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  1. #1

    Guild Wars 2 & the MMORPG Genre

    Before I begin, I want to say that this is absolutely not aiming to be a game vs game thread. I have a question, presented with a little bit of insight of my own, and would like to see how others feel about it. I absolutely do not condone bashing World of Warcraft (or any other comparable MMO) or Guild Wars 2 in an effort to prove any point you intend to make. If you would like to make comparisons, that's fine but do so in a fair way - not an inflammatory one. I want to talk about what kind of effect you believe GW2 will have on this dying genre, honestly.

    The MMORPG has seen much decline lately in terms of fresh appeal. Most feel it's fair to say that there isn't anything "new" that we could be surprised with in this current generation, that we've seen it all, therefore all of the major MMORPG's released in the past 5-7 years or so, dressing to impress, have fallen short on their hype because how many new experiences are there really for developers to try without potentially wasting a ton of money.

    Guild Wars 2 is coming during a very hostile period in the MMORPG genre's lifespan, a time where a large majority of players rooted in that genre are hyper critical, jaded, or downright angry. Gone are the days where we appreciate the charm and chipper qualities of a new MMORPG, where instead it is compared to an MMORPG of the past that may have done it better. I suppose it's not totally unfair to say such things, but the way in which we do it has led to an outbreak of community blandness, because no longer can we talk about what makes a game good, and what makes a game bad in a way that is objective. People are passionate about the game they play now, so it's almost a personal insult to said group of people to hear even the utterance that their game is inferior in some way to another.

    Do you think GW2 will rise above this petty MMORPG war that has been raging constantly ever since World of Warcraft latched on to the dominant spot on top of its mountain throne? Do you believe GW2 provides an experience that, although of course has many familiar features, has enough freshness that it can actually launch and persist along side World of Warcraft without it being considered a "failure"? Now, for context, I don't think Aion failed. I don't think Rift failed. I think Warhammer, AoC, and SWTOR for all intents and purposes have failed in the developers vision of what they wished/thought it would be, but by definition they didn't *fail* either. Failed to live up to the hype, sure. Fail is a really packed word...which deserves unpacking each time you choose to use it so frivolously in regards to an MMORPG.

    One single game considered "the" MMORPG to play is what is killing the genre.

    In any case...the MMORPG is a dying breed, and it needs saving. Guild Wars 2 is incapable of doing that alone, but will it be a step in the right direction towards genre diversity? Obviously the game hasn't released yet, so most all of this will be conjecture but isn't that what forums are for? Let's have a real discussion here...what kind of kick-start do you think the MMORPG genre needs to put it back on the rise? Where do you think the genre will be in 10 years? This is a genre I love, and it makes me sad to see it in its current state.

    Thanks for reading, and like I said up top, keep it clean, objective, and make your points in a way that isn't insulting or inflammatory, and we'll be fine.
    Last edited by Zipzo; 2012-08-18 at 08:05 PM.

  2. #2
    Mechagnome Hjalmtyr's Avatar
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    I think that Guild Wars 2 will not rise above the petty war. As long as there are 2 people left in existence, someone's opinion is going to be seen as wrong.

    I do, however, believe that Guild Wars 2 is a step in the right direction. A step in the direction of innovation. While GW2's ideas are not new, they certainly are the first to be put into practice all together. Some games have tried different combat systems - Some have tried different story systems, but GW2 is the only one on the horizon to try both.

    While I do not believe this will 'kill WoW' or anything like that, I do believe it will be successful. You simply can't kill WoW with a game like this because it isn't anything like WoW. If you don't like the way GW2 plays out but you like WoW, you will stick playing WoW. It's like saying a racing game is going to take over the fighting genre. It doesn't happen.

    Where do I think the genre will be in 10 years? I think the genre won't be far off from where it is now. I hope it is very far away from where it is now. I hope people take GW2's teachings and make better things in the future. While there is nothing wrong with taking something that works and making it better, there is something wrong with when the genre dries up and we are capable of so much more now.

    Doom and Wolfenstein were successful. They didn't use the mouse to move the camera, yet it's a very successful FPS and tonnes of people played it. Did people stick to the exact control model? No, they made it different. They introduced the mouse. They introduced things like reloading. They built on the genre and revolutionised it when they got the availability to. They added things like vehicles, open maps - Look at PlanetSide, for example. A far cry from the original FPS games that surfaced 10-15 years before. Only by innovation of the genre can you truly advance.

    I believe that Guild Wars 2 is a step in the advancement of the MMORPG genre.
    "Do you know what it's like to fall on the floor, cry your guts out til you got no more? Hey man, now you're really livin'" - Mark Everett

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Zipzo View Post
    Before I begin, I want to say that this is absolutely not aiming to be a game vs game thread. I have a question, presented with a little bit of insight of my own, and would like to see how others feel about it. I absolutely do not condone bashing World of Warcraft (or any other comparable MMO) or Guild Wars 2 in an effort to prove any point you intend to make. If you would like to make comparisons, that's fine but do so in a fair way - not an inflammatory one. I want to talk about what kind of effect you believe GW2 will have on this dying genre, honestly.

    The MMORPG has seen much decline lately in terms of fresh appeal. Most feel it's fair to say that there isn't anything "new" that we could be surprised with in this current generation, that we've seen it all, therefore all of the major MMORPG's released in the past 5-7 years or so, dressing to impress, have fallen short on their hype because how many new experiences are there really for developers to try without potentially wasting a ton of money.

    Guild Wars 2 is coming during a very hostile period in the MMORPG genre's lifespan, a time where a large majority of players rooted in that genre are hyper critical, jaded, or downright angry. Gone are the days were we appreciate the charm and chipper qualities of a new MMORPG, where instead it is compared to an MMORPG of the past that may have done it better. I suppose it's not totally unfair to say such things, but the way in which we do it has to led to an outbreak of community blandness, because no longer can we talk about what makes a game good, and what makes a game bad in a way that is objective. People are passionate about the game they play now, so it's almost a personal insult to said group of people to hear even the utterance that their game is inferior in some way to another.

    Do you think GW2 will rise above this petty MMORPG war that has been raging constantly ever since World of Warcraft latched on to the dominant spot on top of its mountain throne? Do you believe GW2 provides an experience that, although of course has many familiar features, has enough freshness that it can actually launch and persist along side World of Warcraft without it being considered a "failure"? Now, for context, I don't think Aion failed. I don't think Rift failed. I think Warhammer, AoC, and SWTOR for all intents and purposes have failed in the developers vision of what they wished/thought it would be, but by definition they didn't *fail* either. Failed to live up to the hype, sure. Fail is a really packed word...which deserves unpacking each time you choose to use it so frivolously in regards to an MMORPG.

    One single game considered "the" MMORPG to play is what is killing the genre.

    In any case...the MMORPG is a dying breed, and it needs saving. Guild Wars 2 isn't incapable of doing that alone...but will it be a step in the right direction towards genre diversity? Obviously the game hasn't released yet, so most all of this will be conjecture...but isn't that what forums are for? Let's have a real discussion here...what kind of kick-start do you think the MMORPG genre needs to put it back on the rise? Where do you think the genre will be in 10 years? This is a genre I love, and it makes me sad to see it in its current state.

    Thanks for reading, and like I said up top, keep it clean, objective, and make your points in a way that isn't insulting or inflammatory, and we'll be fine.
    GW2 is basically the ideal MMO for the veteran MMORPG player, the gamers that have a finer taste for games. Gone is the gear treadmill and faction grinding. The scripted bread crumb questing is replaced by a open ended dynamic leveling system. PvP is also reaching for an ideal, massive in scale and weighted more for skill. The armor and weapon graphics are probably the most amazing in any genre at the moment.

    GW2 won't be part of the MMORPG war, that "war" is really only for those that took the blue pill. GW2 is the place where gamers go when they take the red pill and realize "Oh shit... I'm supposed to play games for fun". Not everyone will take the red pill, in fact it is probably a very minor population that would.
    Last edited by Eggoman; 2012-08-18 at 07:53 PM.

  4. #4
    One single game considered "the" MMORPG to play is what is killing the genre.
    This is the only point I agree on without question.

    The genre as a whole has been rather healthy over the last couple of years. More choices-- more high quality choices are instrumental in the current direction of the genre. Where past games were just like, not well produced. That is different than saying they were "bad" games.

    MMOs a few years back were saddled with so many technical difficulties, shoddy production value and useability issues-- it didn't matter how novel or tight the underlying systems were. We can even see some past games with launch woes now thriving & doing quite well. Not because the gameplay took some monumental leap, but rather from simply ironing out technical difficulties.

    That is pretty rare nowadays relatively speaking. Rift launched almost flawlessly; widely regarded as the best MMO launch of the era. SWTOR did not lack for production value. Indeed. SWTOR exceeds the production of many games on the market. Tera's engine is super optimized, response is tight, communication clear, etc.

    There are some interesting design points in GW2 I think will be seen in later titles. But I don't think it'll be anymore of a revolution than other games, per se. Too many differing tastes in the market for that.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-08-18 at 08:02 PM.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    I think it's a great time for MMOs

    I do believe that GW2 is already having an impact on the MMO scene evidenced by Rift's recent announcement to have gear equalization in PvP and the perception that GW2 has "pushed" Blizzard into getting out some new content.

    Also, the trend is now going towards subscription-free games which gives gamers a lot of choices. Companies will have to work harder to keep their playerbases because we will play what is the most FUN.

    As far as people being passionate about their game of choice, I've seen blind fans and thoughtful people on both sides and many, many people that are now playing more than one game.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Zipzo View Post
    One single game considered "the" MMORPG to play is what is killing the genre.

    In any case...the MMORPG is a dying breed, and it needs saving. Guild Wars 2 is incapable of doing that alone, but will it be a step in the right direction towards genre diversity? Obviously the game hasn't released yet, so most all of this will be conjecture but isn't that what forums are for? Let's have a real discussion here...what kind of kick-start do you think the MMORPG genre needs to put it back on the rise? Where do you think the genre will be in 10 years? This is a genre I love, and it makes me sad to see it in its current state.

    Thanks for reading, and like I said up top, keep it clean, objective, and make your points in a way that isn't insulting or inflammatory, and we'll be fine.
    Here are the 3 things that need to happen imo for the genre to evolve:

    1. Innovations and Refinement. This is something that GW2 does to an extent. It's not 100% revolutionary but it's clear that it doesn't take the safe route of making another samey MMO. Developers need to add new ideas, change old ones and refine others if they reuse them. All this must be done well, because a failed new idea will be detrimental to the reuse of the same idea later (even if done right the next time).
    Making things different also promotes coexistence. If things are the same, the choice appears simple: you take the best one. If things are different you have a choice and can play more exactly what you think is fun.

    2. The removal or a big decrease of subscription fees. There are multiple reasons to that. First, fees discourage customer to play multiple games or discourage them to play one too casually. It also closes the market to MANY potential customer. This make coexistence hard (see point #1). Secondly, fees have the tendency to make developers (due to pression from shareholders ?) try to imitate a game that had great results with fees and lead to questionable decisions that sometimes just seem to aim at more subscriptions (renewal, keeping you subscribed etc). Finally, subscription fees at 15$ are just not justified, it is just a consumer psychology exploit. If a company was selling 90$ patches every 6months would you pay for it ? A fair price in the year 2012 is closer to 5 or 7$.

    3. The end of "the" MMO mentality. It helps noone. A mmo doesn't need 10Million subscriber to be successful. The most popular mmo isn't necessarily the mmo everyone should play, etc.

    In conclusion, I don't think GW2 will solve everything but it certainly is a step in the right direction.

    The future ? I think the days of subscription based games are in decline. Games like LoL are the prime example. Once that step is taken I can see the future with multiple F2P mmos that coexist because they provide different forms of entertainement.
    Last edited by rezoacken; 2012-08-18 at 08:41 PM.

  7. #7
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Which MMORPGs are considered failures? Even EverQuest, the game that WoW supposedly "replaced" years ago, is still being played by many, and still making money.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

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  8. #8
    From looking at it, it is a step forward i do think. Take PvP for example. i'm sure when the vast majority of people think of what PvP is, it should be open battleground massive warfare, getting away from the articifical games like 'capture the flag' or cap the area etc. Even more so when limited to 8 or 10 or 15 a side.

    Thats one reason why both WvW and Dynamic events in Guild Wars 2 look so good and interesting. It puts the Massively back into the game. Large social groups of people coming together.

    Thats what I think a lot of people, especially those which are MMO veterns from the early days of things like WoW are looking for. A way to put community right back in the heart of the game. Although recent additions like group finders etc make things easier for games, it destroy's the links which people form.

    Breaking the trinity should also help with this, as people won't be forced now to compromise how they play into roles.
    Last edited by Solitare-sp; 2012-08-18 at 08:32 PM.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral MKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Which MMORPGs are considered failures? Even EverQuest, the game that WoW supposedly "replaced" years ago, is still being played by many, and still making money.
    Yeah, so is warhammer, and aion, and rift, even age of conan.

  10. #10
    More successful competition being injected into the market is what I hope for whenever I hear of a new MMORPG coming out. I like it when the developers behind different games are on their toes, and no one is sitting nice and easy.

  11. #11
    Mechagnome Hjalmtyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Which MMORPGs are considered failures? Even EverQuest, the game that WoW supposedly "replaced" years ago, is still being played by many, and still making money.
    Hell, Everquest is still bringing out expansions. Last expansion was released in November 2011, I believe.
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  12. #12
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    The only MMORPG I'd truly consider a failure right now is FFXIV. Even the developers admitted that they hurt the franchise, in a public statement or two.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-08-18 at 08:43 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  13. #13
    I think GW2 is welcome breath of fresh air. A step in right direction that will hopefully make our big leviathan move and try harder, to introduce something new. So in that regard I thing GW2 is welcome addition in MMO arena. And then, we have the omnius Titan, that might rock our world more than anything else. For as we all know. Blizzard does not build its games on innovation, it builds them on polish and perfection and taking good things and perfecting them for their own games.
    Bottom line is, even if you will never play GW2, the game will help WoW evolve further down the line.

  14. #14
    Most MMOs don't really die for lack of WOW's player base, for example. MMOs can chug along for years at a comparably modest, but profitable rate.

    EQ [as Drake pointed out] went on for 14 years worth of expansions. And continues to do so now.

    Really hard for MMOs to "die" or "fail" outright. The examples we have are catastrophic- Tabula Rasa, Warhammer or Vanguard. But again, something like Vanguard became quite robust over time simply due to increased production/tuning that occurs naturally over a product's life.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-08-18 at 08:46 PM.

  15. #15
    As successful as GW2 can become as of late seeing all these other failures with the exception of Rift I can't get the overwhelming feeling that WoW has grown too large.

    WoW is too large for the market and as WoW declines so does the players.

  16. #16
    Mechagnome Hjalmtyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    The only MMORPG I'd truly consider a failure right now is FFXIV. Even the developers admitted that they hurt the franchise, in a public statement or two.
    FFXIV was an MMO? Must've been terrible, didn't even hear of it. Didn't they learn after FFXI that MMORPG models are not the best for a Final Fantasy game?

    To be honest, X-2 made me abandon the genre. I took a look at XI and it looked like another cookie cutter korean MMO. Been ignoring Final Fantasy ever since cause it ain't living up to its history.
    "Do you know what it's like to fall on the floor, cry your guts out til you got no more? Hey man, now you're really livin'" - Mark Everett

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  17. #17
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    FFXIV has a lot of great concepts/features, but the implementation was done very poorly, so they basically issued a public apology and are working to remake it from scratch.

    If it ends up being subscription-less, and GW2 weren't coming out first, I'd probably care more about that than GW2.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-08-18 at 08:52 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Which MMORPGs are considered failures? Even EverQuest, the game that WoW supposedly "replaced" years ago, is still being played by many, and still making money.
    We share the same opinion, I hope I'm not misinterpreting your intention with this comment but I stated that I think the word "failure" is used too sensationally.

    Do you think GW2 will rise above this petty MMORPG war that has been raging constantly ever since World of Warcraft latched on to the dominant spot on top of its mountain throne? Do you believe GW2 provides an experience that, although of course has many familiar features, has enough freshness that it can actually launch and persist along side World of Warcraft without it being considered a "failure"? Now, for context, I don't think Aion failed. I don't think Rift failed. I think Warhammer, AoC, and SWTOR for all intents and purposes have failed in the developers vision of what they wished/thought it would be, but by definition they didn't *fail* either. Failed to live up to the hype, sure. Fail is a really packed word...which deserves unpacking each time you choose to use it so frivolously in regards to an MMORPG.
    Though there is much to be said about how it "feels" playing a game such as Warhammer of EverQuest even though they are still around. If the experience is akin to playing on a dead server with only a very tight knit community to communicate with...the game is not living up to its full potential.

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjalmtyr View Post
    FFXIV was an MMO? Must've been terrible, didn't even hear of it. Didn't they learn after FFXI that MMORPG models are not the best for a Final Fantasy game?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei0GxMOBztA
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  20. #20
    Final Fantasy 14 is relaunching pretty soon. So it's not really dead either, fwiw.

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