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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire espoire's Avatar
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    RIP Shadow's 4pc t13 burst (and H Spine viability)

    On live, we all know and love Shadow's amazing t13 burst, which spikes well into the 70k DPS region. Sadly, next week it will be gone.

    The next closest thing: Mindbender + 4pc t13 + Devouring Plague spam.

    Math:
    Mindbender melees once every 1.25sec, dealing (318 + 0.58 * SP) [experimentally obtained value - subject to some error) shadow/melee damage.
    Cast DP every 1 GCD or 1.25 sec, whichever is more.
    12 DPs total (assuming at least 10% haste).
    Total time spent soft haste caps at 20% haste, at which point you're limited to the swing speed of the Mindbender. (Time spent: 15sec + 1GCD)
    The DoT continues to scale with haste beyond that, but it's a small effect.
    Devouring Plague deals (3336 + 2.3 * SP) on cast, and (328.8 + .156 * SP) every 1 sec, modified by haste.

    Dragonwrath
    SP: 11261
    Haste: 27.32%
    Crit: 18.32%
    Mastery: 23.36

    This comes out to 12 Mindbender melees for 97k, 12 Devouring Plague casts for 440k, and ~33.8 (24 w/o mastery) Devouring Plague ticks for 88k.
    38.6k DpET over the 16.18 sec activation.

    As you can see, the DpET is lower than most of our standard rotation, and should only replace Mind Flay and Mind Blast within the same window. With this in mind, the damage gain from the whole thing is much more subdued. Assuming one VT cast, one SW:P cast, and two SW casts within the window, we drop to 8 DP casts, dealing a mere 277.3k more than the Mind Flays it displaces. In total, this deals 636k over 16sec (731k with Twist of Faith), leaving Shadow no longer viable for 30%-nerfed H Spine of Deathwing. It can only barely scape "just pulling your weight" in the best available gear, including a legendary staff that takes months to farm up.

    Note that, while other combinations of talents can produce higher burst on one individual tendon, they cannot reach as high of an average performance across all 5-6 tendons. Power Infusion is only up for half of them, and FD;CL relies on having bloods DoT-ed up beforehand, and - crucially - them not dying. Insanity and Divine Insight are simply bad.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-23 at 03:08 AM ----------

    Although I suppose we could be taken as a healer. Alternating VT for mana and actual heals throughout the fight may allow a raid to run one fewer "real" healers. With Blood Corruption: Death mutating after the first dispel, Mass Dispel is now a good option for dealing with the multiple dispels during a roll and at the start of the fight.

  2. #2
    You can't spam DP...

    Just go Mindbender, ToF, and save 3 Orbs. You can proc the ToF right at the Amalgamation, follewed by your DoTs, followed by a 3 Orb DP, followed by MB.
    Last edited by Kaesebrezen; 2012-08-23 at 08:30 AM.

  3. #3
    u got me thinking ... but i kinda dont agree i think it wont be that bad

  4. #4
    I don't want to be rude or anything, but once the patch comes out there are only 3 raid lockouts i think before mop drops? Once mop hits nothing in DS will matter anymore since you could go back and faceroll at lvl 90 if you really wanted to still do it for some reason.

    Also unless you are on a tight 1 lift strategy then dps hasn't been an issue on spine for a long time now.

    Having said that I am also a bit worried that we will lose our on demand burst which always was good for many fights when timed with certain boss mechanics. But really we only had it for one tier of raiding so I am not sure how it will feel to lose it again.

  5. #5
    And btw 4pc T13 is nerfed, gives 15% more SW:P dmg instead of the 3 orbs per SF melee hit

  6. #6
    Oh boy, if it would still give three orbs each time SF/MB would do damage, we would do amazing there. DP dot stacks like ignite.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpyhooves View Post
    I don't want to be rude or anything, but once the patch comes out there are only 3 raid lockouts i think before mop drops? Once mop hits nothing in DS will matter anymore since you could go back and faceroll at lvl 90 if you really wanted to still do it for some reason.
    You're not rude, just ignorant.

    If you gave this a little more thought, you would know that some people would like to spend those 3 weeks still killing hc Madness and hc Raggy for mounts and gold (selling said mounts to buyers), because after MoP, the droprate of these mounts goes down to 0.1%. It's nice to still be efficient during those 3 weeks.

    But you know, insulting people is easier I guess.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by emni View Post
    You're not rude, just ignorant.

    If you gave this a little more thought, you would know that some people would like to spend those 3 weeks still killing hc Madness and hc Raggy for mounts and gold (selling said mounts to buyers), because after MoP, the droprate of these mounts goes down to 0.1%. It's nice to still be efficient during those 3 weeks.

    But you know, insulting people is easier I guess.
    Oh boy.... Ignorance is flying. First, this won't make you "nonviable" in any sense of the world. If you wipe 3 weeks before a new expansion because your Shadow Priest is doing a little less damage, you probably don't deserve that mount or reward. Also, the mounts don't drop to a .1% drop chance. They drop to a 1% drop chance.

    You'll still be efficient even with a small dps decrease during burst phases.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    Oh boy.... Ignorance is flying. First, this won't make you "nonviable" in any sense of the world. If you wipe 3 weeks before a new expansion because your Shadow Priest is doing a little less damage, you probably don't deserve that mount or reward. Also, the mounts don't drop to a .1% drop chance. They drop to a 1% drop chance.

    You'll still be efficient even with a small dps decrease during burst phases.
    I'm really really really not sure it'll be a 'small' dps decrease during burst phases. If your raid group can't complete it by that point in the expansion, that is another matter however.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    Oh boy.... Ignorance is flying. First, this won't make you "nonviable" in any sense of the world. If you wipe 3 weeks before a new expansion because your Shadow Priest is doing a little less damage, you probably don't deserve that mount or reward. Also, the mounts don't drop to a .1% drop chance. They drop to a 1% drop chance.

    You'll still be efficient even with a small dps decrease during burst phases.
    Do you have a quote for that percentage?

    Also, whether or not we deserve that mount is not up to you to decide. And if the shadow priest doing a little more damage gets us there, then I say we deserve it. Considering our 10-mans are with 2 shadow priests, I'd rather we both do a little bit more damage.

    EDIT: My point was merely that yes, there is very much a reason to raid the next 3 weeks and try and maximize your raid's DPS to make the kills easier or be able to bring in someone who isn't so good at their class just for the mount. You won't be able to get it as easily in MoP.
    Last edited by emni; 2012-08-23 at 11:14 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by emni View Post
    Do you have a quote for that percentage?.
    Do you? Since you are the first person who threw out a number perhaps you should back that up before you start demanding other people start backing up their numbers.

  12. #12
    Like someone pointed out, the 4-set is changed so there'll be no DP spamming.

    For spine, pick up Mindbender and PI. Our burst wont be as good as it is currently but I think we'll be viable still.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cham View Post
    and PI.
    ToF is most likely better.

    PI might not even give you one additional VT/SW:P/DP tick at most, while ToF (which you can trigger at the Amalgamation and with CoTC also at the little blobs) is a flat out 15% damage increase.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    ToF is most likely better.

    PI might not even give you one additional VT/SW:P/DP tick at most, while ToF (which you can trigger at the Amalgamation and with CoTC also at the little blobs) is a flat out 15% damage increase.
    PI always adds at least 1 tick to all 3 dots. That is not to say it is the better choice for this fight.

  15. #15
    3 weeks of farmed content nerfed to the ground. You should manage.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    You won't be the only one, Elemental Shaman are losing our current Elemental Mastery (15% damage, 20% haste, and if you actually nuke, CD will come off about 1.5min which means you can use at every tendon phrase), and even if we choose the new Elemental Mastery (30% haste, 2min fixed CD, not up for every tendon), it won't be the same, still a huge loss over current one.

    But, what ISN'T viable for H Spine atm? Even since 20%+ buff I don't think the tendon were an issue with any groups anymore, with 30% buff you can do it with 8-9 people reasonably easy anyway, so don't worry about being viable or not too much.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by emni View Post
    Do you have a quote for that percentage?

    Also, whether or not we deserve that mount is not up to you to decide. And if the shadow priest doing a little more damage gets us there, then I say we deserve it. Considering our 10-mans are with 2 shadow priests, I'd rather we both do a little bit more damage.

    EDIT: My point was merely that yes, there is very much a reason to raid the next 3 weeks and try and maximize your raid's DPS to make the kills easier or be able to bring in someone who isn't so good at their class just for the mount. You won't be able to get it as easily in MoP.
    The only mounts that ever had a .1% drop chance was the Rivendare's Deathcharger and the old ZG Tiger. Every rare mount left in-game that is a chance drop is a 1-2% drop chance. And no, I don't have the quote because all of them were on the old wow site and all the links to the posts are broken.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome soulyouth's Avatar
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    good hated 4pc t13 turned us into drooling arcane mages

  19. #19
    Grunt Tsilyikes's Avatar
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    this thread...

    chances are if losing burst from your 4pc will cause you to not kill tendons in two lifts you've got other problems on this fight, namely: execution and the rest of your raid group slacking. honestly spine specs/gearing have not been needed for a long time.
    Last edited by Tsilyikes; 2012-08-23 at 07:21 PM.

  20. #20
    Now, I mean this politely... who cares? Spine Heroic has been out for 8 months now. With nerfs, tendon damage hasn't been an issue for anyone with a basic idea of their class and saving CDs for it. A month after this change Mists will be out.

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