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  1. #1
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    [MoP] 5.4 to WoD Ret Paladin guide!

    WoD Posts and info will be coming in the next few days! Keep in mind this is an ALPHA which means all info is tentative and subject to change



    NEW ABILITIES

    • Boundless Conviction: is a new passive ability granted to all Paladins. It increases Holy Power capacity to 5 (from 3). Abilities that cost Holy Power can still only consume a maximum of 3 Holy Power. This will allow us to pool Holy Power and will alter gameplay.
    • Judgments of the Bold Your Judgment hits grant one charge of Holy Power and cause the Physical Vulnerability effect.
    • Physical Vulnerability Weakens the constitution of an enemy target, increasing their physical damage taken by 4% for 30 sec.
    • Emancipate Unshackles your spirit, freeing you from one movement impairing effect. Instant Cast.
    • Heart of the Crusader: Since Crusader Aura was removed we received a 20% passive mounted speed bonus. RIP the days of "Turn off Crusader you dumb $*#@!"
    • Hammer of the Righteous: is an AoE attack that generates a charge of Holy Power.
    • Sword of Light Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 30%. Your spell power is now equal to 50% of your attack power, and you no longer benefit from other sources of spell power. Grants 6% of your maximum mana every 2 sec. Increases the healing done by Word of Glory and Flash of Light by 100%.
    • Devotion Aura: is a defensive raid cooldown. It is a combination of the old Divine Guardian (which was previously only available to Protection Paladins and has been removed from the game) and (which was previously only available to Holy Paladins and has been removed from the game) abilities. The 20% magic damage reduction will probably be its most useful feature.
    • Supplication For 8 sec after you kill an enemy that yields experience or honor, your next Flash of Light will be a critical.


    CHANGES TO EXISTING MECHANICS


    • Templar's Verdict Now requires 3 HP to be used, as opposed to damage modifiers at 1hp, 2hp and 3hp.
    • Divine Storm Now requires 3 HP to be used, instead of granting a charge of HP if hitting 2+ targets.
    • Blessing of Kings Blessing of Kings lost it's 5% stamina component and 5% resistance component
    • Blessing of Might Blessing of Might no longer grants Mana Regen and 20% Melee AP and 10% Ranged AP. It instead now grants 3,000 Mastery.
    • Exorcism is now instant cast, but has a 15 second cooldown.
    • Hammer of Wrath Now generates Holy Power when used.
    • The Art of War now grants your autoattacks a chance to reset the cooldown on your Exorcism (it used to have a chance of making it instant cast).
    • Sanctity of Battle now causes haste to reduce the global cooldown and the cooldown of Judgment, Crusader Strike, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath, and Hammer of the Righteous as well as Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm.
    • Judgment and Exorcism now generate 1 charge of Holy Power when used.
    • Divine Storm no longer generates Holy Power, and instead costs 3 Holy Power to use. More powerful than Templar's Verdict when used on 2 or more targets.
    • Inquisition now lasts 20 seconds per charge of Holy Power consumed (up to 3), as well as increases Critical Strike by 10% per Holy Power consumed (up to 3). In addition increases damage by 30%.
    • Seal of Justice is 16% weapon damage with 8 seconds of 50% a slow (magic).
    • Hammer of the Righteousprocs Seal of Justice and Seal of Insight on all targets hit. Best on 3+ targets.
    • GoAK now scales with stats! This means that our great friend is doing more damage! Guardian of the Ancient Kings (Retribution version) now has a reduced cooldown of 3 minutes, down from 5 minutes, and the maximum number of stacks has been reduced to 12. This is a BUFF!

    REMOVED ABILITIES


    • Auras have been removed.
    • Zealotry has been removed.
    • Consecration has been removed. (Prot Paladins Only)
    • Holy Wrath has been removed. (Prot Paladins Only)


    Seals


    With Auras done away with, you'll notice that the aura bar has been replaced with a Seal bar. At 85 you'll find on it;

    • Seal of Truth- After Level 24, this will be your main DPS seal. It will produce the most damage out of any seal. Censure's damage will be extremely hard to beat!
    • Seal of Righteousness- Seal of Righteousness is supposed to be our AoE seal. However, due to how good Censure's damage is you'll only want to use this in situations where there are 4+ targets.
    • Seal of Justice- Our PvP seal. Helps close the gap between you and your target. If you GLYPH into Glyph of Burden of Guilt you DO NOT need this seal. You'll be able to use Seal of Truth instead.
    • Seal of Insight- Caster seal of choice. Though, at times, it can help you survive in PvP if you're really grinding it. Be smart though and use your head.
      Below level 24
    • Seal of Command- The under 24 DPS seal of choice.

    Seal of Truth will replace Seal of Command at Level 24



    ROTATION AND SPELL USAGE


    Unlike Cataclysm, we have much better Holy Power generation in MoP.
    Our abilities which generate Holy powers are as follows.

    • Crusader Strike One of our single Target DPS HP generating attacks. This is our main Melee attack.
    • Judgment Another one of our single target DPS HP generating attack. While it can be used at range, it counts as a Melee attack.
    • Exorcism Our single target ranged DPS HP generating attack. When glyphed however it can become a melee ranged AoE attack dealing 25% of it's damage to nearby targets.
    • Hammer of Wrath Our single Target ranged execute which generates HP. Only useable below 20%, or during Avenging Wrath.
    • Hammer of the Righteous Our melee range AoE DPS HP generator. This is a DPS boost over CS when hitting 3+ targets.


    Now We also have a change to spells which consume Holy Power as well.


    • Templar's Verdict- Our single target DPS HP finisher attack.
    • Divine Storm Our AoE DPS HP finisher. This is a DPS upgrade over TV at 2+ targets.
    • Word of Glory Our healing HP finisher.
    • Word of Glory (Glyph of Harsh Words) When glyphed this is our ranged single target DPS TV alternative HP Finisher.


    This is the basic rundown of what spells will be creating Holy Power, and which ones will be consuming.

    Now that you have the idea of what spells there are, now we go onto how to use them. The Retribution Paladin rotation in quick overview will be Inq > ES > 5HP TV > HoW > CS > Judge > Exo > 3-4HP TV >SS . See below for a breakdown.

    • Keep up Inquisition ideally with 3 Holy Power, keep buff rolling as close to 100% uptime as possible, as close to the buff wearing out as possible. Side note; If you refresh Inquisition below 2 seconds, it rolls. i.e.: Casting a 3HP Inquisition with 1.5 seconds left would make it last 31.5 seconds long.
    • Cast Execution Sentence. This is our T6 talent of choice in most scenarios. Keep this aligned with your AW CD and Pop it after you have stacks from GoAK.
    • Cast Templar's Verdict at fully charged Holy Power and while capped at 5 Holy Power. This stands while under the influence of Holy Avenger, or Divine Purpose (if NOT tracking the buff). Interchange with Divine Storm with two or more targets. You'll want to cap out your HP and not use TV with JUST 3 Holy Power when avoidable. *******
    • Cast Execution Sentence on Cool down! Match with CD's and trinkets when you can!
    • Cast Hammer of Wrath on cooldown (generates holy power, only available on targets below 20% health).
    • Cast Crusader Strike on cooldown (generates Holy Power). Interchange with Hammer of the Righteous (generates Holy Power) for AoE situations.
    • Cast Judgment (generates Holy Power).
    • Cast Exorcism on cooldown (generates Holy Power).
    • Templar's Verdict Fully charged, but below 5 HP, or Divine Storm fully charged but below 5 HP, this applies for Divine Purpose (if tracking the buff) *******

      ******* For Clarification you want to delay the use of Templar's Verdict when you have HP generators available for use AND/OR have room to accept Holy Power charges (>5HP).

      What this means is that if you're below 5 Holy Power, and your HP generators are off CD, you want to use them to cap off your Holy Power. Once you have 5 Holy Power or, if you have a free GCD where all your Holy Power Generators are on cool down, you can use TV then.

      IF you have T16 Your rotation will look something like this

      Inq > ES > [5HP T16 Free DS] > 5HP TV > HoW > [T16 Free DS] > CS > Judge > Exo > 3-4HP TV > SS

      What this does NOT mean is that you stand around waiting for your HP Generators to come off CD if you have 3/4 HP. See FAQ for why.

    In multiple target situations, the chief (and possibly only) differences are

    Inq > 5HP DS > LH > HoW (> T16 Free DS) > HotR > Judge > Exo > 3-4HP DS (> SS)

    You'll have to pick and choose which spells are appropriate for interchanging, however you can switch to DS at as early as 2 targets. Seal of Righteousness however will not be prioritized for AoE except in larger packs of 6+ mobs.

    For PVP

    Apply essentially all of the same above. However, when doing so, (as always) be sure to use discretion and make sure to do so with situational awareness.


    TALENTS












    Tier 1 talents offer a choice between 3 means of increasing your movement speed:

    • Speed of Light, an activated movement speed boost that lasts for 8 seconds, 70% speed increase;
    • Long Arm of the Law, a movement speed buff which is activated every time you use Judgment on your target, 45% speed increase for 3 sec.
    • Pursuit of Justice, 15% passive movement speed at all times, with additional 5% movement speeds for each charge of Holy Power you have (with a max of 3), capping out at 30% movement speed.

      Your choice will boil down to each encounters mechanics and requirements, and how they will fit in with your play style. Clearly each one of these has their ups and downs, however Pursuit of Justice on a Boss per Boss basis should offer the most consistent movement speed bonus.



    Tier 2 talents offer a choice between 3 utility spells:

    • Fist of Justice, a 6 second stun on a 30 second cooldown. This improves upon and replaces Hammer of Justice an ability granted to you by default. The new spell has a shorter cooldown and longer range at which it can be used.
    • Repentance, a 1 minute duration crowd-control, that is broken by damage. Unlike the Cataclysm and WotLK version of this spell, it no longer has a 60 second CD, but a 15 second CD, but as a trade off has a 1.5 second cast time.
    • Evil is a Point of View Your Turn Evil now also affects Humanoids and Beasts. This means we now, if talented, effectively have a fear that can work on players and pets! This is situation but useful! Don't quite write it off entirely! Burden of Guilt as a talent has been removed but HAS been replaced with a glyph too! Glyph of Burden of Guilt

    Which of these spells you take will be largely dependent on fight mechanics, group comp/size and your point in content. While most people will probably end up with Fist of Justice, Repentancecan end up being appealing for PvE as well, while [B]Evil is a Point of View/B] is aimed at PvP, there is no reason to write it off!

    Tier 3 talents offer a choice between 3 healing spells:

    • Selfless Healer Each time you use Judgment you reduce the cast time and mana cost of there flash of light by 35% per stack. This stacks up to 3 times for a total effectiveness of 100%. In addition to the reducing the cast time and mana cost, when it is used to heal others it's effectiveness is increased by 35% per Judgment (stacks up to 3 times).
    • Eternal Flame This spell replaces Word of Glory as a HP consuming heal but adds in a HoT mechanic. It consumes up to 3 HP healing the target directly and then for an additional amount over 30 seconds. You can manage to keep this up 100%, however maintaining this would be a DPS loss over the other two Spells.
    • Sacred Shield A single target shield which absorbs a certain amount of damage every 6 seconds for 30 seconds. The absorbed amount can and will be substantial over the period of a fight, and can be used on yourself or anyone in the raid! With a 6 second CD it's easy to toss around, and has a no mana cost.

      You will want to try and stay away from Eternal Flame, as it's a DPS loss compared to the other two options. Once again basing your choices off the demands and needs of the fight and it's mechanics, you're most likely to find yourself using Sacred Shield rather as your talent of choice unless you have good reason to otherwise.


    Tier 4 talents offer a choice between 3 talents that grant you some utility:

    • Hand of Purity is an actived ability with a 30 second cooldown that reduces the damage the target takes from DoTs by 70% for 6 seconds. This can cast on not only yourself, but any friendly target which can make it appealing to help with boss mechanics, and increase survivability.
    • Unbreakable Spirit is a passive talent that reduces the remaining cooldown of Divine Shield, Divine Protection, and Lay on Hands by 1% for each charge of Holy Power you use, up to a maximum of 50% of the cooldown's duration. The ability seems most useful in reducing the cooldown of Lay on Hands, reducing the cooldown drastically allowing you to help help save lives more often.
    • Clemency is a passive talent that will give your Hand of Freedom, Hand of Protection, Hand of Sacrifice and Hand of Salvation two charges before their CDs are set off. Seemingly the hand which would receive the most benefit out of this would be Hand of Sacrifice.


      This tier will depend more strongly than before on the demands of your raid and the fight(s) at hand. If the fight has no DoT's than Hand of Purity is hardly useful, and if there is great need for to mitigate damage from the tank to yourself having Hand of Sacrifice useable more often can be a godsend. Let the point float and choose which you feel is best and most fitting and beneficial to your play style and to the fight mechanics.

    Tier 5 talents offer a choice between 3 spells that improve your DPS:

    • Holy Avenger- While under the effect of HA your HP generators now generate 3HP instead of 1 for 15 seconds. This is a two minute CD and it's similar to the old Zealotry. This will alter your rotation for the time being as seen above.
    • Sanctified Wrath Increases the duration of your Avenging Wrath by 50%, and while active it reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Wrath by 50%.
    • Divine Purpose Every time you use an ability that consumes Holy Power (finishers), you have a 25% chance to gain the Divine Purpose buff. The Divine Purpose buff makes your next ability which costs Holy Power to cost no Holy Power and act as if 3 were consumed.

    These are all DPS increases. I won't say which one is better than the other just yet. Once you have the T16 4 Piece Bonus You'll definitely want to keep your eye towards Divine Purpose! For now, take the time to play around with them and find their sweet spots and how you feel with them, and how they fit into each boss fight.

    SW and HA will be more bursty, while DP will offer more steady and sustained DPS. Keep that in mind for your choice.

    Keep in mind that as you choose your talents your rotation may vary! See Post 2 for more info!

    Tier 6 talents offer a choice between 3 hybrid DPS-healing spells:

    • Holy Prism when cast on an ally, heals them and deals damage to all nearby enemies. When placed on an enemy, it deals damage to that enemy and heals all nearby allies. As a Retribution Paladin, you will most likely use this on yourself or another ally, so that the spell damages nearby adds.
    • Light's Hammer places a hammer at a targeted ground location. The hammer deals damage to nearby enemies and heals nearby allies.
    • Execution Sentence is a single target DPS spell that deals damage to the target in an escalating manner (slowly then ramping up to a burst).

    Your choice of which will be based on whether you wish to damage a single target (Execution Sentence) or multiple enemies (Light's Hammer or Holy Prism), and if you're doing PvE or PvP. In the case of multiple enemies, it will also depend on how these adds are placed, your placement in comparison to the adds, how they are tanked and your movement around them as well as their time spent in the damage.


    Blessings


    • Blessing of Kings Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing Strength, Agility, and Intellect by 5%.
    • Blessing of Might Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing mastery by 3,000.

    GLYPHS

    There are several Major Glyphs that can, in certain situations, be useful (Minor Glyphs are purely cosmetic):

    Glyph of Inquisition
    Reduces the damage bonus of Inquisition by 15%, but increases the duration by 100%. This is obviously a DPS loss, but it will make the rotation easier to maintain for those who are less experienced with the spec.
    Glyph of Harsh Words
    Allows your Word of Glory to be used as a damaging spell against enemies. Currently, this seems to do a decent amount of damage, making it a viable alternative to Templar's Verdict when you are out of melee range.
    Glyph of Mass Exorcism
    Causes your Exorcism to deal 25% of its damage to nearby enemies. As a drawback, Exorcism is reduced to melee range. This glyph could prove to be a DPS increase in very specific situations (where you are in melee range for the whole fight and there are adds next to the boss).
    Glyph of Templar's Verdict
    Has a small damage reduction effect. For 6 seconds after using Templar's Verdict, you take 10% reduced damage. This will probably be mandatory for raiders.
    Glyph of Double Jeopardy Judging a target increases the damage of your next Judgment by 20%, but only if used on a different second target. This can potentially be a good glyph on fights where you'll have a second mob(s) present at all times to hit.


    So, what does it look like we'll end up running with?


    But we have only three slots! Well, yeah, but we'll want to switch out Glyph of Mass Exorcism on fights where we can't AoE all over the place, and Harsh words in when the added ranged ability will help!

    Stat Priority
    THESE ARE TENTATIVE AND TO THE BEST KNOWLEDGE CHECK BACK FOR LATEST
    • 5.1 - Hit = Expertise > Haste> Crit=Mastery
    • Hit Rating90- 2,550 Hit Rating to get cap and 2,210 to get cap with racials when applicable!
    • Expertise Rating 90- 2,550 Expertise Rating to get to cap. 2,210 Expertise Rating to get to cap with racials once again when applicable.


    Professions

    Right now the best combo you can go with is;
    Blacksmithing and Engineering

    Blacksmithing is always a great and safe bet! And lining up Synapse springs with Execution Sentence is just awesome!



    Gems!
    Understand that the usage of gems will be dependent.



    Profession Guide- Work in Progress!

    • Blacksmithing: 2 Extra Gem Sockets. 1 in Bracers, one in Hand slot. Totaling 320 Str, or 640 secondary stats and/or 160 Primary 320 Secondary stat depending on your gem choice.
    • Herbalism: Lifeblood will give you 2880 Haste rating for 2 seconds every 2 minutes. This will average out to about 320 haste rating, losing value over shorter fights.
    • Enchanting: Offers two enchanter only ring enchants which increase your strength by 160 each. Totaling 320 total strength.
    • Engineering: You get Synapse Springs for your gloves which grant you 2940 of your highest primary stat (Which will be str) for 10 seconds. This can average out to 490 str depending on the length of the encounter
    • Inscription: Inscriptionist only shoulder enchant gets you 520 str and 100 on them! You'll have to get your shoulder enchants from Scribes now, so this will be a definite upgrade over the normal enchants we get!
    • Leatherworking: The Leatherworking bracer enchant gives you 500 str to any Bracer item! Not the only bracer enchant but a great one at that!
    • Jewlcrafting: Jewlcrafers get their own gems (2), giving you 640 Strength (320 str per gem) or 960 Haste or Mastery (480 per gem) This profession has seriously depreciated in value since Cata and earlier expansions.

    Enchants


    Consumables; More coming soon



    Abbreviations and Acronyms




    Feeling like you're not performing up to par? Check out [Ret] Fix my DPS! to help and see what steps you can take to better perform!



    Macros


    Addons


    Misc

    • Judgement in game in the instances of spells is now spelt as Judgment. It will be referred to in this guide as such and will require macros to be updated and use this spelling and this spelling only.



    This thread is meant to be a Retribution Compendium throughout Mists of Pandaira. It will be constantly updated and is a place for discussion, questions, suggestion, answers and everything in between. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to ask! If you'd like to see something in this post, please just ask! This is a product of many people's contributions, and help.


    Thank you Azshira for letting me use his awesome table!
    Last edited by Krekko; 2014-06-05 at 02:15 AM.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    | [MoP]Ret Paladin Guide | Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

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  2. #2
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Patch 5.4 Notes and changes!


    Originally Posted by Blizzard
    Paladin

    Paladin (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    General
    For Paladins, we have a few tweaks in store.

    We made several changes for Holy, to go along with other larger system changes to compensate for the removal of Guardian of Ancient Kings from Holy, and merged its benefits into Divine Favor. In order to follow through on our change to merge all types of Haste %, we removed the Spell Haste % from Seal of Insight to a Holy-only passive, so that it didn't also increase Protection's baseline Haste by 10%. Our changes to healer mana and mobility also indirectly increased the value of Selfless Healer by a large amount, so we brought it back down to be even in power with the other talents on its row. We also raised the range of Denounce to be consistent with other spells.

    Avenging Wrath now also increases all of the Paladin’s healing by 20% for its duration.
    Denounce's range has increased to 40 yards (up from 30 yards).
    Infusion of Light now also passively increases Haste by 10%.
    Seal of Insight no longer increases spell Haste by 10%.
    Selfless Healer for Holy no longer causes Judgment to grant Holy Power. It also is only usable on Flash of Light, no longer on Holy Light or Holy Radiance.

    For Protection, we tweaked Eternal Flame in order to reduce its massive self-healing amount, and provide better balance between talents on that row. We also added a new passive, Shining Protector, in order to give defensive value to the new Multistrike stat.

    Bastion of Glory no longer affects the periodic healing of Eternal Flame. It still affects the direct healing portion of the ability.
    Shining Protector is a new passive ability for Protection Paladins.
    Shining Protector: All heals you receive have a chance equal to your Multistrike chance to trigger Shining Protector, healing you for an additional 30% of the triggering heal.

    We made a few additional changes to Paladins. We revised the functionality of Hammer of the Righteous a bit, such that its performance is about the same, but its tooltip is much clearer. We also made Stay of Execution much more attractive to use as an emergency button. One big change for Retribution that isn't mentioned here is the removal of Inquisition (see Ability Pruning), which will have a notable effect on their rotation.

    Hammer of the Righteous now deals 50% Physical weapon damage (up from 15%) to the primary target, but the primary target is no longer hit with the Holy damage.
    Seals no longer cost any mana.
    Stay of Execution (the Holy version of Execution Sentence) now deals its healing in a large burst at first, and then decreasing over time (reversed from before).
    Last edited by Krekko; 2014-06-05 at 02:12 AM.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    | [MoP]Ret Paladin Guide | Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

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  3. #3
    gylph of double jeperdy? doesnt switching targets reset your swing timer. 20% more damage might not be worth it if u lose out on a white attack

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Balhale View Post
    Stat priority on Tuesday is also Haste > Mastery > Crit. Also the rotation is Inq > TV5/TVDP/TV3HA > HoW > Exo > CS > J > TV 3. You left off Glyph of Double Jeopardy as well. Hammer of Wrath also generates Holy Power.
    TVDP has the same priority as TV below 5 HP when there's a free GCD, since Divine Purpose only procs on finishers. No loss when using other DPS abilities.

    Two more things to add:
    -If you refresh Inquisition below 2 seconds, it rolls. i.e.: Casting a 3HP Inquisition with 1.5 seconds left would make it last 31.5 seconds long.
    -Emancipate has replaced Cleanse (via Acts of Sacrifice) for the purpose of snare/root removal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauren View Post
    gylph of double jeperdy? doesnt switching targets reset your swing timer. 20% more damage might not be worth it if u lose out on a white attack
    I don't even know if it would work like that. Mouseover/focus macro is easier anyway.
    Last edited by Reith; 2012-08-26 at 02:43 AM.

  5. #5
    I don't understand why you say we should only use TV on 5 Holy Power. Of course, if you know you will need to burst in a few seconds, you get 2 TVs in a short interval, but for say a 2 minute period of sustained damage, using TV at 3 or 5 holy power should be the same, or am I missing something?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Balhale View Post
    Stat priority on Tuesday is also Haste > Mastery > Crit. Also the rotation is Inq > TV5/TVDP/TV3HA > HoW > Exo > CS > J > TV 3. You left off Glyph of Double Jeopardy as well. Hammer of Wrath also generates Holy Power.
    exactly how it was for 4.0 wasn't it? lol weird how things just go full circle.

    Thanks for this thread I've been lazy as hell not following beta. <3

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauren View Post
    gylph of double jeperdy? doesnt switching targets reset your swing timer. 20% more damage might not be worth it if u lose out on a white attack
    I've never heard of target switching resetting you swing timer. If this ever existed it certainly doesn't now.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-26 at 03:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepharoth View Post
    I don't understand why you say we should only use TV on 5 Holy Power. Of course, if you know you will need to burst in a few seconds, you get 2 TVs in a short interval, but for say a 2 minute period of sustained damage, using TV at 3 or 5 holy power should be the same, or am I missing something?
    You're missing that TV has no cooldown, but fillers do. If you use a 3 HP TV you're not putting your fillers on cooldown so that they can come back sooner. In other words 3HP TV leads you to sit around and do nothing for a few globals sometimes, since that 3HP wasn't going anywhere, while your fillers need time to come off cooldown.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-26 at 03:33 AM ----------

    So currently Holy Avenger is the best for burst and sustained? Correct?

  8. #8
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    TVDP has the same priority as TV below 5 HP when there's a free GCD, since Divine Purpose only procs on finishers. No loss when using other DPS abilities.

    Two more things to add:
    -If you refresh Inquisition below 2 seconds, it rolls. i.e.: Casting a 3HP Inquisition with 1.5 seconds left would make it last 31.5 seconds long.
    -Emancipate has replaced Cleanse (via Acts of Sacrifice) for the purpose of snare/root removal.


    I don't even know if it would work like that. Mouseover/focus macro is easier anyway.
    Thanks! Added those two bits!

    Also, it doesn't reset swing timer, and yeah, you'd want to be using a Mouseover/focus macro anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepharoth View Post
    I don't understand why you say we should only use TV on 5 Holy Power. Of course, if you know you will need to burst in a few seconds, you get 2 TVs in a short interval, but for say a 2 minute period of sustained damage, using TV at 3 or 5 holy power should be the same, or am I missing something?
    Using TV with 3 HP will prevent you from making the most out of your HP Generators and Fillers. TV has no CD other spells do. You want to keep those rolling and off CD as much as possible using TV at 5 HP OR at max charge(3HP) but only with an available and open GCD where everything else is on GCD. Essentially, you don't want to be sitting around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauren View Post
    gylph of double jeperdy? doesnt switching targets reset your swing timer. 20% more damage might not be worth it if u lose out on a white attack
    No, it does not! So no worries there, BUT, you'll want to keep on your target for the most part, so use a Mouseover/Focus target macro like Reith suggested. Perhaps I'll add useful Macros later!


    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    I've never heard of target switching resetting you swing timer. If this ever existed it certainly doesn't now.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-26 at 03:31 AM ----------



    You're missing that TV has no cooldown, but fillers do. If you use a 3 HP TV you're not putting your fillers on cooldown so that they can come back sooner. In other words 3HP TV leads you to sit around and do nothing for a few globals sometimes, since that 3HP wasn't going anywhere, while your fillers need time to come off cooldown.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-26 at 03:33 AM ----------

    So currently Holy Avenger is the best for burst and sustained? Correct?
    Yes, exactly all of this.

    And yes, to the best of our knowledge Holy Avenger is the best choice for Ret, and it's also the coolest looking! (We get a temporary Ashbringer!)
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    | [MoP]Ret Paladin Guide | Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

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  9. #9
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Are you the author of the thread at icy-veins.com? This looks very similar to the one that's from there.

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Corylyn View Post
    Are you the author of the thread at icy-veins.com? This looks very similar to the one that's from there.
    considering at the bottom of the post it says "Credits: Icy Veins" one would assume yes.

  11. #11
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corylyn View Post
    Are you the author of the thread at icy-veins.com? This looks very similar to the one that's from there.
    No, I mean, it is the one from there? Credits and all? Nor is it the first time that it's been posted here. Just posted it again in order to properly maintain it and update it for Tuesday on as details get hammered out and questions/answers pop up.
    Last edited by Krekko; 2012-08-26 at 06:00 PM.
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  12. #12
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    No, I mean, it is the one from there? Credits and all? Nor is it the first time that it's been posted here. Just posted it again in order to properly maintain it and update it for Tuesday on as details get hammered out and questions/answers pop up.
    Mm, I don't know. A lot of these sites cross-post to disseminate their findings to the rest of us, so there are usually more than one floating around the various big-name sites. I didn't see the credits at the bottom though, my bad. Mainly just curious so I know who to PM for thanks and corrections.

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  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral Elovan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sepharoth View Post
    I don't understand why you say we should only use TV on 5 Holy Power. Of course, if you know you will need to burst in a few seconds, you get 2 TVs in a short interval, but for say a 2 minute period of sustained damage, using TV at 3 or 5 holy power should be the same, or am I missing something?
    As a couple people posted above, it's not so much that you only want to use TV at 5 Holy Power as it is that you don't want to delay using any of your holy power generators. If you have a free gcd and have 3 or 4 Holy Power then yes you should use TV, but if it's a choice between 3/4 HP TV and CS/Judge/Exo/HoW, you want to delay TV.

  14. #14
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elovan View Post
    As a couple people posted above, it's not so much that you only want to use TV at 5 Holy Power as it is that you don't want to delay using any of your holy power generators. If you have a free gcd and have 3 or 4 Holy Power then yes you should use TV, but if it's a choice between 3/4 HP TV and CS/Judge/Exo/HoW, you want to delay TV.
    Exactly this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Corylyn View Post
    Mm, I don't know. A lot of these sites cross-post to disseminate their findings to the rest of us, so there are usually more than one floating around the various big-name sites. I didn't see the credits at the bottom though, my bad. Mainly just curious so I know who to PM for thanks and corrections.
    Ah, haha, makes sense. No, not the original author sadly. I'm just trying to update/correct/keep up the information as best as possible for tuesday so people have a fairly easy read and understanding. With much thanks to the community for help pointing out out of date info.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    | [MoP]Ret Paladin Guide | Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by youlowgee View Post
    exactly how it was for 4.0 wasn't it? lol weird how things just go full circle.

    Thanks for this thread I've been lazy as hell not following beta. <3
    Actually, with 4.0, as I recall, mastery was at the bottom in a vain attempt to smooth out the sporadic nature of the original mastery.
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  16. #16
    Well since there isn't much haste on the gear to begin with, I'm going to be going haste > mastery > crit for the pre-patch because I'm not going to end up with more haste than mastery even without the buff.

  17. #17
    Dreadlord Ryuji's Avatar
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    Regarding the 3 HP TV vs. 5 HP TV, you say there's less time spent sitting around waiting for CDs with the 5 HP model. How would that be the case? Example:

    You have 5 HP and just used TV. Now you have 2 HP and none of your HP generators are off cooldown quite yet. You're sitting there, waiting to get a HP generator going again.

    Repeat the same process, save for having 3 HP, use TV, then 0 HP. You'd still sit there regardless of both situations, no? I'm not accounting for haste or DP procs(which those two would provide more oomph due to being able to use TV more often which is still the hardest hitting move we have, no?).

    I can see why you'd want to keep HP generators going so you can use TV more often, but I'm just not seeing how you'd see less instances of sitting there waiting for something when the situation would supposedly feel the exact same with the 3 HP model.

    In short, this is what I see when I read the 5 HP TV vs. 3 HP TV logic:

    "Use more HP generators(up to 5) to be able to use TV, the hardest hitting move you've got."

    "Wait, why delay the use of TV then if you want to use it as much as possible?"

    "Less time spent sitting there waiting to do something."

    You're bound to have instances where you're sitting there, waiting for something to do for the 5 HP TV model, right? I guess my question is, how much of a difference is it compared to the 3 HP TV model? To me it feels like it's practically identical, though I haven't run a whole lot of tests on it. How often do you find yourself waiting to do something with the 5 HP model vs. the 3 HP one?
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    Regarding the 3 HP TV vs. 5 HP TV, you say there's less time spent sitting around waiting for CDs with the 5 HP model. How would that be the case? Example:

    You have 5 HP and just used TV. Now you have 2 HP and none of your HP generators are off cooldown quite yet. You're sitting there, waiting to get a HP generator going again.
    Using Templar's Verdict at 3HP when you have HP generators available, delays them. You effectively lose a GCD. If you have Crusader Strike available with 3HP and you don't use it first, then you use it afterwards, it takes 4 GCDs to do the same thing you could've done with 3.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    Regarding the 3 HP TV vs. 5 HP TV, you say there's less time spent sitting around waiting for CDs with the 5 HP model. How would that be the case? Example:

    You have 5 HP and just used TV. Now you have 2 HP and none of your HP generators are off cooldown quite yet. You're sitting there, waiting to get a HP generator going again.

    Repeat the same process, save for having 3 HP, use TV, then 0 HP. You'd still sit there regardless of both situations, no? I'm not accounting for haste or DP procs(which those two would provide more oomph due to being able to use TV more often which is still the hardest hitting move we have, no?).

    I can see why you'd want to keep HP generators going so you can use TV more often, but I'm just not seeing how you'd see less instances of sitting there waiting for something when the situation would supposedly feel the exact same with the 3 HP model.

    In short, this is what I see when I read the 5 HP TV vs. 3 HP TV logic:

    "Use more HP generators(up to 5) to be able to use TV, the hardest hitting move you've got."

    "Wait, why delay the use of TV then if you want to use it as much as possible?"

    "Less time spent sitting there waiting to do something."

    You're bound to have instances where you're sitting there, waiting for something to do for the 5 HP TV model, right? I guess my question is, how much of a difference is it compared to the 3 HP TV model? To me it feels like it's practically identical, though I haven't run a whole lot of tests on it. How often do you find yourself waiting to do something with the 5 HP model vs. the 3 HP one?
    You're either thinking too hard, or not hard enough, either way you're not grasping something pretty obvious. Umm just visualize it I guess. Also you're forgetting Art of War procs, which could go to waste if you don't use exorcism as soon as possible. But, in general, when you prioritize HP generators they come back faster, when you prioritize TV at 3HP you gain nothing because the 3HP is sitting there and not going anywhere. You spend much more time sitting around and doing nothing when you use a 3HP TV that will be there waiting for you no matter what, as opposed to using a move that has a cooldown and will be back sooner if you use it sooner.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2012-08-27 at 07:19 PM.

  20. #20
    Dreadlord Ryuji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Using Templar's Verdict at 3HP when you have HP generators available, delays them. You effectively lose a GCD. If you have Crusader Strike available with 3HP and you don't use it first, then you use it afterwards, it takes 4 GCDs to do the same thing you could've done with 3.
    Wouldn't that also apply for a 5 HP TV? If you have a Crusader Strike available with 5 HP, you'd delay it anyways since you're capped on HP and can't actually utilize it or any other HP generators until you spend some HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    You're either thinking too hard, or not hard enough, either way you're not grasping something pretty obvious. Umm just visualize it I guess. Also you're forgetting Art of War procs, which could go to waste if you don't use exorcism as soon as possible. But, in general, when you prioritize HP generators they come back faster, when you prioritize TV at 3HP you gain nothing because the 3HP is sitting there and not going anywhere. You spend much more time sitting around and doing nothing when you use a 3HP TV that will be there waiting for you no matter what, as opposed to using a move that has a cooldown and will be back sooner if you use it sooner.
    It seems I'm not grasping something. It just doesn't make sense to me to delay TV under any circumstance. If it is not the hardest hitting move Ret can do, then I'll re-prioritize.

    Art of War procs would be wasted anyways if you're capped at 5 HP vs. 3 HP, right? In both instances, you're delaying the use of Exorcism to use TV which does hit harder than Exo, right?

    Besides, assuming TV is the hardest hitting move Ret has, wouldn't you want to allow some abilities to be delayed for it so you won't end up having emtpy GCDs?

    I just can't see the reasoning to delay TV *IF* it's the hardest hitting ability Ret can do. If it's not, then my questions about the 3 HP vs. 5 HP are null and void. Otherwise...Idunno.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakpoth View Post
    I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.
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