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  1. #1
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Just hit 90. Disappointing Realization. [Shuriken Toss vs Sinister Strike]

    Hiya MMO-Champ Rogues.

    Lemme cut to the heart of the matter.

    I think we can all agree that Shuriken Toss is a pretty underwhelming abilitiy. But last night, in testing, I made a very startling realization. If Shuriken Toss advanced Bandit's Guile, it would be more powerful than Sinister Strike for Combat (ignoring potential Main Gauche procs)...

    That's all just based on some pitiful amount of head-math. Basically, on a 90 Rogue with full Malevolent Glad's gear, Sinister Strike hits for an ass-kicking 9k, whereas Shuriken Toss costs half as much, still triggers poisons, and hits for 7k.

    Yeah, it doesn't give the combo point proc with Revealing Strike, but it's still a guarenteed two combo points per 'cost' of Sinister Strike. It also doesn't have a minimum range (you can toss in melee).

    Naturally, I'm not sure how well Shuriken Toss scales with gear, though, and wether or not it runs off Melee or Ranged stats.



    I dunno. I feel like this speaks much more about the state of Rogues than anything else I've seen this expansion.

  2. #2
    INB4 Combat rogues spamming Shuriken Toss at melee during Deep Insight.

  3. #3
    Glad to see Shuriken Toss is a reasonable ranged alternative so we rogues can bitchslap dragons in their stupid airphases.

    I don't think blizzard wants viable in all fights tho, 70-80% DMG of Sinister Strike, Backstab, or Mutiliate with same energy cost is how it will end up probably. 80% of damage while costing 1/2 as much as SS is too good IMHO.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Drknife View Post
    Glad to see Shuriken Toss is a reasonable ranged alternative so we rogues can bitchslap dragons in their stupid airphases.

    I don't think blizzard wants viable in all fights tho, 70-80% DMG of Sinister Strike, Backstab, or Mutiliate with same energy cost is how it will end up probably. 80% of damage while costing 1/2 as much as SS is too good IMHO.
    Since Rogues can't auto-attack while Shuriken Tossing (if used at range) they'll probably just add a minimum range.
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  5. #5
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    INB4 Combat rogues spamming Shuriken Toss at melee during Deep Insight.
    And... Why hadn't I considered that.

    Have we just discovered a new playstyle?

    Inb4 nerfs.

  6. #6
    Kinda reminds me the old shiv spam build that dealt so much damage.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    INB4 Combat rogues spamming Shuriken Toss at melee during Deep Insight.
    GODDAMNIT

    Whyyyyy do you have to RUIN things?


    This is why we can't have nice things! Now they'll make it hit for 300 and not proc lethal poisons....

    :P

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-24 at 07:37 PM ----------

    Also, fight them hard if they add a minimum range. I don't want to be the only tard in the game that still has that mechanic, now that hunters are free and clear.

  8. #8
    I'm very confused as to what niche ST is supposed to fill. A ranged slow? A ranged CP builder? Just... a ranged attack?

    Because it doesn't fulfill either one of those roles very well. Having a ranged CP builder doesn't really help a class that mainly focuses on white melee attacks. A ranged slow isn't too shabby for PVP needs, but the range itself is rather disappointing. Overall, it just seems like a generally useless talent that was just thrown in to fill the last tier 90 spot.

    The OP's disappointing realization isn't as disappointing as the ability itself.

  9. #9
    Man, that's negative. I've literally wanted this ability since vanilla. Back then I didn't think I'd get poisons on the shuriken though!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Man, that's negative. I've literally wanted this ability since vanilla. Back then I didn't think I'd get poisons on the shuriken though!
    Whenever I thought of a shuriken like ability it was usually not just.. A small, almost unnoticeable shuriken. It was this larger AOE type, hard hitting nuke. Like a giant start rushing from the rogue, damaging everything in a cone in front of him. Something akin to the Glaive Toss thingy that hunters will be getting, ironically...

    ST, as it is, is very disappointing in my opinion.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Whenever I thought of a shuriken like ability it was usually not just.. A small, almost unnoticeable shuriken. It was this larger AOE type, hard hitting nuke. Like a giant start rushing from the rogue, damaging everything in a cone in front of him. Something akin to the Glaive Toss thingy that hunters will be getting, ironically...

    ST, as it is, is very disappointing in my opinion.
    This came to my mind: (not the best of images but shows the proportions well enough and hopefully I'm allowed to link this)

    http://novavilakonoha.webs.com/fuuma_shuriken.gif

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    This came to my mind: (not the best of images but shows the proportions well enough and hopefully I'm allowed to link this)

    http://novavilakonoha.webs.com/fuuma_shuriken.gif
    Yeah, something just like that.

  13. #13
    You guys are all missing the point ---- SINISTER STRIKE SUCKS!

    Lets petition for a new name.... Sissy strike

  14. #14
    If we can actually do serious ranged damage, just imagine how epic it would be!

    Those frost mages will have no idea wtf is going on.

  15. #15
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brightnail View Post
    You guys are all missing the point ---- SINISTER STRIKE SUCKS!

    Lets petition for a new name.... Sissy strike
    Thanks for being the first person to realize what I was saying.

    Shuriken Toss if FREAKING PATHETIC.

    And it's better than Sinister Strike...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Brightnail View Post
    Lets petition for a new name.... Sissy strike
    Sissy-nister strike ? :>

  17. #17
    They made Sinister Strike into Sissy Strike so that we think Eviscerate is strong.

    ....it's like Blizzard doesn't think raiders look at their numbers....

    (in that our most-frequent damaging ability is hitting like a wet noodle while other classes are having theirs hit for 40k non-crit)
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  18. #18
    The problem is simply Slice and Dice, and how every spec is balanced around it... Can't sufficiently stress that it needs a heavy nerf or to be completely removed, at least from Assassination and Sub. It is the sole reason for the heavy spec homogenization and lack of spec identity/feel.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    The problem is simply Slice and Dice, and how every spec is balanced around it... Can't sufficiently stress that it needs a heavy nerf or to be completely removed, at least from Assassination and Sub. It is the sole reason for the heavy spec homogenization and lack of spec identity/feel.
    It's doubly so for combat. Not only does SnD need to be nerfed--so does ambidexterity. Ambidexterity needs to be nerfed to the level of the old DW spec talent (+50% offhand damage instead of +75%), and have it buff sinister strike damage to compensate. Sinister strike does significantly less damage than backstab at a greater energy cost, and the reason for that is just how much of combat's damage comes from the offhand autoattacks (thanks to ambidexterity).

    Also, revealing strike needs to be buffed from +35% finisher effectiveness to +45% (same as glyphed live version), imo.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-08-25 at 06:53 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    It's doubly so for combat. Not only does SnD need to be nerfed--so does ambidexterity. Ambidexterity needs to be nerfed to the level of the old DW spec talent (+50% offhand damage instead of +75%), and have it buff sinister strike damage to compensate. Sinister strike does significantly less damage than backstab at a greater energy cost, and the reason for that is just how much of combat's damage comes from the offhand autoattacks (thanks to ambidexterity).

    Also, revealing strike needs to be buffed from +35% finisher effectiveness to +45% (same as glyphed live version), imo.
    I do not necessarily agree.
    I actually like Combat as it is, to be honest. A spec that emphasizes on auto attack use, giving it great sustained dps but mediocre burst dps is fine. It's unique in its own way. The problem, however, is that Assassination and Subtlety are no different!

    It's fine to have one spec that does one thing well but is less potent for other things; It's a problem when ALL 3 specs function the same way!

    Slice and Dice can stay like it is for Combat. Hell, I would say it should become a spec specific buff. Slice should be exclusive to Combat. It just needs to stay away from Sub and Assassination, and both specs should be given something fitting in return.

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