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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    10% < 15%, correct.

    Still not buying your argument about DR being better than Max Health increase + Health Restore of equivalent amounts.

    The number of HPs doesn't matter. The total damage you can take, with or without healing is what counts.

    If you have +50% health and +50% healing received, you live 50% longer, with or without healing.
    Ok, lets look at time to death, because those models are easy(ish), poignant, and possibly easier to comprehend.

    According to my model:

    Based on the following parameters, where someone takes twice as much damage as they are healed for, where:

    Health = 100,000
    Damage = 10,000 DPS
    Healing = 5,000 HPS

    The Time to Death is:
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 28.6s
    • 10% S and H: 23.5s


    A difference of 21.6%, or the one with DR will live 21.6% longer. That is a long time in pvp. In this case, it's more than an entire Deep Freeze.

    However, if the model is (or is supposed to be) a 10% increase to health, instead of stamina, it looks like:

    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 28.6s
    • 10% H and H: 24.4s

    A difference of 16.9%

    Now lets look at it if they are the same, i.e., 15% DR vs. 15% healing + sta.

    S and H:
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 28.6s
    • 15% S and H: 25.5s

    Delta: 12.3%

    For increased H and H model
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 28.6s
    • 15% H and H: 27.0s

    A difference of 5.6%.


    Not scaling too well. In fact, it scales horribly. Additionally, it scales based on how well you are being healed as well, massively in favor of DR.

    ---

    So for the following parameters:

    Health = 100,000
    Damage = 10,000 DPS
    Healing = 7,500 HPS

    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 100s
    • 15% H and H: 83.3s

    Delta: 19.6%

    For 10%:

    TtD:
    • 10% DR: 66.7s
    • 10% H and H: 62.8s

    Delta 6.1%

    Considering how much more powerful healing is than damage (and always will be because of the resilience issue only applying to damage (it should be partial to healing as well!!!), this problem is exacerbated.

    The real situation, to drive the point home (I hope):

    H and H model
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 100s
    • 10% H and H: 62.9s

    Delta: 59%

    I don't have access to the information right now, but if we have 10% increased Sta, and 10% healing instead (as is stated on the tooltip), the numbers are even worse (of course):

    H and H model
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 100s
    • 10% H and H: 60.4s

    Delta: 65.6%

    This model assumes constant healing. This is a VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION. Warlocks have no healing, with the exception of ember tap, and that is a percent heal, which skews this model. We can't take Soul Leech, because the other talent is more useful in pvp (Soul Leech should absolutely be baseline, as it always has been). We can glyph Siphon Life because there are too many other glyphs to use in pvp that are a lot more useful than a small heal (with the possible exception of affliction). If we are under melee pressure (which is where our problems lie, and is the topic of this thread) we can't use Drain Life with any level of meaningful effectiveness or reliability. Of course, ember tap is almost impossible to use with any regularity, as embers are very hard to build, and are our main source of damage; plus it's is a percent heal so it skews the model, but I thought it should be mentioned.

    Now lets look at a no healing model:

    H and H model
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 11.76s
    • 10% H and H: 11s

    Delta: 6.95%

    S and H model
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 11.76s
    • 15% H and H: 11.5s

    Delta: 2.3%

    S and H model
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 11.76s
    • 10% S and H: 10.5s

    Delta: 11.3%


    S and H model
    TtD:
    • 15% DR: 11.76s
    • 15% S and H: 10.8s

    Delta: 8.76%


    ---

    I hope I have driven the point home. The model to increase health and healing is not in any way equivalent to the model to decrease damage, not even in the very best case scenario (i.e., the percent is low, and no one receives a single heal ever).

    To make matters worse, those classes that have DR, also have better self healing than we do. If you'll notice, in the models, the more healing they receive, the better DR works in keeping someone alive. (This doesn't mention the fact that they also have more CC available to them in melee situations, as well as more getaways AND defensive cooldowns that can be cast while stunned!)

    QED
    Last edited by Slyver; 2012-09-13 at 12:13 AM.

  2. #522
    You're totally not helping your case by comparing a pound of gold to 2 pounds of lead.
    Last edited by Xelnath; 2012-09-13 at 12:17 AM.

  3. #523
    He's not just comparing 10% H and H to 15% DR

    Its understandable that warlocks dont have the same % as the other classes because of other CDs.

    Hes showing that even if it was 15% vs 15% or 10% vs 10%, DR is better.
    Last edited by scmpoe; 2012-09-13 at 12:21 AM.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    Thanks! a good step but Imo Soul Leech should give from ALL sources of damage even pets, then more ppl in PVP would consider using it, Soulleech even with Fel Flame is just terrible for Demo PVP.


    ---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 05:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by scmpoe View Post
    He's not just comparing 10% H and H to 15% DR

    Hes showing that even if it was 15% vs 15% or 10% vs 10%, DR is better.
    At 100 health with 50% damage reduction, you need +100% health and +100% healing to survive the same amount of damage.

    DR and HP+%Heal do not grow at the same rate. This is a truism. However, there are always values of DR and +X% Hp w/ +%Y Healing taken that match equivalent levels of DR.

  5. #525
    yes I want the milk aswell but I didnt said any lie about soulleech

  6. #526
    Well I think with Xelnath slighty tweaking fel armor that should help a bit and im glad for the clarification on how it's part of our defensive "budget". I also am glad to know UR will get that tweak and it makes sense when compared to shield wall/IBF and such. I personally still think DB still needs to be castable while cc'd and have it's cd at around 2 minutes as it's closer to an ability like dispersion then it is ice block/bubble. And if the cd "has" to stay at 3 min "which just seems a bit much" it still REALLY needs to be castable while being cc'd. That would help us survive sooo much better.
    Last edited by Lucidious; 2012-09-13 at 12:54 AM.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    At 100 health with 50% damage reduction, you need +100% health and +100% healing to survive the same amount of damage.

    DR and HP+%Heal do not grow at the same rate. This is a truism. However, there are always values of DR and +X% Hp w/ +%Y Healing taken that match equivalent levels of DR.
    Yes, this is true. I was comparing relative abilities between classes, because that is what is important. Not to homogenize, but to be viable. I was also showing that the apparent 10% DR equivalent as was implied was not in fact that, but measurably less than that.

    I am without a doubt playing my mage. I am just having too much fun with it atm, and not enough with my warlock. It is a shame, because I honestly wanted to play my warlock, and if I could make it work, even if it wasn't as strong, I would do it. I just can't, the tools aren't there. Might as well ask me to drive to South America in a car with three wheels (where it's optimal working condition has 4).

    Looking at my models, if it is 10% stamina and healing, the equivalent DR is ~7%. If it is health and healing its ~9%. The thing is, with DR, it scales non-linearly and is a function of multiple variables, so, 15% DR is ~ the same as 22% S and H, or ~18% H and H (both are dependent on the amount of healing vs. damage received as well).

    The 20 (or 25%) DR we used to have, along with the + healing etc. were so much more powerful, they aren't even in the same ballpark. Was it OP? I don't know, I didn't win all the time. There are other classes that were just as good and just as viable. However, the difference between 20% DR and 30% healing, vs 10 H and H

    is...

    wait for it...

    Health = 100,000
    Damage = 10,000 DPS
    Healing = 5,000 HPS


    TtD:
    • 25% DR, 30% healing: 66.7
    • 10% H and H: 24.4

    Delta: 172.8%

    What we had, vs. what we have now, 172.8% more time to live (i.e. we lived nearly 3 times longer under the same conditions). That doesn't count the substantially better healing, or twice as much CC we had.

    You would think that cutting all the warlock pvp category abilities by a half to a third of previous might be a little overkill based on the perception that warlocks were a little more powerful than other classes.

    Well, at least I think that, but what do I know?

    I know I'm not going to play a warlock...

    Though I am still on a crusade!
    Last edited by Slyver; 2012-09-13 at 01:16 AM.

  8. #528
    Where do you get 25% DR?

    Soul Link was NOT true DR. It was damage transference, which could be eliminated by killing the pet.

  9. #529
    I kinda wish we had that transference back tbh. But back to my question about DB getting to be able to be cast while cc'd Xelnath. Is that something your looking into? It would be a huge help to not get blown up in a deep or things like that. And whether or not it could be made a 2 min cd like dispersion? If not 3 min is fine I guess but the cast while cc'd thing is actually a HUGE problem.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Where do you get 25% DR?

    Soul Link was NOT true DR. It was damage transference, which could be eliminated by killing the pet.
    In WotLK (I think) it could be glyphed to 25%, for quite a while if I remember correctly.

    It was effectively DR, because we passively healed the pet. It took no effort, it was just part of what we did. Yes, it could be 'dispelled', but getting a pet again wasn't as difficult as it is now (and except for destro, it isn't that hard now). For all intents and purposes, it really was 20% DR.
    Last edited by Slyver; 2012-09-13 at 03:34 AM.

  11. #531
    could be eliminated by killing the pet.
    Well with the old instant pet summon talent + soul shards being kinda bad for anything except instant pet summons, warlocks never got stuck without pets.

    The Burning Crusade/WotlK strat of "kill the warlock pet" died when people realized warlocks never ran out of resummons.

    Only time the damage transfer was really gone was ironically when another warlock banished the pet, and I remember the damage difference being quite huge when a warlock had his pet banished, so not having that soul link anymore on top of 20% less passive healing seems scary!

    Time will tell if the new active CDs will make up for it. I think demonic gateway will be a huge part of our survival kit in arenas, a 2nd portal seems pretty insane.
    Last edited by scmpoe; 2012-09-13 at 02:15 AM.

  12. #532
    good luck casting it

  13. #533
    well the new soul link is more killing yourself + your pet then it helps
    for duels ok, but for arena .. oh there is a 30k pet whiout resilence (atleast if feels that way) instant pyro,overpower,root attack -> kill pet ha warlock dies lol^^

    i loved the old base defense ability, 25% was a lot and never killed the pet unless it was focused.
    and like posted above the 5sec gateway will only be usefull when it's not 5sec and doesn't disapear. in 7sec you can rezz someone (with some haste atleast) so standing there for 5sec just to build a bit defense will probably hurt more then it helps

  14. #534
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    What about rolling the Blood Pact buff into Dark Intent rather than attaching it to the Imp?

    It would help keep us from being too reliant a pet for utility if for whatever reason you didn't have a Stamina buff (and without Blood Pact, the Imp still has strong utility), and allows us to reach a little bit of extra effective health as a baseline effect without requiring that Imp.

    It also makes Dark Intent something a little more exciting in a raid comp that already contains a Mage.
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2012-09-13 at 03:42 AM.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    What about rolling the Blood Pact buff into Dark Intent rather than attaching it to the Imp?

    It would help keep us from being too reliant a pet for utility if for whatever reason you didn't have a Stamina buff (and without Blood Pact, the Imp still has strong utility), and allows us to reach a little bit of extra effective health as a baseline effect without requiring that Imp.

    It also makes Dark Intent something a little more exciting in a raid comp that already contains a Mage.
    they did nothing about spell haste buff why would you think they should for stamina?

    just downed heroic rag yesterday without stamina and spell haste buff... was not that hard, but could be easier with that buffs

    they said "if your raid don't have a hybrid caster then probably there isn't much casters to get the buff anyways"...
    WRONG, we had mage, lock, + 2 healers, almost half of the raid on a 10man.

    thank god i'm on a 25man guild

  16. #536
    To be honest, I prefer the new Soul Link one because you can cancel the buff any time to avoid dying and it works (kind of) like a constant shield or a constant + health increase. But it has 3 main problems:
    1. Pets actually die (in PvP) in the time you take to blink once.
    2. The health penalty on the pet should definitely go or be reduced significantly. 50% is just too much. It would be better if point 1 wasn't true.
    3. Cancelling the buff doesn't grant back the health lost to the pet, so if the demon is being trained and you cancel it, it will die even faster than point 1.

    So, either pets get way more durable (still killable, but not as easy as it is now) or the health penalty should certainly be reverted to make Soul Link an interesting option in PvP, right now it can't compete with Dark Bargain (imo).

  17. #537
    lol i must be so bad at pvp, just tried affliction and got pwned by every other class in game on almost 15 random bgs, got 2 kbs and middle of pack damage on all.
    as destro i was always top in damage and kbs.

    is aff a bad spec for bgs or is destro a really good spec for solo pvp? or i'm bad with affliction?

  18. #538
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zharradan View Post
    lol i must be so bad at pvp, just tried affliction and got pwned by every other class in game on almost 15 random bgs, got 2 kbs and middle of pack damage on all.
    as destro i was always top in damage and kbs.

    is aff a bad spec for bgs or is destro a really good spec for solo pvp? or i'm bad with affliction?
    If you don't have a pocket healer, there is no point running as affliction. If you do, then it, like all other classes, can put out a shedload.

    Unfortunately playing without a healer as affliction is futile/suicide seeing as how little drainlife heals for and the dependence on channeling MG to actually do any noteworthy damage to your target.

  19. #539
    And forget playing Destro in MoP as well, the Chaos bolt nearly one shotting people will be gone by then.

    The recent GC post (or tweet?) on raid buffs is just stupid, my group for DS had 2 Warlocks, 2 Mages, add 3 healers (one offspec to dps), 2 tanks, and we have space for one dps, if you take anything than ANOTHER caster (this time hybrid) to stack things even more, you are setting your group way, way behind. We did fine because one of healers was Shaman, but now that's gone, in Mist we won't be able to fill a single melee.

    But that's beside the point of thread. On topic, I would really like to know how much 'itemisation' points in Damage Reduction our Demonic Gateway cost, if only just to laugh how more we lost for something that you won't be able to setup. I just can't wait for leveling to 90, the new 'bring back the wpvp' coupled with old 'we don't balance around 1v1, ever' will surely bring lots of fun being ganked to ground over and over on a class that is useless without a healer (and I though Cata was bad in this design...).

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Where do you get 25% DR?

    Soul Link was NOT true DR. It was damage transference, which could be eliminated by killing the pet.
    Yes but you had the tools to compensate: master Summoner, Demonic Rebirth, Soulshards, Fel Synergy.
    Now it's extremely penalizing for Destruction to rez a pet (Demonology and Affliction seem fine). 1 minute cooldown + 1 whole ember which takes more time to generate than a Soul Shard + limitation to only rez your pet instead of swapping it makes FoX lackluster. Not to mention that pets can die in a matter of seconds.
    I don't think that +max health and +healing taken will ever be better than flat DR, why?:
    -First of all in a PvP environment, there are many situations where you will not take any healing. That's while taking into consideration fears, Stuns, Silences, Polys, Clones, and Smoke Bombs.
    -Second of all, many classes have absorb effects that if I'm not mistaken ignore +healing effects. So, unless PW:S and other protective abilities scale with "healing taken", DR is still superior.
    -Finally, additional healing is no where close to DR in a burst scenario, where your health will drop faster than your healer is capable of handling. It also causes frustration because of your HP pool that keeps on bouncing back and forth.

    So, we can conclude that in the scenarios where you are most likely to get killed, healing bonus falls back way behind DR. +30% Demon Armor healing was really nice, 10%, not so much. But even then, Soul Link was the equivalent of Ice Block, Dispersion, and whatnot. +X% healing and health was to compensate for the PW;S, Ice Barrier, Mana Shield and off healing that other casters had.


    As for the change to UR, thanks for that. However, by doing so you're making even more into an offensive ability, simply because in a scenario where you are with a healer, you will almost never find yourself being silenced instead of your healer. It would be really stupid of your opponent to do so.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 12:06 PM ----------

    Also, the new Soul Link seemed very interesting at first, but it got nerfed to the point at which it became useless. It provided the sort of management that we had with Armors.
    Nobody's going to take SL or Sacrificial pact over Dark Bargain, which isn't even one of the best defensive abilities in the game. Now you're going to tell me "But Dark Bargain allows you to attack freely while being protected". But it's not worth it. You will almost never find yourself in a situation in which you're going to want to keep on damaging your opponent correctly while being trained. And if that's happening, then the opposing team would be bursting when they are in a pickle, so we can't take into account fighting against bad players.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 12:08 PM ----------

    I also wanted to point out that what led to Destruction not being viable in Cataclysm was its lacking damage and burst. The spec's mechanics were perfect for PvP. However, it's the opposite for MoP. The base needed to perform properly is missing, leading to the spec being crippled.

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