Last edited by Lucidious; 2012-09-20 at 10:28 PM.
now as destro you have no instant summon , you can use the ( bugged ) FoX to summon your previous pet, and as affli if you use a shard it has a 1 min cd, not to mention we're really tight on shards now, it's like asking me to throw away my savings every time i have to use a shard for anything but haunt.
so pet twisting is not as viable as before, also there are a trillion different possibilities in which they could change locks, why consider felguard ?
also you wouldn't be able to use GoSac if this felguard idea is the fix, you don't get stun with sac so , too many downsides for that tbh.
the other things about adding an extra stun and such are pretty attractive though, especially the shield tbh.
CC- First off i'd like to say that demo spec is fine for cc and has more options than the other 2 specs "AND survivability but i'll discuss that later" so i'll kind of leave that spec alone. Affliction imho can be played to high end just fine with spammable fear and 1 other CC "Howl since forever but shadowfury is currently ftw" because of DOT pressure. Affliction's strength since the days of sl/sl has been soul link"for tankability",dot pressure,self healing, and fear. So I think it's safe to say that affliction's viability has more to do with it's survivability and spread pressure "which might be an issue but we will have to wait and see" then it's actual CC since all it's losing was baseline coil. Now destro on the other hand is a WHOLE different ball game. That spec relies on a bazooka "2+ seconds even reforging haste and having backdraft" for all it's crazy burst and that's fine. But what it NEEDS is an extra cc to get that cast off. It seems the original design was to allow a lock to place his rain of fire and stand in it to allow him time to get casts off but after the nerf to aftermath that isn't a viable strategy. Xelnath himself said that it is both to "frequent" and "weak". So the only way I can see putting a happy and fair ending on the CC portion of this thread would be removing the current aftermath and adding something along the lines of.
AFTERMATH- The caster summons a meteor that lands on the target causing xxx damage and stunning them for 3 seconds. 45 second cd.
That would give destro the space it needs to be able to get it's main priority attack off and having a slight "delay" for the meteor animation would be fine to as we could set ourselves up for a cast. Really imho that's the only "extra" CC ability that any lock spec needs. Now the survivability portion of this thread is a whole different story and here is my thoughts on that.
Survivability- Again Demo spec has got it on this one. DA glyph gives the spec passive DR AND a damage shield "which is HUGE" so "tanking" players while in DA form is not a problem nor is it while in meta form. Now caster form is another story but thats the tradeoff of the spec and has been since the introduction of meta. But what could help Demo caster form as well as affliction AND destruction is twilight ward...yes twilight ward. If you look at the other 2 clothie caster dps types "mage,spriest" you'll notice both of them have TOTAL absorbtion shields "Ice Barrier and PW:Shield". These abilities absorb ALL damage types and thats the problem. Since we lost soul link we have become VERY susceptible to spike damage while our cd's are down "Just count the complaints in this thread alone to give you an idea". So to complete our "tradeoff" of defensive abilities from a passive DR setup like old school soul link was to an "active" DR setup "which i'm all for btw" the only thing we "truly" would need would be to have twilight ward absorb ALL damage so we can "tank" a few hits.
In closing i'd like to give an example and challenge anyone reading this to a little experiment to see my point. First start off start by dueling a class that uses holy or shadow magic as it's main source of damage "let's say a shadow priest". And watch how your absorbs actually help you "tank" the spriests damage and the duel starts feeling more like a chess match and whether you win or lose more it's more rewarding. Next try dueling something like a boomkin or ele shammy since we don't have the pvp set bonus of absorbing all magic schools yet and watch how bursty they seem. Now granted it won't be that way at 90 "hell even mages will be more "tankable" at 90 with that set bonus" but just the fact that adding in that particular damage school into our small "compared to ice barrier" damage absorb makes a world of difference. Now for your final test duel a warrior or just pay attention the next time one attacks you in a bg "and they will". If you don't have your cd's up you are dead...period!!! Unless he is retarded he will effortlessly destroy you REGARDLESS of your skill level. So after numerous times pulling my hair out it dawned on me how to stop it. I play both mage and spriest and bind my shield to the same key as I do my twilight ward. The difference is on those toons I can survive SOOO much better just by having a shield "And yes I realize both classes ALSO have passive DR as well but thats not the problem". Everytime I get attacked it's one of my first reactions to hit my shield but with my lock half the time it doesn't even work against thier class so everytime i'm like "Oh shit" and try and rely on the CC and mobility that I DON'T have *Sighs*. So that is my conclusion from active testing, we need either a shield or else i'd hate to say it but...old school soul link mixed with more passive self healing. Anyone else feel free to expand on this, I am open to a new playstyle but without a shield "Or a stun for destro" I feel the current design as fun as it might be "And MOP destro is the best version of destro i have played yet tbh" it is still slightly lacking a few things from a *CC and Survivability* standpoint. But with the changes Xelnath has talked about with DB,UR, And the destro stun I feel we are on the right track. Now if we could get a shiny new twilight shield to go with those 3 proposed changes we would be set.
Last edited by Lucidious; 2012-09-21 at 09:19 AM.
Dude you are so biased to destro. You talked about that warrior coming at you? its not like its only destro that would need that "stun" at that moment. that stun is heavily needed for all specs at those moments.(perhaps not Demo which have Carrion swarm)
you think that becouse destro need a ~2s cast (yes it will be close to that with backdraft) I am 2.5s now in 389 gear without backdraft, Affliction do not? its bad without MG, and that is a 4s channeled spell.
and yes before affliction had "howl" and a coil while howl was less CD, coil was more, and look how that went outside of a pocket healer or a 3's. 80% of the time it was horrible.
Circle is a good spell, but again without a good placement or outside of arena, where you can get it out somewhere good, it is also a pain in the butt to use, you need to put down that portal as soon as you dismount, and if you havent done that you are screwed if a melee jumps you, put down a circle you try to move from that with 50-70% slow while getting beat on heavily, and if you actually manage to get away and teleport, POOF, charged, shadowstepped,gripped,judge slowed again.
I jumped on my priest which i had pvp'd with ONCE as shadow (alot as disc though) the first bg after benching my lock I was top KB top dmg.
OP or not ,easier played or not , I don't know. It just shows something that the lock didnt have.
Last edited by Solidhype; 2012-09-21 at 01:13 PM.
For 1 yes destro is my favorite spec, i've admitted that numerous times but that isn't affecting my thought process on CC and survivability at all.
Does affliction need the same extra CC as destro? Because last time I played affliction "which was yesterday" I could instant soulburn/soul swap my dots "with dark soul no less" on multiple targets and topped damage done in most of the bg's that I was in. Now yes I have seen multiple people say that afflicion's spread pressure is "weaker" than before but that is still afflictions pvp playstyle and it still works. Every warrior that attacked me I could dot fully and the only problem I have is the fact that i'm very "squishy" with no cd's up. So in affliction's case i'm sorry but no it doesn't need the extra cc it just needs a shield or some other form of DR so it can "tank" better and as long as dot spread damage is still decent at 90 and the spec doesn't turn to much into a single target spec "via MG" it will still be a top tier arena spec like it's always been.
Now as far as my bias destro opinions go, YES I feel that destro,affliction, and caster demo could all use just a "bit" of help with survivability and that's why I suggested that twilight ward just absorb all damage. That is a subtle change that we could be given with a pvp 4 set bonus but it would pretty much balance our survivability issues. And as far as the stun goes destro is reliant on a LONG cast time "You forget that you are in 85 end tier gear with higher haste levels" to do it's damage and without that damage the spec has no legs to stand on "unlike affliction again". The rain of fire stun "aftermath" was just a poor ability for the spec and needs to be replaced as it was still part of destro's "budget" so it won't be a problem in the long run. I see lock pvp in mists as follow's...
Affliction- Again as i've said before if dot damage stays good and the spec does not have to constantly spam MG it will be fine and a glad worthy arena spec...period.
Demonology- Possible flag carrier for RBG'S or part of some sort of survival comp as a "tanky" fear bot. Setting up kills by using it's control then helping to "burst" people down. I see it as being viable depending on how well we can survive in caster form and I also feel it that there needs to be less "penalty" for stance dancing.
Destruction- As it stands right now it will only work in a coordinated burst setup. Triple dps 3's where it could just have it's partners cc while it helps to blow people up while tanking hits with it's cd's up. But once those cd's are blown if the target is not dead you will be. Where I would like to see it is where it can play in a comp lock MLS or MLD and be viable. Changing DB and UR as well as giving it a stun and possible a better shield and this would be possible and the spec would be viable for the first time since wrath.
So again i'm sorry but I just don't see affliction's problem being cc. I feel if it had a shield to tank with "plus the DB and UR changes" and it's dots still pressured oppossing teams it will actually be stronger now because it's easier than ever to apply those dots for 1, and for 2 MG makes going for swaps and kills a hell of alot easier. So again the only thing we have to watch for is dot damage and maybe some survivability.
Last edited by Lucidious; 2012-09-21 at 06:26 PM.
Really, if you're going to go to a forum and
a) Claim in a thread that you yourself started that everything is now balanced and people shouldn't ask for uncompensated buffs because that will unbalance things and
b) That every class is balanced according to a budget and the budgets are equal.
Then really, unless you are absurdly claiming that having abilities usable while stunned does not influence "budgeting", you're basically just talking nonsense and everyone here is wasting their valuable feedback talking to you.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's how you're coming across right now.
I actually think he is doing a great job. When we have shown him things that are a problem and made valid arguements he has listened to us. Just look at the fel armor and soul leech hot fixes and the fact that he has said he was going to implement the DB,UR, and destro stun changes "His idea" next patch "Hey Xel any chance of making our pvp set bonus absorb ALL damage and not just magic to fix our survivability problems? ". Now I realize that his team not realizing things like that dispersion and thunderstorm could be used while CC'd scares some people "I actually just lol'd" but the fact that the guy takes his own personal time to come here and talk to his customer base show's that he really wants to do a good job. That kind of pride in his work is more then i've seen any of his peers do on any other class threads on this site so cut the guy some slack please. Just look at some of the threads he has started lately and how he is looking for feedback on quests and such " Hey Xel I would also like to see some more warlock history and lore possibly with some cinematics if possible for our future class specific questlines ". So before you come in here bashing the guy i'd like you to remember an old saying . Don't bite the hand that feeds you!!!
Meh, putting words in your mouth, but it sure feels like it...
I'm not usually so cynical (Yeah, my post history probably dictates otherwise)... But even though I prefer the style of warlocks post cataclysm, the survivability and control is horrendous.
Last edited by qu1rex; 2012-09-21 at 07:16 PM.
If I offered you two jobs: one gets you 97 cents and one gets you 3 cents. Which one would you focus on doing right first?
PvPers don't like it, but in the pragmatic land of production, PvP has to be a secondary consideration. Furthermore, PvP is insanely hard to test. I personally reached out to about 10 high level arena PvP Warlocks for their feedback on the Warlock in MoP.
I recieved emails from 3. Those emails consisted of:
"Oh, you know, I didn't try out MoP beta, I figure I'll just play it when it comes out in 5.0.4"
"I don't like instant fear and think burning rush is too good. You should consider redesigning it."
"If you give me beta access, I'll send you feedback."
I gave the one guy beta access and never heard back. I started on a blood fear redesign, then heard from destro locks on the forum that they're worthless without it, etc.
By comparison, the 10 high level PvE raiders I reached out to - all 10 replied within 24 hours, with a thorough discussion of their abilities, dreams of what each spec would do that was unique and they constantly gave detailed, balanced feedback.
Now, I know your first reaction is "well, i'm a pvper and i got gladiator 23 times, so you should listen to me" - but this dramatic difference in feedback is just one example of how under represented PvP feedback is. Furthermore, PvP feedback is far more toxic and biased than PvE feedback. When a monster beats you in PvE, its bad ability use, monster design, whatever. In PvP, you were personally harmed and thus clearly it must be an OP/UP thing.
The best case in PvP is you're losing around half the time of players of equal skill. The reality is that you're happiest when you're winning consistently, but just barely and it was exciting for you.
The simple truth is that PvP design is hard and watching recordings of real PvP is more effective than any forum post ever will be.
Now, I'm not saying that your presence here hasn't been fruitful to both sides, and I'm sure the effort you're making is widely appreciated (included by myself). That doesn't mean that you can use specious arguments to deflect valid criticism of design and balance.
More importantly, you guys should know that the hard work on this thread is helping in ways I can't talk about.
As an example, using the cross-class comparisons provided by players here, the tides of balance are generally shifting against mages to a very severe degree.
Last edited by Xelnath; 2012-09-21 at 07:33 PM.
What I fail completely to even remotely comprehend is how warlocks were so drastically changed from one system (regarding pvp) where we were inherently strong without the need for cooldowns as our mobility was worse than that of our caster counterparts, making us fill the role of the "Tank caster"... Into what we are now, which is the least mobile caster, with the highest dependence on staying stationary along with giving us an active cooldown model which lasts for such a short period that we're the most fragile class outside of those short windows.
Of course you can call it bias that I claim the above things "Most fragile" "Least mobile" "Most dependent on being stationary" but you should know that this IS true...
Our so-called cooldowns are also pretty pointless in that you can't use them when you need them and our talented cooldowns are the only ones ingame with a drawback that can actually have a negative impact on using them...
Heck we're the only class ingame with such negative impacts on our spells.
But to just 'give up' because a few people who you contacted didn't give a response when the problems are glaringly obvious is beyond me... Sure you need feedback to test things, but if it's and "in your face issue" I don't think you need any feedback...
A summary of the changes you made from Cata to MoP was to remove all passive self healing, remove all passive defence, reduce mobility and reduce CC for warlocks... But (lets talk by comparison here, as that's what PVP is about) the developers for other classes have done pretty much the opposite.
I respect that you stick to your choices, you try to keep the warlock flavour... But when that flavour is a hinderance to allowing balance, I don't think I like the taste of it.
What was so broken about cataclysm warlock survivability? Really? Affliction in particular was a low damage, hard to kill target, who wasn't so prone to interrupts... Demonology never worked as in cataclysm it's model was almost identical to that of destruction's MoP model, where it relied entirely on long cast-time spells no matter how hard they hit. Destruction was great in cataclysm, but simply missed immolate dispel deterrent, it had the CC to allow it to cast spells and a nice combination of it's CCs could keep the melee off you, if even for just a few seconds (Shadowfury > Shadowflame > Howl of Terror).
Really Xelnath, just look at the toolkit prior MoP and now... I dislike the use of the word, but Destruction's toolkit in particular has been completely gutted.
// I'm not naive to believe that you've just "given up" as I stated in one of the above paragraphs, it's just annoying as heck that the expansion will be launched without this having been looked at beforehand.
The PVP scene in WoW isn't as large as the PVE scene, neglecting it will only keep it that way.
Last edited by qu1rex; 2012-09-21 at 07:40 PM.
I mean, look at my situation. My guild has a rated BG team as something fun to do once a week. Only half the group plays arena regularly. We've tended to hover around 1500 rating, with a spike just over 1600 when we had a couple good weeks strung together. And we are the highest rated BG team on the server. There are a handful of people with higher BG ratings, but they're scattered and obviously playing in cross-realm groups. So because we're on a PvE server that isn't one of the big names, there's just no one putting out more than our semi-casual effort.
That's what rated PvP looks like if you're not on a server with the reputation to attract competitive PvPers. And the game has to be at least roughly balanced for me, and for the folks who never do anything more than random pug battlegrounds, and for those very elite few doing 2200+. I can't imagine it's an easy task, especially when the play experience is so varied and subjective. That's why I've kept tagging my input with disclaimers about how my bad experiences were in pug battlegrounds and that I was trying my best to not issue blanket assessments.
Fair enough, then, Xelnath. Perhaps I did misunderstand you.
Let me tell you where I'm coming from and why I'm reading a thread about PvP in the first place. Almost all of my PvP experience dates from pre-Cataclysm. The reason for this is fairly simple. I tried PvP in Cata and hated it. Now, this could be because I don't enjoy the affliction playstyle nor arena, and that locks were generally horrible in random BGs for most of the expansion. Perhaps not. I'm sure someone here will disagree. What I do know is that I read a large number of threads in various forums pre-cata warning of various problems with lock mechanics in PvP. Nothing was done to fix it, and the result was an entire expansion in which the only way to enjoy pvp for locks was to play affliction in arenas, acting as multi-dot pressure and dispel protection with a siamese-twin resto shaman bonded to your hip.
That wasn't a playstyle I could enjoy, so I simply dropped PvP entirely for the expansion.
I want to go back to enjoying PvP in MoP. Not as a serious activity, I raid for that, but as something I can do enjoyably in a casual environment. Yet I'm now reading the SAME kinds of threads about lock PvP in MoP that I read pre-Cata. The problems are not the same, but the sense of deja-vu is palpable.
What I want is some degree of confidence that I will be able to go back to doing something I used to enjoy. I'm not getting it here.
Frankly, I lack confidence that even PvE will be properly balanced vis-a-vis different warlock specs. I don't have any confidence that you'll adjust fast enough when the situation demands it. Cataclysm certainly didn't give me any reason to think differently. But that's a discussion for a seperate thread, I guess.
I'm glad we're being of help to you. I hope to see the effects in a material fashion sooner rather than later.