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  1. #1
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    Lack of Holy Discussion/FeedBack

    Firstly I'd like to mention that I'm not part of the Beta or PTR testing group but I have a few concerns about our Holy Spec. There's been a lot of talk about Disc and how the spec has improved throughout the Beta and their new toy (Spirit Shell). The issue is there doesn't seem to have been much feedback for Holy and personally i'm having trouble accepting the changes and lack off that are affecting the spec.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Priest (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)

    Holy
    • Chakra is now three seperate spells through a dropdown (totem) menu.
    • Chakra: Chastise now reduces the mana cost of your offensive spells, and allows smite to have a chance to refresh the cooldown of Holy Word: Chastise.
    • Chakra: Sanctuary no longer increases the healing of Renew.
      • Holy Word: Sanctuary now acts as a Heal over Time, gaining additional ticks from haste rating, but no longer triggering Echo of Light (mastery). It once again correctly diminishes in value on more than 6 targets.
    • Chakra: Serenity now increases all affected heals by 15%, rather than their crit chance.
      • Renew is now treated as a Single Target heal for the purpose of increased output
    • Divine Hymn is now Holy exclusive
    There's been a large cry for Chakra to be altered to a Totem/Stance Style but personally I find this absolutely a bad change. This means we now have to bind 3 keys to make use of our 3 states or click the ability with a mouse to change "staces". This seems more micromanagement for no real reason and only slows down our ability to switch between our Chakras on the fly. I prefer the old method so I can simply press a button and resume my healing as I should be rather than having to waste 3 buttons to set this up that could have been used for our new talents.

    The changes to sanctuary feel like a huge nerf to making use of our mastery when stacking. I personally make use of Sanctuary in order to keep up our Echo on everyone while continuing to stack it to increase the healing done by myself. This continues as I'm recovering Mana with Hymn of Hope so that I don't lose those stacks as sanctuary is refreshing them. Now I'll have to keep an eye on this as well for a change that really shouldn't matter.

    Now I can understand that there's nothing wrong with making a spec a little more complex but that's not the issue here they are making changes to a spec which already performs behind Disc for the sake of the new expansion as "New Content" and "Improvements". Disc already performs quite well as a raid healer and they look quite good for continuing that also in MoP even with the lack of Divine Hymn. Holy just feels more irrelevant in MoP with the lack of single target damage reduction which disc has anyway.

    I want people to share their issues with our Holy Spec as i feel we will end up with an abomination of a spec come MoP.

  2. #2
    Imo holy is now the effective healing spec, and disc is the make absorbs for 1 person for 15sec for 1min healer, since i don't think u can stack divine aegis like i'm doing in ds atm the problem will be mana u cant just spam poh and not go oom. Holy is ok, tough i dont think hw: sanctuary is yet worth using.

  3. #3
    With the new duration of Sanctuary bein 30, the haste breakpoints are much lower... I need to update my blog charts to correctly illustrate that, but its notably a better stat than mastery was for HW: Sanctuary. The bigger issue is the low value it hits for per tick.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 03:39 PM ----------



    Here's the scaling as haste and what it would have been if it still scaled from Mastery as well. Updated for the 30 second duration.

    http://talesofapriest.com/2012/07/28...ry-mopscaling/

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 04:25 PM ----------

    Sidenote--- this blue post you linked... where is that from? I dont recall seeing stuff plotted out quite that explicitly.
    Last edited by derevka; 2012-08-19 at 07:39 PM.

  4. #4
    Holy Word: Sanctuary now acts as a Heal over Time, gaining additional ticks from haste rating, but no longer triggering Echo of Light (mastery). It once again correctly diminishes in value on more than 6 targets.

    Is this worth casting now it doesn't effect echo?

    Chakra: Sanctuary no longer increases the healing of Renew.

    Don't like this change but can live with it.

    What about regen? Solace or mindbender which is the more effect regen for holy?

    Not sure why they made these changes holy seemed fine before from the logs mazi posted.

    Maybe they will make some more changes before release.
    Last edited by Kacie; 2012-08-19 at 09:14 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kacie View Post
    Holy Word: Sanctuary now acts as a Heal over Time, gaining additional ticks from haste rating, but no longer triggering Echo of Light (mastery). It once again correctly diminishes in value on more than 6 targets.

    Is this worth casting now it doesn't effect echo?
    See that chart there?


    The scalability is similar as the trend line is the same with minor differences between the two. It's the 6+ targets thing is the bigger reason we might not cast it. Only a few fights that have little movement will benefit from it (spirit kings being one).

  6. #6
    What about regen Derevka with the changes to solace recently is it still better than mindbender?

    Can't seem to log in beta on EU due to it crashing on every login, hoping it's fixed soon

    Will have a good read on your site again tomorrow Thanks

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    The difference between Mindbender and Solace are really mechanical in nature.
    Mindbender is better if you can't afford to be distracted from healing, Solace is better if you have gaps in the healing-demand to cast a non-heal

    Frankly I think FDCL is underrated, The instant Flash Heal is not only free and instant it also procs Serendipity which reduces the mana cost of Greater Heal and PoH, I find it to be useful for mobility fights and burst-heal fights where mana is not as a big concern as HPS is, and great in PvP.

    as to the question of whether to use Sanctuary. Don't be stupid, of course you will use Sanctuary. In an AoE-healing situation you need to be Chakra_Sanct anyway for the increased AoE healing, and Sanctuary still does more absolute healing on multiple targets when used on cooldown than Serenity does on single targets when used on cooldown. Sanctuary is not as good as it was in Cata, but you still use it. jeez.
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-08-21 at 03:17 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    The difference between Mindbender and Solace are really mechanical in nature.
    Mindbender is better if you can't afford to be distracted from healing, Solace is better if you have gaps in the healing-demand to cast a non-heal

    Frankly I think FDCL is underrated, The instant Flash Heal is not only free and instant it also procs Serendipity which reduces the mana cost of Greater Heal and PoH, I find it to be useful for mobilitys fights and burst-heal fights where mana is not as a big concern as HPS is, and great in PvP.

    as to the question of whether to use Sanctuary. Don't be stupid, of course you will use Sanctuary. On an AoE fight you need to be Chakra_Sanct anyway for the increased AoE healing, and Sanctuary still does more absolute healing on multiple targets when used on cooldown than Serenity does on single targets when used on cooldown. Sanctuary is not as good as it was in Cata, but you still use it. jeez.
    I agree, a good priest makes use of all their abilities in the appropriate situation, I think people get to caught up in the "use only this and not that" attitude due to marginal differences in HPS/mana costs. If used appropriately most abilities (except maybe holy nova) can be effective

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markle View Post
    If used appropriately most abilities (except maybe holy nova) can be effective
    Holy Nova is the best spell for killing Critters, (and Zombies during the Culling of Stratholme).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    as to the question of whether to use Sanctuary. Don't be stupid, of course you will use Sanctuary. In an AoE-healing situation you need to be Chakra_Sanct anyway for the increased AoE healing, and Sanctuary still does more absolute healing on multiple targets when used on cooldown than Serenity does on single targets when used on cooldown. Sanctuary is not as good as it was in Cata, but you still use it. jeez.
    I can't really comment on the viability of Sanctuary as I have only had marginal time on the beta. However I believe you are going about the viability of Sanctuary comparison all wrong. Sanctuary doing more healing than Serenity when used on CD is irrelevant. In order to be useful Sanctuary needs either:

    -More hps compared with PoH/Renew that would fit in the cast space, combined with not draining our mana too much
    -Or more hpm compared with PoH/Renew with decent hps.

    Sanctuary needs to be better/on par with holy raid healing options not with Serenity to be useful. Note I honestly don't know its status in this regard.
    Last edited by Obsidian9; 2012-08-21 at 03:29 PM.

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    you are correct, after i wrote my comment i realized just what you said,

    I am pretty sure one cast of HW:Sanctuary has more HPET than Renew or PoH, given that it can be pre-cast (unlike PoH), it has a less than 1 second cast-time (unlike PoH), and it effects multiple targets (unlike Renew) and can heal more than 6 targets (unlike PoH and CoH).

    It's cast time less than one second but not instant, so Renew only competes when you have to cast while moving (and since Sanctuary performs poorly when everyone is moving anyway, that's ok)
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-08-21 at 03:51 PM.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    you are correct, after i wrote my comment i realized just what you said,

    I am pretty sure one cast of HW:Sanctuary has more HPET than Renew or PoH, given that it can be pre-cast (unlike PoH), it has a less than 1 second cast-time (unlike PoH), and it effects multiple targets (unlike Renew) and can heal more than 6 targets (unlike PoH and CoH). It is definitely more HPM than PoH because it's really cheap.

    It's cast time less than one second but not instant, so Renew only competes when you have to cast while moving (and since Sanctuary performs poorly when everyone is moving anyway, that's ok)
    Sanctuary costs 40% more than a cast of PoH so I am not sure where this idea of it being cheap comes from.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    i will just cut that point out then

  14. #14
    Sanct's scaling from a Cata to MoP standpoint is pretty shitty as well... i cant say that its really worth the mana in all honesty, particularly given the raw healing it does... its terribly underwhelming.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by derevka View Post
    Sanct's scaling from a Cata to MoP standpoint is pretty shitty as well... i cant say that its really worth the mana in all honesty, particularly given the raw healing it does... its terribly underwhelming.
    It's only 6k and now lasts 30 seconds up from 18.

    My only two problems with the spec is that the chakra concerns hasn't been addressed. The 30 second cooldown is simply too much.

    And holy still is the only spec to not have a built in mana regen.

    I hope priests aren't shipped like this.
    Last edited by Heroicmoises; 2012-08-21 at 11:19 PM.

  16. #16
    Its "only 6k" is a bit of a red herring when you 'only' have 100k mana at 85 as of next week. 6.3% mana isnt anything to scoff at considering how low it heals for, regardless of how long its on the ground.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by derevka View Post
    Its "only 6k" is a bit of a red herring when you 'only' have 100k mana at 85 as of next week. 6.3% mana isnt anything to scoff at considering how low it heals for, regardless of how long its on the ground.
    I've been wanting to suggest on the forums for a long time to buff the overall healing of sanctuary but my account is inactive at the moment.

    I simply want three things

    1) Buff holy word sanctuary
    2) Reduce the cooldown on chakra or just remove it
    3) Give holy priest a built in mana regen (Through it may be too late)

    I think everything else is ok for now.

  18. #18
    I remember people stating that Holy Word serenity was too expensive to cast on Beta unlike on live. Is this still the case?

  19. #19
    Piffinity:
    HW: Serenity was lowered in cost from ~18% to 2% mana cost some time ago. It's now very cheap.
    But still, it is more expensive than on live.

    Derevka:
    It's not a bluequote. It's from Kelesti's summary of the holy changes.
    I think we should be using [mmoquote] instead of [blizzquote] in these situations. The head of mmochamp got Blizzard into some nasty situations back in the days when he posted all changes in blue and messed up
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  20. #20
    In all honesty chakra is NOT fine. We are being gimped with a long 30 second cooldown, it's ridiculous.

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