View Poll Results: Do you think Lance Armstrong should face trial for fraud?

Voters
110. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    53 48.18%
  • No

    57 51.82%
Page 1 of 14
1
2
3
11
... LastLast
  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    457

    Lance Armstrong not defending in court

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/sp...titles.html?hp

    What is your opinion on this? Do you agree with the USADA? Should the Tour de France victories and prize money be stripped?

    In my own opinion, I don't think this should be done. He has done all the doping tests and all of them were negative. Some of them are still available for testing and so far, no positive tests have been found. In my book, that means he's clean. But you know what they say, you're not a cheater unless you're caught. But they also say, innocent until proven guilty. And being Americans, who are supposed to be proud of that last sentence, ironically, they keep pushing and pushing after all those negative tests. It's a shame to be honest. Let the UCI decide, they are the governing body of the sport.

  2. #2
    What's the basis for the charges, if all the tests were negative then it seems like there really isn't any.

    If he was found positive at some point, then strip the titles and make an example of him, imo.

  3. #3
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Mini Soda
    Posts
    22,138
    Unless there's a positive test sample somewhere or he admits otherwise, he's clean.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    457
    No tests were positive. So far it's only been allegations of former team mates, working together with doctors who have given doping to other people, working with a coach (Bruyneel) that is a bit shady, etc.

  5. #5
    It's unclear from that tidbit whether he's admitting guilt, or just sort of saying "fuck you, think whatever you like".

    If you're not going to simply accept the fact that a given athlete passed the tests you had available to you AT THAT TIME, then they need to probably strip every other multi-year TdF winner as well. Unless you're willing to believe that Indurain, Hinault, etc were all riding 100% legit.

    The entire debate cheapens pro cycling in its entirety, and actually other sports as well.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Unless there's a positive test sample somewhere or he admits otherwise, he's clean.
    He's tested positive twice. Once he got off because his personal doctor provided him with an alibi (a prescription for a saddle sore cream provided after the fact) and because he pulled an OJ defense by spending lots of money on lawyers to discredit a very reputable testing lab.

    But let's assume for a moment that these positive tests were not from cheating. Virtually every rider in Armstrong's heyday was tested over and over and over and came up clean before they were finally caught. Some were never caught but were almost certainly cheating. Even now they almost never get caught but it is beyind doubt that virtually all of them are still cheating because of the unnatural test results that consistently come in just below the limits. Not getting caught is not proof that you were clean. It is only the lack of that particular kind of evidence that you were cheating.

    But let's look at it from another angle. Armstrong was able to dominate against younger riders who were cheating in a sport where cheating makes such a huge difference. He wasn't able to dominate them when he should have been in his physical prime (early to mid 20s) but he could when he was older and they were cheating while he wasn't? Sorry, it is simply not credible. Add on top the accusations by multiple insiders that they know that he was doping.

    Honestly, I wouldn't take his titles away even though he was almost certainly doping. it's sort of like baseball and the steroid era: yes he cheated, but so was almost everyone else. We can't really tell what the result should be, so let's leave it and put a huge asterisk next to it all.
    Last edited by ptwonline; 2012-08-24 at 03:18 AM.

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire Kivana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Luton, England
    Posts
    395
    There are some right fuckwits in charge of major sports, their retarded excuses for things and outright dumb choices just show their ignorance. Lance has NEVER tested positive and they have the samples taken on record and a few can be used to test again. All this is being based on heresay from other competitors who raced with Lance.

    Why do people have to keep on at LA ? He defied the odds to beat cancer and defied everyone with his impressive win streak and achievements.

    Nothing should be done with his past victories/money/medals UNLESS he is proven guilty of doping.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    It's unclear from that tidbit whether he's admitting guilt, or just sort of saying "fuck you, think whatever you like".
    Exactly what I'm thinking. From what little I skimmed over, it sounds like he's completely giving up, which would mean that he loses all medals / wins, which to me, signals that he's guilty. Why else would you give up? This tarnishes your *entire* career, and everything you've worked for. I couldn't imagine giving up, although I can definitely see how daunting it would be to fight this for this long.

  9. #9
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Mini Soda
    Posts
    22,138
    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    He's tested positive twice. Once he got off because his personal doctor provided him with an alibi (a prescription for a saddle sore cream provided after the fact) and because he pulled an OJ defense by spending lots of money on lawyers to discredit a very reputable testing lab.

    But let's assume for a moment that these positive tests were not from cheating. Virtually every rider in Armstrong's heyday was tested over and over and over and came up clean before they were finally caught. Some were never caught but were almost certainly cheating. Even now they almost never get caught but it is beyind doubt that virtually all of them are still cheating because of the unnatural test results that consistently come in just below the limits. Not getting caught is not proof that you were clean. It is only the lack of that particular kind of evidence that you were cheating.

    But let's look at it from another angle. Armstrong was able to dominate against younger riders who were cheating in a sport where cheating makes such a huge difference. He wasn't able to dominate them when he should have been in his physical prime (early to mid 20s) but he could when he was older and they were cheating while he wasn't? Sorry, it is simply not credible. Add on top the accusations by multiple insiders that they know that he was doping.

    Honestly, I wouldn't take his titles away even though he was almost certainly doping. it's sort of like baseball and the steroid era: yes he cheated, but so was almost everyone else. We can't really tell what the result should be, so let's leave it and put a huge asterisk next to it all.
    The science of the lab was questionable at best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    In October 2005, in response to calls from the International Olympic Committee and the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) for an independent investigation, the UCI appointed Dutch lawyer Emile Vrijman to investigate the handling of urine tests by the French national anti-doping laboratory, LNDD. Vrijman was head of the Dutch anti-doping agency for ten years; since then he has worked as a defense attorney defending high-profile athletes against doping charges.[97] Vrijman's report cleared Armstrong because of improper handling and testing.[98][99] The report said tests on urine samples were conducted improperly and fell so short of scientific standards that it was "completely irresponsible" to suggest they "constitute evidence of anything."[100]
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    . He wasn't able to dominate them when he should have been in his physical prime (early to mid 20s) but he could when he was older and they were cheating while he wasn't?
    Lance didn't get "good" till he had cancer and lost significant weight. That is a well-known fact. Whether or not he has taken PEDs or illegal substances has little to do with that

  11. #11
    They all cheat.......so why single out any person. It's why I can barely tolerate watching the Olympics.

  12. #12
    Epic! Zatheyll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Academy City
    Posts
    1,634
    Quote Originally Posted by icedwarrior View Post
    Exactly what I'm thinking. From what little I skimmed over, it sounds like he's completely giving up, which would mean that he loses all medals / wins, which to me, signals that he's guilty. Why else would you give up? This tarnishes your *entire* career, and everything you've worked for. I couldn't imagine giving up, although I can definitely see how daunting it would be to fight this for this long.
    It only tarnishes your career if you care that much what people think about you. Would you really spend the rest of your life defending yourself just over a few titles and what others think of you? Or would you give up the headache and go on living your life? What matters is that YOU are the one that won, and you know it no matter what everyone else thinks.

    If I was in his shoes I would have done the same thing. A few titles mean little to me, even if I spent most of my life on them, if it means I can't fully enjoy the rest of my life. He said he would rather devote his time on helping cancer patients then fighting in court over some medals, so good on him.

    Also, if you read the article it states that he knows he is not guilty, the countless drug tests proved he is not guilty, and he is tired of what he calls an "unconstitutional witch-hunt".

    It's sad how a thing like this happens when there are probably far worse cases this "agency" should be working on.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Meejum View Post
    Lance didn't get "good" till he had cancer and lost significant weight. That is a well-known fact. Whether or not he has taken PEDs or illegal substances has little to do with that
    He was already a rider at an elite level. Just not at the very peak. And certainly not dominating.

    And the weight claim is actually a myth. Yes, he lost weight from his chemo but his doctors said that 8 months later he was back to his previous weight.

    Having done some distance cycling myself, I know that a lot of it is mental discipline. Perhaps his cancer helped him focus more but he would have had to be very focused (and pain tolerant) already just to make it to that level to begin with. But it is also largely physical, and the disadvantage he would have been at if the others doped and he didn't makes it very, very difficult to believe.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Sykol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    1,226
    Even if he cheated, every other cyclist did the same. Like, literally almost every single one. He still beat them, and did it with one fewer testicle than everyone else.

    If he didn't cheat, he beat a bunch of roiders. Maybe that one less ball made him more streamlined or something.

    Either way, he's still better than his competition. I don't see the point in this whole thing unless you want to just outright ban cycling, because by the time it trickles down to people who didn't actually cheat, the winners would be people who took four months to finish the Tour de France.

  15. #15
    Titan smrund's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In the state of Denial.
    Posts
    14,493
    If there's no evidence of cheating, then all the accusations in the world mean nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  16. #16
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Iowa - Franconia
    Posts
    12,641
    He was tested positive before, he refused to undergo tests that could either prove his innocence, or likely confirm his guilt.
    With that said, verdict is perfectly fine.
    We are talking about sports and the regulations in place for the sport. Therefore, any athlete competing in that very sport has to abide. If they don't they suffer consequences.
    And even if your name is Lance Armstrong, you abide, or you are done.

    Now it's only to wait if he gets stripped of his titles.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-24 at 03:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulanae View Post
    They all cheat.......so why single out any person. It's why I can barely tolerate watching the Olympics.
    I wouldn't generalize with such statement.. Not all, but many cheat. And many of those who did, confessed. And some of those who confessed stood witness against Armstrong.

  17. #17
    Do not give a shit, it's bicycle racing. May not be my cup of tea but...it's bicycle racing.

    Seems like Lance just got tired of dealing with the bullshit and said 'fuck it". Which I honestly do not blame him for...

  18. #18
    unless you fight and deny anything thrown at you = instant guilty? rofl what kind of childish anti doping board is this?

    he's not fighting it because he's fed up of the bullshit, unless they have some proof they shouldn't be able to strip him of anything...

  19. #19
    After years of testing and saying he didn't do it, he says enough is enough and is done with it. So they use this as some crap reason to say he is guilty. Maybe he is I don't know but they have no proff and years of hounding him is all they have ended up doing. Its pure crap if they strip his titles with nothing more then him not wanting to keep fighting them to go by.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  20. #20
    I am Murloc! muto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Inside a Bubble
    Posts
    5,995
    He's obviously guilty, if he wasn't he would fight the doping charges.
    Last edited by muto; 2012-08-24 at 08:58 PM.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •