High school valedictorian denied diploma for saying "hell" in speech.

[Zoldor]

Ahh American Public education, glorified babysitting. We're worried about the words kids use instead of worrying about teaching them useful words. The power school officials have is pretty intense, more power than cops when it comes to just searching random people as well and they love shitting on the first amendment. Stand in line and be quite for 8 hours. Here are some under paid people who have to teach at a dumb down level and follow a lesson plan they don't get to make. Just a plan that targets the lowest level of intelligence.

edit: Oh its Oklahoma...lol...they make Mississippi and Alabama look progressive. They banned Sharia Law....they banned law that isn't legally binding in the US...they literally banned something that wasn't usable anyways...they spent government money and hours of government time to ban something that wasn't enforceable anyways. ahh OK if it wasn't for the play and your ignorance no one would remember you. The actual Butt-hole of the US.

[Casisiempre]

Actually she's not protected by freedom of speech here, IIRC your constitution protects you from persecution from the government. I don't think a principle counts as the government, and I don't think this counts as persecution either.

Someone who's studied American law want to weigh in on this?

You are correct about that. Students in American schools do not have full freedom of speech while in high school. See the court case Bethel and Hazelwood. Students do not fully lose their freedom of speech (Tinker vs. Des Moines), but it can be restricted.

[Dazzy]

Unfortunately, a school CAN legally withhold a diploma from a student. She could take the school to court and probably win since her speech did not contain sexual or drug related talk. However, that would cost both time and money and it would be much easier just to write the apology and be done with it.

Fortunately in the US it doesn't matter if they withhold a diploma. It's just a piece of paper to frame, not used for anything legal. Everyone that checks her records for whatever reason will see she graduated and that she was valedictorian.

These stories pop up every couple weeks, high school educators on a powertrip, for saying hell, their family is cheering too loudly at the ceremony (yes that happened), wearing jeans to the ceremony.... Not knocking anyone that is an educator but at that level they see kids graduating with a lot more potential than they had, hell, the ones moving on to digging ditches will make more than most teachers. There are quite a few that are extremely bitter about their choices.

[Casisiempre]

OT: What the hell is wrong with the word "hell" its not rude or swear word, so what is the problem? Can someone explain this to me please, cause i really don't get it? Is it because some religious people are offended by that or what ?

Hell is considered a swear word by a lot of people; just because you don't think it is doesn't mean it isn't. Do a web search and it will appear on most lists of "English swear words".

[Zoldor]

You are correct about that. Students in American schools do not have full freedom of speech while in high school. See the court case Bethel and Hazelwood. Students do not fully lose their freedom of speech (Tinker vs. Des Moines), but it can be restricted.

But the principal is a government actor unless its a private school. You don't have full freedom of speech, it can be restricted, but this does not fall into any of the areas defined in the cases you've listed. No true threat, no promotion of violence, no promotion of drug use, not pushing religion at a forced school event, etc. This one would win and uphold free speech rights.

[dantian]

Too many of today's kids are too foulmouthed.

So the fuck what? What value does an arbitrary social taboo around a sound have? None.

[Morgaith]

Yay religion.

this, i don't care for infractions (it's the truth).

[Zoldor]

Actually she's not protected by freedom of speech here, IIRC your constitution protects you from persecution from the government. I don't think a principle counts as the government, and I don't think this counts as persecution either.

Someone who's studied American law want to weigh in on this?

Public school which is funded by the state taxes, making all employees of the school state employees meaning they are government actors which makes them liable under the free speech doctrine. TLDR; Public school = Government Actor

[monostat]

You are correct about that. Students in American schools do not have full freedom of speech while in high school. See the court case Bethel and Hazelwood. Students do not fully lose their freedom of speech (Tinker vs. Des Moines), but it can be restricted.

Yep in Bethel they said “it is a highly appropriate function of public school education to prohibit the use of vulgar and offensive terms in public discourse.” Now is hell offensive, not to me but I don't make the rules. She knew the rules and did it anyway, say I'm sorry and move on. This is not a free speech issue it's a breaking the rules issue.

[Xsinthis]

Supreme Court decided in Tinker v. Des Moines that children in school have first amendment protection. However, there are a few exceptions to this. Later supreme court decisions placed limitations on student free speech, such as no sexual speech and no drug related speech. Also, freedom of speech is not protected in school newspapers.

Her case doesn't really fall under any of the exceptions, so she could feasibly win.

Okay but isn't free speech about politics and religion and rights and everything? Not whether or not you can cuss in a speech?

[gzathegenius]

....sigh i love this country...

[Garnier Fructis]

Okay but isn't free speech about politics and religion and rights and everything? Not whether or not you can cuss in a speech?

Well, yeah. The first amendment does not protect obscenity or vulgar speech, but that doesn't stop people from debating what exactly counts as obscenity.

[Belloc]

Every county is different but I know when I graduated we were told any funny business on stage, including cussing, would result in them holding our diplomas. She even edited the speech she turned in for approval with the word heck, you have to assume she knew the rules.

I'm not so sure if there is, I looked over the schools "Student Agenda Handbook" and I'm not seeing anything in there in regards to cussing. I could understand if she used a swear word every sentence or something but if it was a one time thing I don't really see the problem.

Good job principal!! Too many of today's kids are too foulmouthed. They have to learn somehow if they have crap;py parents that dont raise them right I guess parents dont wash their mouths out with soap anymore like my Mom did the one time I cursed

Hell is not a swear word...

Hell is considered a swear word by a lot of people; just because you don't think it is doesn't mean it isn't. Do a web search and it will appear on most lists of "English swear words".

... even if you think it is.

[Xsinthis]

Well, yeah. The first amendment does not protect obscenity or vulgar speech, but that doesn't stop people from debating what exactly counts as obscenity.

Debating if it's vulgar than shouldn't be an issue then since it's not protected either way...unless I'm missing something here again

[Zoldor]

Okay but isn't free speech about politics and religion and rights and everything? Not whether or not you can cuss in a speech?

Free Speech is literally about being able to say whatever you want. Not just when talking about Politics and religion those are just the areas of major usage because you need a government actor to attack someone on the grounds of freedom of speech. Your mom tells you to shut your fucking mouth or don't say that, you can't haul her into court. You say fuck in public and a cop arrests you, your defense is first amendment privilege to whatever trumped up law they arrest you under.

[Tomana]

Now this is just plain idiotic.

[Eomar]

This is a fail on part of the school

[Zoldor]

Well, yeah. The first amendment does not protect obscenity or vulgar speech, but that doesn't stop people from debating what exactly counts as obscenity.

Obscene speech and vulgar speech is pornography and things like that. Or if you are broadcasting to an open air audience (radio waves) where people can't be protected even that has a time and place restriction.

[CaptainArlong]

Hell is a real place; It is a small village in Stjørdal, Norway, and ironically one of the coldest places to live. I don't see whats wrong about mentioning the name of a Norwegian town in a speech...

No, there's nothing ironic about that. Hell was created by Dante Alighieri for an epic poem, the Divine Comedy. The lowest level of Hell was completely frozen, and consisted of a frozen lake, with Satan frozen in the middle of it.

[Joán]

Well, yeah. The first amendment does not protect obscenity or vulgar speech, but that doesn't stop people from debating what exactly counts as obscenity.

The definition of freedom of speech is literally that you can say whatever you want*. It absolutely protects obscenity and vulgar speech because the actual and exact purpose of it is to protect speech that some people find offensive and might therefore want to ban.

*Courts have found it reasonable to conclude that inciting or encouraging criminal activities is not protected and as offensive as this is to the pure idea of freedom of speech, it probably is a good idea in a civilized society. Probably.