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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    The problem is selling stated gear really is in a way pay to win. Though depends on the gear. Still it's a dangerous road to cross for Bioware/EA but...whatever.
    If they are selling level 1-49 gear on their cash shop who really cares? If you pvp in the 1-49 bracket, all your gear is normalized to that of a level 49 character.

    When you hit level 50 you gear a free set of starter pvp gear, which is good enough to replace all of your leveling gear and start Hard Mode Flashpoints and Story Mode Ops.

    Unless they are selling top end game gear in the cash shop no one will care about it. I really don't see a problem.

  2. #42
    Unless the gear has an impact on ranked pvp or top tier progression it is not pay to win.

    Period.

    Anything else in an MMO is not "winning".

    You leveled your character up 5 hours faster than some other guy a year after the game came out? No one cares. You didn't win at anything.
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  3. #43
    Banned Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    If they are selling level 1-49 gear on their cash shop who really cares? If you pvp in the 1-49 bracket, all your gear is normalized to that of a level 49 character.

    When you hit level 50 you gear a free set of starter pvp gear, which is good enough to replace all of your leveling gear and start Hard Mode Flashpoints and Story Mode Ops.

    Unless they are selling top end game gear in the cash shop no one will care about it. I really don't see a problem.
    Being rational and reserving judgment have no place here Ghosty...everyone wants to wail as the sky falls and burns aroung them, in order to justify their misplaced angst against this game going F2P.

    How dare you have a level head about everything! I will help you put the tar on yourself for the feather mob that has been in all these threads.

  4. #44
    I really don't like the new general manger.... there is no passion in his voice, and bad feel for him

  5. #45
    So, first, about ME3. For the ending's problems, many players simply feel the ending is jarring, and there are videos trying to explain. Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage does a good job at that.

    There are also fan made endings that stays consistent with the mass effect universe, most notably Marauder Shields.

    Also ME3's ending isn't its only problem. Auto-dialogues, only one hub world, unfair treatments to LIs (Liara is Bioware's bit*h while ME2 LIs get almost nothing), tons of fetch quests in place of proper mini side quests and etc. There are also disgusting marketing bullsh*t such as day 1 DLC and Allers.

    ME3's ending isn't the only mistake that Bioware made in recent years. DA: A, DA2 are also problems. You could argue otherwise, but the trend is there. If I have time I would make a video about the top 5-10 things we miss from the old Bioware.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Honestly it doesn't matter much what they say at this point. Some people will still find loopholes that they didn't mention and start yelling that the end of the world is neigh because the Dev didn't cover some random point yet which means it could still be the end of the world as we know. (yes hyperbole but I think we can see the point?) Right now we just need to wait and see what the specifics are when they release them. Though endless speculation about if there are four horses of the apocalypse or 7 could be fun...
    THE END IS NEIGH!

    THE END IS NEIGH!




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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Being rational and reserving judgment have no place here Ghosty...everyone wants to wail as the sky falls and burns aroung them, in order to justify their misplaced angst against this game going F2P.

    How dare you have a level head about everything! I will help you put the tar on yourself for the feather mob that has been in all these threads.
    I guess people fail to see that the straight subscription model for MMO's is dead. The masses simply don't want that type of revenue model anymore. At this point WoW is an outlier, in the MMO market, and the only reason it is able to maintain the subscription revenue model is primarily due to the large tight nit communities that still exist in the game. As subscriptions continue to drop I can see WoW changing it's revenue model as well. Plenty of other games have transitioned away from the subscription based revenue model and increased active players and income. Heck GW1, the second most popular MMO, has never had a subscription model and still generates a profit for Anet

    I think that most developers that want to foster a competitive end game progression cycle (i.e. the carrot on the stick) know better than to allow P2W. If you are trying to sell your end game content as your primary product, which is seems Bioware is trying to do with SWTOR, then a P2W scenario is simply hanging yourself, since buying the best gear in the game defeats the purpose of doing the content in the first place. Selling power ups, convenience and anything that pushes a free player to your paid content is simply smart business.

  8. #48
    People really need to revisit the meaning of the word dead and stop tossing it around willy nilly. Subscription model might be dying, that is certainly a debate that can be had. To say it is dead already is an exaggeration.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    People really need to revisit the meaning of the word dead and stop tossing it around willy nilly. Subscription model might be dying, that is certainly a debate that can be had. To say it is dead already is an exaggeration.
    I would agree, just because the model didn't work for SWTOR doesn't mean that it can't work for anyone else or even ever again. It's something that comes down to a lot of factors. Some of those factors I can think of are the combat designs, the real hook to keep people playing, customization options, etc. For SWTOR the factors just weren't right for a monthly fee.
    Last edited by Ragnarocket; 2012-08-21 at 04:35 PM.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    I guess people fail to see that the straight subscription model for MMO's is dead. The masses simply don't want that type of revenue model anymore. At this point WoW is an outlier, in the MMO market, and the only reason it is able to maintain the subscription revenue model is primarily due to the large tight nit communities that still exist in the game. As subscriptions continue to drop I can see WoW changing it's revenue model as well. Plenty of other games have transitioned away from the subscription based revenue model and increased active players and income. Heck GW1, the second most popular MMO, has never had a subscription model and still generates a profit for Anet
    I'd love a list of all those games that went F2P that increased active paying players and revenue over an extended period of time and not only an initial boom.

    As far as P2P being dead, WoW, Rift, EvE, TSW...
    Last edited by Redblade; 2012-08-21 at 04:35 PM.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    People really need to revisit the meaning of the word dead and stop tossing it around willy nilly. Subscription model might be dying, that is certainly a debate that can be had. To say it is dead already is an exaggeration.
    Dead in the fact that you will probably not see another MMO released with a subscription only revenue model. The market is moving to give their customers choice in how the pay for their content, be it ala carte or subscription or somewhere in between. I didn't state that subscriptions are going away anytime soon, or even ever.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Dead in the fact that you will probably not see another MMO released with a subscription only revenue model. The market is moving to give their customers choice in how the pay for their content, be it ala carte or subscription or somewhere in between. I didn't state that subscriptions are going away anytime soon, or even ever.
    Eh... I don't think that is likely to prove true either. Also I mean do you mean as of today moving forward we will never see another MMO released with a subscription model? You can't mean from anytime earlier this year because there have been a few sub MMO's released this year. Undoubtedly there will be more F2P and B2P and other variants of that model than sub games; but saying that there never will be another one... I don't think that is likely.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Eh... I don't think that is likely to prove true either. Also I mean do you mean as of today moving forward we will never see another MMO released with a subscription model? You can't mean from anytime earlier this year because there have been a few sub MMO's released this year. Undoubtedly there will be more F2P and B2P and other variants of that model than sub games; but saying that there never will be another one... I don't think that is likely.
    There is credibility to the statement that there will likely not be anymore subscription based games launched in the future that are able to retain that model for very long. Subscription only games REALLY need to provide something amazing for the subscription nowadays given how stiff competition from free to play, buy to play, and freemium games is.

    Elder Scrolls Online for example. From everything we've seen of it, I can't see how it will maintain itself as a subscription only game and have very high numbers. TSW and TERA are other examples of recently released games. I don't know if/how profitable they are, but based on what I've read/heard officially, it's a fair assumption that neither has reached their target for profitability (based on recent 20% staff reduction at En Masse and Funcoms statement that they didn't make either of their target goals for TSW launch). That means they will either have to lower revenue targets or investigate a freemium/free to play transition in the hopes of generating additional revenue.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Subscription only games REALLY need to provide something amazing for the subscription nowadays given how stiff competition from free to play, buy to play, and freemium games is.
    Where you get this stiff competition from F2P games I have no idea, as far as theme park MMORPGs goes most F2P/B2P/Freemium hardly has a player base worth mentioning, the only once I can think of that holds a similar quality to the popular once are GW2 that isn't released yet and TOR that isn't F2P yet, the others I tried where either what I would consider poor quality games or just old to the point where it didn't matter if the game was good at one point as it couldn't compete with modern games.

    I do agree that a subscription game do need to provide something amazing or very frequent content updates in a game that has the right feel and quality though, something we as player should demand much more than we currently are.
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  15. #55
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    This sounds more like gear that makes it easier to level rather than end-game stuff. this isnt pay to win at all the way its described.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Varyk View Post
    This sounds more like gear that makes it easier to level rather than end-game stuff. this isnt pay to win at all the way its described.
    You'd be surprised at how people categorize Pay-to-Win.

    By adding to the leveling experience through a cash shop, that is no way P2W but some people will argue it. I, however, will still view P2W as the ability to buy gear you attain through Operations.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Varyk View Post
    This sounds more like gear that makes it easier to level rather than end-game stuff. this isnt pay to win at all the way its described.
    Yeah sounds like they are selling the equivalent of heirloom items from WOW. Don't sound to bad.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    You'd be surprised at how people categorize Pay-to-Win.

    By adding to the leveling experience through a cash shop, that is no way P2W but some people will argue it. I, however, will still view P2W as the ability to buy gear you attain through Operations.
    For me I would also add HM flashpoints (or any of the ending leveling area gear)

    There to big a stepping stone in the game and being able to buy that gear is crossing the line along with what you said.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    For me I would also add HM flashpoints (or any of the ending leveling area gear)

    There to big a stepping stone in the game and being able to buy that gear is crossing the line along with what you said.
    I can agree with this. I don't think being able to pay money to catch up on the 'end game' is acceptable either. I don't care what people say, I do not associate the leveling process AT ALL with the end game. It's like two distinctly different games. There is not much you can do while leveling that will affect your ability to progress in the end game.

    Basically you can get there faster. Well...who cares? You already can do that if you level with a group of people or play nonstop. Adding any gear past level 49 is a different story. It just doesn't sound like that is going to happen at this point.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by maldias View Post
    ....this post makes no logical sense what so ever.
    you point out that the series is good(which it is) and yet can't understand why people hate the ending.
    cause bioware showed they can do better, thats why.
    the ending to ME3, and the storyline(or lack there of) in DA2, were massive slaps in the face.
    made worse with how they claimed to have "artistic integrity" despite walling off on disc content for more money and making false claims about the ending(there really is only one) before hand.
    Why, he is totally right. F2P is more for what TOR is then a P2P game. I can't wait.
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