly the way they are right now, and i found more variety and choices of products i (sadly), will ever be able to try myself.
    Have fun playin whatever genre you may like, and hope that there will be soon some kind of title able to break what you define as "stagnation".
    I am a leaf on the wind; watch how I soar.

    Also:
    Raegwine - Sylvari Elementalist; Caplock - Charr Engineer; Noah Quickfingers - Asura Thief; Amund Stormchaser - Norn Ranger

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Holydorf View Post
    Maldias, i see what you mean, still i disagree.
    You are calling for changes that hardly suit the MMO genre, and by the way, people still shows appreciation to the current way of being.
    Fantasy themes and hotkey combat sets, give both company and players alike some space to move into.
    Hotkeys are both easy to learn but hard to master.
    Fantasy settings give companies lot of creativity choices, still are "normal" enough to be ignored by those players who don't care much about settings.
    It's an unknown path that you wish to travel through.
    Vindictus for example, is a next-gen looking game that plays as an instance based MORPG...no hot-keys, and Vindictus has been running for years. It's easily one of Nexon's more popular titles.

    Yes, I do. Nobody but a blinded fanboi of some other game would claim that WoW only got so successful because it released in 2004, since that'd be denying the fact that it's a damned solid game and no matter how some vocal grumps complain, MOST people are smart enough to only pay for and play a game that they enjoy playing.
    Wow only got so successful because it released in 2004.

    Your Star Wars comparison is silly because WoW is still making money off of the same graphics they came out with in 2004 in the first place, with only slight improvements here and there.

    I guess I wasn't clear enough in my OP when I was referring to the MMORPG genre as "dying". I did indeed mean stagnation. Dying financially? Of course not. There are more MMORPG players today than there were 5 years ago. Stagnating? Very much so. I've already explained my view on financial success VS visionary success.
    Last edited by Zipzo; 2012-08-22 at 02:14 PM.

  9. #169
    Mechagnome charlieprince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zipzo View Post
    Before I begin, I want to say that this is absolutely not aiming to be a game vs game thread. I have a question, presented with a little bit of insight of my own, and would like to see how others feel about it. I absolutely do not condone bashing World of Warcraft (or any other comparable MMO) or Guild Wars 2 in an effort to prove any point you intend to make. If you would like to make comparisons, that's fine but do so in a fair way - not an inflammatory one. I want to talk about what kind of effect you believe GW2 will have on this dying genre, honestly.

    The MMORPG has seen much decline lately in terms of fresh appeal. Most feel it's fair to say that there isn't anything "new" that we could be surprised with in this current generation, that we've seen it all, therefore all of the major MMORPG's released in the past 5-7 years or so, dressing to impress, have fallen short on their hype because how many new experiences are there really for developers to try without potentially wasting a ton of money.

    Guild Wars 2 is coming during a very hostile period in the MMORPG genre's lifespan, a time where a large majority of players rooted in that genre are hyper critical, jaded, or downright angry. Gone are the days where we appreciate the charm and chipper qualities of a new MMORPG, where instead it is compared to an MMORPG of the past that may have done it better. I suppose it's not totally unfair to say such things, but the way in which we do it has led to an outbreak of community blandness, because no longer can we talk about what makes a game good, and what makes a game bad in a way that is objective. People are passionate about the game they play now, so it's almost a personal insult to said group of people to hear even the utterance that their game is inferior in some way to another.

    Do you think GW2 will rise above this petty MMORPG war that has been raging constantly ever since World of Warcraft latched on to the dominant spot on top of its mountain throne? Do you believe GW2 provides an experience that, although of course has many familiar features, has enough freshness that it can actually launch and persist along side World of Warcraft without it being considered a "failure"? Now, for context, I don't think Aion failed. I don't think Rift failed. I think Warhammer, AoC, and SWTOR for all intents and purposes have failed in the developers vision of what they wished/thought it would be, but by definition they didn't *fail* either. Failed to live up to the hype, sure. Fail is a really packed word...which deserves unpacking each time you choose to use it so frivolously in regards to an MMORPG.

    One single game considered "the" MMORPG to play is what is killing the genre.

    In any case...the MMORPG is a dying breed, and it needs saving. Guild Wars 2 is incapable of doing that alone, but will it be a step in the right direction towards genre diversity? Obviously the game hasn't released yet, so most all of this will be conjecture but isn't that what forums are for? Let's have a real discussion here...what kind of kick-start do you think the MMORPG genre needs to put it back on the rise? Where do you think the genre will be in 10 years? This is a genre I love, and it makes me sad to see it in its current state.

    Thanks for reading, and like I said up top, keep it clean, objective, and make your points in a way that isn't insulting or inflammatory, and we'll be fine.
    MMO's are not a dying breed but rather the subscription model is dying..

    Simply put, it's a different world.. a more evolved one. Humans are Creatures of Habit and that is why you see so much misery in WoW players

    they pay for something they no longer enjoy and detest themselves for it..

    the subscription shackles them as slaves and this manifests in extreme anger

    people today do not want to pay a subscription fee.. if your game is worth it.. we will buy it and play it non-stop and pay for additional stuff if we want to but not because we have to

    it's a change in the gaming culture.. I'd go so far as to say WoW is dying of atrophy and there won't be anymore subscription based games that will succeed because gamers have evolved

    GW2 is the coming of a new era and i'd go so far as to say some people in WoW who have never even looked at GW2 will see their friends/guildies/whatever leave and in the dark of night when they're idling in origmmar or stormwind with barely anyone around the question will pop in their head: "Why am i paying for this? it's dead"

    and then they'll join GW2 and go thru the feelings of epiphany.. and then they'll proclaim their joy to the world

    .....GW2 is a religion? WOAH! it's that good!
    Last edited by charlieprince; 2012-08-22 at 02:20 PM.

    Twitter: @EsmeraldoC

  10. #170
    Hey Maldias, it's not fair editing posts after you already got a reply!

    By the way, you're right again. I don't get what you mean.
    But if the point of the matter is "Revolution!", i say no, thanks. I like the status quo.
    I know, i'm an old fart, but i love dwarves and orcs and hotkeys (GW2 lacks 2 out of 3 and that sucks).
    I report again my closing phrase:
    "Have fun playin whatever genre you may like, and hope that there will be soon some kind of title able to break what you define as "stagnation"."

    I quoted myself.
    So lame.
    I am a leaf on the wind; watch how I soar.

    Also:
    Raegwine - Sylvari Elementalist; Caplock - Charr Engineer; Noah Quickfingers - Asura Thief; Amund Stormchaser - Norn Ranger

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by charlieprince View Post
    MMO's are not a dying breed but rather the subscription model is dying..

    Simply put, it's a different world.. a more evolved one. Humans are Creatures of Habit and that is why you see so much misery in WoW players

    they pay for something they no longer enjoy and detest themselves for it..

    the subscription shackles them as slaves and this manifests in extreme anger

    people today do not want to pay a subscription fee.. if your game is worth it.. we will buy it and play it non-stop and pay for additional stuff if we want to but not because we have to

    it's a change in the gaming culture.. I'd go so far as to say WoW is dying of atrophy and there won't be anymore subscription based games that will succeed because gamers have evolved

    GW2 is the coming of a new era and i'd go so far as to say some people in WoW who have never even looked at GW2 will see their friends/guildies/whatever leave and in the dark of night when they're idling in origmmar or stormwind with barely anyone around the question will pop in their head: "Why am i paying for this? it's dead"

    and then they'll join GW2 and go thru the feelings of epiphany.. and then they'll proclaim their joy to the world

    .....GW2 is a religion? WOAH! it's that good!
    This kind of fanatical response is..insane.

    GW2 isn't a "higher plane" for which smarter humans enjoy gaming. It's a game. It's a different niche than most games out there.

    Subscriptions in of themselves aren't bad, but people now have more of a grasp on what is actually worth $15 a month. Many people have said if TERA and TSW adopted a B2P or F2P model, they would actually play those games (me included). And I would argue WoW could do to drop its sub to about $8 a month, because compared with a game like RIFT, you really aren't getting your $15 worth. But subs still make sense and work.

    And WoW isn't some terrible game. People still play it because it's fun. I personally play WoW because I enjoy playing it with friends. I don't enjoy it as much as I should for $15 a month, but I don't hate every facet of it either. The main problem is WoW hasn't aged well. Blizzard has a knack for changing dev teams often, and it hasn't worked in favor of WoW and Daiblo. But GW2 in 8 years? It will probably be in a similar place. Making a game remain successful and growing for almost a decade is pretty near impossible.

  12. #172
    GW2 is the first game i have wanted to buy, just from the initial checking it out, watching videos, and then experiencing the beta3 weekend...i was that impressed. I delved into the journals and updates the devs of the game posted, the company that makes the game, and i just really was amazed by their dedication, their spirit and enthusiasm for this game, their own hype and presentation sold me. I think its the first mmo where the developers got really involved and shared everything, and you can just tell they are hard at work on this, it isn't some big multi million dollar company putting out an mmo just for the sake of making it big (*cough swtor*) (*or even elder scrolls online)

    I don't buy games very often, i buy blizzard games for their quality (subjective these days) and production, yes they may have issues or inbalances, but overall the wow experience over the last 8 years has been solid, fun, and there was/is always something to do and play with. Switching to a new game entirely is such a hard thing to do, as they said earlier in this thread, most of us have dug our heels in and play our game of choice, we may go out in the wilderness and find a different game, but after awhile, we come back home to our game. Its the familiarity, the comfort, the time invested, the times we have shared with people, and experienced, a brand new game doesn't have that appeal to me at all...until now.

    I really have been looking for a new game to sink into besides wow, years ago i was pretty much at home, jobless, playing wow for 15 hours a day, i was addicted hardcore, it took me falling in love with a girl, to finally break my spell, i spent more time with her than the game, and i quit, for well over a year. When i came back, in that year the game had changed immensely, but i trudged through it, and then i was back to addiction again. Recently though this year, i finally am moving my life ahead, i have a daughter now, i am working full time, so my time is now limited, i cant play wow or any game like i used to, so my gaming has shifted quite a bit

    i quit playing wow back in may for diablo 3, played that for 2 months, quit because it was a fail, boring. I picked up skyrim, was playing that, then i found Guild Wars 2...and...my gaming outlook has changed once again. I now realize i can play mmo's casually and still have fun, i am not worried anymore about raiding every night, or getting the best stuff, or having every achievement, i don't feel i am missing out if i don't play all day to farm for that 1 item i want, or level my 10 alts.

    Guild Wars 2 will really be perfect for my current lifestyle, once bought, can play as much or as little as you want, i have diablo 3 (1.04 is awesome) and wow mists so i have plenty to do, yet i don't have to be playing 15 hours a day anymore in 1 game, and that's why i am loving GW2.

    GW2 just takes so many of the tried and true features of many other mmo's and makes it make sense, no corpse running, no death penalties, dynamic quests, events that matter, taking the story back to your character rather than just feeling like you are participating in a big pre-laid out book, more personable things to your toon, no raiding requirements, open world exploration with vistas and the trading system looks fantastic, making all the gear normalized, with the same stats just looking different, there is no grinding mobs, grinding dungeons for hours to get anywhere, fast travel system, constant new content, the developers being right there with us along the way, i could go on forever on how many things gw2 has going for it, and how many things just make you go "why hasn't any game done this yet" simple things that improve the mmo experience 100x over. Bringing the fun and "massive" back to this genre. (the only other game recently that has come close is Rift)

    So..Saturday night, august 25th I'll be locked and loaded...lets do this!

  13. #173
    Mechagnome Hjalmtyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieprince View Post
    MMO's are not a dying breed but rather the subscription model is dying..

    Simply put, it's a different world.. a more evolved one. Humans are Creatures of Habit and that is why you see so much misery in WoW players

    they pay for something they no longer enjoy and detest themselves for it..

    the subscription shackles them as slaves and this manifests in extreme anger

    people today do not want to pay a subscription fee.. if your game is worth it.. we will buy it and play it non-stop and pay for additional stuff if we want to but not because we have to

    it's a change in the gaming culture.. I'd go so far as to say WoW is dying of atrophy and there won't be anymore subscription based games that will succeed because gamers have evolved

    GW2 is the coming of a new era and i'd go so far as to say some people in WoW who have never even looked at GW2 will see their friends/guildies/whatever leave and in the dark of night when they're idling in origmmar or stormwind with barely anyone around the question will pop in their head: "Why am i paying for this? it's dead"

    and then they'll join GW2 and go thru the feelings of epiphany.. and then they'll proclaim their joy to the world

    .....GW2 is a religion? WOAH! it's that good!
    Wouldn't go this far, considering they're different genres. WoW is a hotkey MMORPG and GW2 is an action MMORPG. Last time I raided in WoW (Holy paladin in Dragon Soul), I don't remember having to move all that much. Last time I did heroic raiding in WoW (Demo lock, ICC25HC) I don't remember having to move all that much either. Had to take a few steps to the side for marrowgar, move out of death and decay on lady, don't get hit by anything slime related on rotface, etc.

    In GW2, you have to move a lot and it's less about rotation and more about using the abilities that matter at the current time to the maximum effect. Some WoW players won't like this, that's just simple fact, they prefer a more static, rotation playstyle. That's probably why if you go to a Naxxramas achievement run in cataclysm, people will fail on Heigan. They don't understand that you have to be moving for 70% of the fight, and I don't blame them, because WoW isn't centred on moving.

    If WoW was launched today from dust (which is what GW was launched from, WoW had years of warcraft lore and company reputation, remember?) it would not succeed as well as it is succeeding now. It's sub-par, Blizzard would have to step up their game to get on par with the other MMORPGs out there.

    Let them play their game, everyone has preferences. Either side saying either will fail is stupid, because WoW won't die any time soon and GW2 won't fail. Simple fact: Did you know that an MMO doesn't fail if it has less subscribers than WoW? Because it's true. This isn't highlander. There can be more than one.

    As for the business model, it's undoubtedly a step forward. I think WoW needs to rethink its business model, pay to play is becoming outdated. Especially since WoW has pay 2 play AND a cash shop. Jeez, how much money do you need? Buy to play with a cash shop for convenience and aesthetic items (Free to play games sometimes end up pay 2 win, so I'm glad it's Buy to Play) is just better. Buying the game prevents spammers and bots from getting online, no sub fee means you can play for as long as you want and not worry about quitting every now and again.
    Last edited by Hjalmtyr; 2012-08-22 at 03:30 PM.

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