Quebec vs Canada, a strange love

[Diraction]

Has Canada ever considered, or wanted to become two seperate countries?

I'm not an expert in Canadian history, and would genuinely like to know.

The Canadian province of Québec is the only Canadian province where French is the majority language. In all other provinces, English is the majority language and in both cases by huge margins, i.e. English speakers are a small minority inside Québec and French speakers are an even smaller minority outside Québec. Only in the tiny province of New Brunswick are the numbers of French and English speakers anywhere close to 50/50 and New Brunswick isn't a significant percentage of the Canadian population.

Largely as a result of this difference and related cultural differences, a significant percentage of the population of Québec population supports secession, i.e. having Québec declare itself to be a country separate from the rest of Canada. People in the other provinces complain about various things from time to time, but there is no serious secessionist movement in Canada other than in Québec.

The people of Québec (including their politicians) agree that secession cannot happen unless it is supported by a majority vote in a referendum. There have been two referenda since the separatist Parti Québecois first took power in the 1970s, but both have failed. The second one, in the mid 1990s, came very close to succeeding, but partly because the wording of the second one was so convoluted and vague that it wasn't clear what a "yes" vote actually meant.

It's theoretically possible that a future referendum might succeed, but demographic changes in Québec (similar to demographic changes in Canada as a whole and, for that matter, in the United States) mean that a referendum is less and less likely to succeed with each passing generation.

[hellosaltygoodness]

i am originally from quebec and i am 100% a separatist. at the moment it is not the correct time for it but thats definitely what all people of quebec should be working towards. we are a different people from canadians and many canadians are deeply, deeply racist towards quebecois. its so clear even from this thread, full of quebecois politely saying "we dont hate canadians we just have different values and want to choose our own destiny" and being responded by canadians making racist post after racist post about how arrogant, self-centred, whiny, etc etc etc quebecois are. i would love to see the day quebec is its own free country.

[luckybeer]

Separatists are a stain on Canadian culture and values. Not only did they want to separate from Canada but they wanted all debt to Canada to be wiped clean. If Quebec wants to be a free country they shouldn't expect for it to happen on a free ride. I bloody hate the separatists.

You lost your referendum for a reason, Canada as a whole thinks you're morons. Why do you think the Bloc Quebecois was all but dismantled after the last election? You need to realize you aren't better than Canada, you are the redneck french of the world and one step above the newfies (not saying much)

[Maoli]

You lost your referendum for a reason, Canada as a whole thinks you're morons.

Ignorant much? Quebec citizens voted in their referendum. Has nothing to do with the rest of Canada. They BARELY voted No to seperating. Something like 60,000 votes more for No vs Yes. In a vote with like 6 million people? It was pretty close.

Personally I don't know of anyone that dislikes anyone from Quebec anymore then people from anywhere else. Each province has it's nice people, rude people,etc. I personally don't think the culture of Quebec is so different from the rest of Canada to warrant leaving. Plus it's going to complicate things between us if they did. Transporting through Quebec, the money they'd owe Canada from debt to the government,etc. I think it's a shame the political parties are still going on with this after so much time. I really can't see it happening, seems a waste of time for Quebecers.

[luckybeer]

Ignorant much? Quebec citizens voted in their referendum. Has nothing to do with the rest of Canada. They BARELY voted No to seperating. Something like 60,000 votes more for No vs Yes. In a vote with like 6 million people? It was pretty close.

Personally I don't know of anyone that dislikes anyone from Quebec anymore then people from anywhere else. Each province has it's nice people, rude people,etc. I personally don't think the culture of Quebec is so different from the rest of Canada to warrant leaving. Plus it's going to complicate things between us if they did. Transporting through Quebec, the money they'd owe Canada from debt to the government,etc. I think it's a shame the political parties are still going on with this after so much time. I really can't see it happening, seems a waste of time for Quebecers.

two separate thoughts. it should've been a period not a comma.

[Diraction]

Lots of Americans make negative comments about Americans from other states or regions, e.g. referring to people from the South as ignorant hillbillies, or people from New York as tricky and arrogant, or people from California as crazy, but that doesn't result in them wanting to secede from the country.

Besides, when you meet people individually, you make an individual decision about whether they're a nice person or not, regardless of what state or region they come from, because everyone knows every state has its share of nice people and obnoxious people, just like every Canadian province does.

[fartman69]

I've lived in Toronto my entire life and this Separatist movement is a joke, the separatists only make the other Quebecois look worse by trying to push this farce. People hate Quebecois because of the Separatists and end up grouping all French people together its quite simple really STOP THIS JOKE ITS NOT FUNNY ANYMORE.
@Diraction: we make off coloured comments about people from other provinces as well like "Newfies" and such

[Belize]

Being from Quebec, I can safely say that those who want to secede from Canada are idiots that cannot see further than their noses. Quebec does NOT have the economic stability to be it's own country. Honestly it's about as intelligent as those voting for Pauline Maroie to NOT get a 5% increase on dirt cheap college. Even though the government desperately need that little extra income.

---------- Post added 2012-08-27 at 01:27 AM ----------

N'arrêtez pas le combat, soyez fiers. Vive le Québec libre.

Et puis empaicher vos etudiant d'entrer a l universiter. Viver sur l aide sociale. Et quand l economie va etre dans le trous, pleigner vous au gouvernement.Imbecile...

Et desoler j ai perdue beacoup de mon francais depuit que j ai demenader au Etas.

[phenix]

Being from Quebec, I can safely say that those who want to secede from Canada are idiots that cannot see further than their noses.

And some of you wonder why most ppl outside of Montreal end up hating the anglos? Im for sovereignty as i think it would be beneficial in digging ourselves out of a financial hole. But im all for taking on our own provincial debt, our part of the federal debt and covering some cost of a 'transition'. As well as signing all the required treaties to allow free personal/commercial border crossing for Canadian provinces. But i also think it wont happen in the next few years. I'm also able to talk about it without needing to bash the other side.


Also like many mmo posters (whether in qc or the rest of canada) said...the news media about Qc in the rest of Canada is truly pathetic. I honestly wonder what kind of idiots write the stories. Some of them are literally the opposite of factual while others have no clue how to interpret what's going on.
The national post gave election survey results last week that were the opposite of every independent survey done in quebec up to that point. And if we go back a year or two...the news stories that came out in the rest of canada after the federal election where the NDP won 58 seats in qc were just incredibly stupid and even quite funny.

Et puis empaicher vos etudiant d'entrer a l universiter. Imbecile...

This statement is just plain dumb....how would cheaper university cost prevent ppl from going to university?

Having gone to university for 6 years i can say this.
Do universities (in general) need more money: Yes
Do universities waste a lot of money and overestimate their needs: Yes

This whole university tuition increase came after a meeting by the university rectors in which they established their ideal funding plan...but honestly how many branches of government get all the money they ask for? The whole system needs to be optimized to lower the expenses then they can do a normal tuition increase (like 100$ a years for 10years, not 75% in 5 years). I remember the whole time i studied at UdeM, they said they needed 400,000 square meter of space ...yet everywhere i went classrooms would be empty for 2+ hours (ie. more then enough to schedule a class). And with a public system why do universities spend a lot of money on publicity to get ppl to their campus instead of another school....its just wasted money. They should advertise for post-cegep education in general and not let individual university buy publicity at the Bell Center for a Habs game.

[Diraction]

Because Canadian federalism is extremely decentralized, the government of Québec already has the ability to take appropriate measures to protect the French language and Québec's culture and has already taken many such measures. It has means far beyond those available to an American state within the American federal system.

The secession of Québec, Canada's largest province by land area, and second-largest by population, would result in economic chaos both in Québec and the rest of Canada, and I have never heard a good argument over why that would be worth it, either for Québec or for the rest of Canada.

[phenix]

Personally I'd like to see a "North American Union."

Of course, that's a bit far off.

But a dreamer can dream, right?

I highly doubt it would work. First nevermind Qc vs rest of Canada....everyone can agree the economic and social interest of Canada and the USA are VASTLY different. Not gonna even think about border security like the euro zone has.


And besides, i think what is happening in Greece & Spain and to a lesser extent Italy shows that combining for a greater good doesn't work if everyone manages their money in totally opposite fashion.

---------- Post added 2012-08-26 at 11:37 PM ----------

The secession of Québec, Canada's largest province by land area, and second-largest by population, would result in economic chaos both in Québec and the rest of Canada, and I have never heard a good argument over why that would be worth it, either for Québec or for the rest of Canada.

The easiest would be to say that if the federal tax rate would be added to the provincial rate, Qc would get an extra 50 billion $ a year. Now obviously some services such as immigration/border security/employment insurance/etc would be an extra cost to add to the budget. But a fair number of services are duplicated at the federal/provincial level such as healthcare administration /public health(while not everything pharma drug approval) justice, environment/agriculture and lots of others. Also expenses such as armed forces would be almost non-existent (at least initially) in a independent Quebec compared to current levels. (as an example, armed forces cost about 20 billion in Canada so Quebec funds about 20-25% based on population so about 4 billion in saving right there. Even if QC were to take 1 billion to build a Coast guard service its still 3 billion/year we aren't spending on used British subs)

but honestly i admit that the economic plan for a independent qc has never been really talked about in the mainstream media (thus not debated). But i know that some budget plan were made quite few years ago to show the economic upside of it)

[HisaeDalv]

I highly doubt it would work. First nevermind Qc vs rest of Canada....everyone can agree the economic and social interest of Canada and the USA are VASTLY different. Not gonna even think about border security like the euro zone has.


And besides, i think what is happening in Greece & Spain and to a lesser extent Italy shows that combining for a greater good doesn't work if everyone manages their money in totally opposite fashion.

---------- Post added 2012-08-26 at 11:37 PM ----------




The easiest would be to say that if the federal tax rate would be added to the provincial rate, Qc would get an extra 50 billion $ a year. Now obviously some services such as immigration/border security/employment insurance/etc would be an extra cost to add to the budget. But a fair number of services are duplicated at the federal/provincial level such as healthcare administration /public health(while not everything pharma drug approval) justice, environment/agriculture and lots of others. Also expenses such as armed forces would be almost non-existent (at least initially) in a independent Quebec compared to current levels. (as an example, armed forces cost about 20 billion in Canada so Quebec funds about 20-25% based on population so about 4 billion in saving right there. Even if QC were to take 1 billion to build a Coast guard service its still 3 billion/year we aren't spending on used British subs)

but honestly i admit that the economic plan for a independent qc has never been really talked about in the mainstream media (thus not debated). But i know that some budget plan were made quite few years ago to show the economic upside of it)

this is false and 50Billions is misleading; the federal government also provides services in exchange of that taxe.
Alberta, the richest province who pays the most federal tax(amount not %) to Ottawa paid an estimated 14Billions more than they receive from ottawa in term of service/paid back.Quebec is a poor province in term of the amount they pay to Ottawa as far as tax amount is concerned(alberta,ontario,BC) all pay more.

Quebec is actually a winner in term of transfer payment because it is one of the poorest province.
TLDR: quebec would be the loser if they separate even if they got the federal tax to themselves.Quebec has too many poor/low income job and separation would make it worst.

[Diraction]

The easiest would be to say that if the federal tax rate would be added to the provincial rate, Qc would get an extra 50 billion $ a year. Now obviously some services such as immigration/border security/employment insurance/etc would be an extra cost to add to the budget. But a fair number of services are duplicated at the federal/provincial level such as healthcare administration /public health(while not everything pharma drug approval) justice, environment/agriculture and lots of others. Also expenses such as armed forces would be almost non-existent (at least initially) in a independent Quebec compared to current levels. (as an example, armed forces cost about 20 billion in Canada so Quebec funds about 20-25% based on population so about 4 billion in saving right there. Even if QC were to take 1 billion to build a Coast guard service its still 3 billion/year we aren't spending on used British subs)

but honestly i admit that the economic plan for a independent qc has never been really talked about in the mainstream media (thus not debated). But i know that some budget plan were made quite few years ago to show the economic upside of it)

Health care isn't duplicated at the federal level. Health care is provided at the provincial level only. The feds just give the provinces money to do that.
Likewise with agriculture.

Also, we don't know what it would cost an independent Québec to have its own army, navy, border guards, currency, foreign embassies etc., but that stuff isn't cheap.

Québec would also lose the money it currently gets from transfer payments.

And everyone in Québec would be left with savings accounts and pensions denominated in Canadian dollars, a currency over which they would no longer have any control.

National corporations headquartered in Québec would have to relocate their headquarters, since they would need to have their headquarters in Canada. It's hard to say what the impact of that might be on Montreal, but it would be significant.

Québecers employed by the federal government would have to lose their jobs, since they wouldn't be Canadian citizens anymore. Of course some of them would be rehired by the Québec government, but there wouldn't be any guarantees. The national passport processing center in Gatineau, Québec, for example, isn't going to need nearly as many employees if it's just a Québec passport processing center. The same would apply to a lot of other federal government facilities in Québec.

Like I said in an earlier post - secession would result in economic chaos and I've yet to see a good argument as to why that would ever be worthwhile.

[Deleted]

Personally I'd like to see a "North American Union."

Of course, that's a bit far off.

But a dreamer can dream, right?

Ahahhaha, le coup d'état inside....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union