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  1. #61
    DK tanking is all about patience. There is a lot of downtime with the class right now, and you are correct for not just dumping all your runes at once. If you find yourself in that position often, then perhaps you are using rune strike when you don't have both F and U runes on cooldown? you need to rune strike when you have xBxxxx to guarantee either an F or U rune getting returned from RE procs.

    One of the reasons I only recommend RE as a dps choice in my guide is that in progression tanking as a DK you want to have a DS available at all times if possible, and RE requires both FU pairs being on CD. If you are doing something other than 5 mans i'd recommend switching to RC or BT, as you don't need to game your runes in a DS-inefficient manner to maximize throughput.
    Last edited by Reniat; 2012-10-11 at 10:31 AM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    DK tanking is all about patience. There is a lot of downtime with the class right now, and you are correct for not just dumping all your runes at once. If you find yourself in that position often, then perhaps you are using rune strike when you don't have both F and U runes on cooldown? you need to rune strike when you have xBxxxx to guarantee either an F or U rune getting returned from RE procs.

    One of the reasons I only recommend RE as a dps choice in my guide is that in progression tanking as a DK you want to have a DS available at all times if possible, and RE requires both FU pairs being on CD. If you are doing something other than 5 mans i'd recommend switching to RE or BT, as you don't need to game your runes in a DS-inefficient manner to maximize throughput.
    Your post seems as if you meant to say RC instead of RE in a few spots, but I could be wrong.

    The thing I love about RC is that RS is always useful, and I can even sit on a pair of D runes to DS after heavy spikes (WoE and Elegon come to mind as current content). BTs stong point is the control, and you can even work up to 3 DSs in a row, but outside of an Impale type mechanic, if bosses are hitting hard enough to warrant 3 DSs, then I am sure DKs would not be the preferred tank (or a cooldown is needed).

  3. #63
    BT and RC are similar in survivability to eachother. When you place death strike will have far more impact than which rune regen method you pick. As far as my previous post, thanks for the heads up and fixed

  4. #64
    High Overlord Sygil's Avatar
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    Alright I'm switching to RC, thanks!

  5. #65
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    So..stamina? Does that mean our old trinkets of ilv 378 and such like Veil of Lies and Soulshifter vortex with around 600 stamina are better than the quest reward trinkets that just add dodge or parry or the brawler statue from Brewfest that only adds dodge and and "on use"?

    Just dinged 90, so I grab anything I can...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #66
    i've a question...i'm just rolled a blood dk . I'm in exping phase so i'm starting a low level istance and all it's ok. nice aggro and very good dmg as tank (my main is a pally prot) just a question about DS...i notice that sometimes add some stack on DS and i don't understand how can i use it. Need to wait on full 5 stack or i need to cast everytime?
    ps: sorry for eng

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    So..stamina? Does that mean our old trinkets of ilv 378 and such like Veil of Lies and Soulshifter vortex with around 600 stamina are better than the quest reward trinkets that just add dodge or parry or the brawler statue from Brewfest that only adds dodge and and "on use"?

    Just dinged 90, so I grab anything I can...
    sorry for the late response. Midterms + progression = busy me.
    The DS trinkets are still worth something. If you value the trinket's 600 stamina and proc more than what you'd get from a quest trinket, than use the DS trinket. ilvl means very little with trinkets, and you shouldn't feel obligated to use a trinket (or any piece of gear for that matter) strictly because of the ilvl.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsuirlife View Post
    i've a question...i'm just rolled a blood dk . I'm in exping phase so i'm starting a low level istance and all it's ok. nice aggro and very good dmg as tank (my main is a pally prot) just a question about DS...i notice that sometimes add some stack on DS and i don't understand how can i use it. Need to wait on full 5 stack or i need to cast everytime?
    ps: sorry for eng
    That stack is the new Scent of Blood. In short, the more of that number you have (up to 5) the more your DS will heal for. It's not a huge amount, and a well timed death strike with low stacks will do more healing than a poorly timed death strike with all 5 stacks. This means you should still time your DS with incoming damage as mentioned in the guide.

  8. #68
    I wouldn't mind (in fact, by posting, I'm actively seeking!) if someone would look at my logs and see if I'm "doing things right."

    DK is a re-roll for me this expac, and while I'm an experienced tank, I'm still fine-tuning my "DK-ability."

    Specifically note the Will of the Emperor kill, where I took massive amounts more damage than our Warrior. Is this normal for this encounter?

    Fully expecting any and all criticism. I'm Vyndrianne and the Warrior is Bawny, if you couldn't tell.

    Log.

  9. #69
    You are usually going to be at the top of the damage taken charts. We simply take the most damage as DKs, but you shouldn't be looking at that anyway. Look instead at external healing taken. You took 28% less heals from healers than your warrior friend, so you are fine there. The next thing you need to look at is bursty-ness. Talk to your healers and ask if you are "bursty" or "spiky", and if they say no then you are fine on both healing taken and burst damage taken which means mission accomplished. If they say you are bursty, then you may need to mess with EH a bit to find the sweet spot for you and your healers.

    Even if your healers think you're fine, there is always room for improvement. Lets go to the logs and take a look at a few things.


    RED TEXT:
    you stacked nearly all of your vampiric bloods on top of your bone shield. Like i say in awesome pixilated paint notes, you shouldn't feel the need to pop a CD while BS is active unless you are going to take extra damage. Good uptime though, just slide it into the BS gaps and you'd be golden.

    BLUE TEXT:
    We should always be trying to put cooldowns in places where we know you will have no blood shield for a while. Instead of stacking them together, you could have used DRW when you were in that gap about 20 seconds earlier. DRW uptime in general could be a lot higher, as it's a significant DPS increase as well if you use it with outbreak (double diseases).

    YELLOW TEXT:
    That gap represents time that the boss was doing +10% to you because he didn't have diseases on him. Try to minimize those gaps as best as possible (make sure you are using crimson scourge procs on BB to keep them refreshed)

    WHITE TEXT:
    IBF is a powerful cooldown. There is no reason to pop your trinket during IBF. If i recall correctly you had the armor debuff from being hit by the /dance part, and it would have been better to hit IBF and then use your trinket after your IBF fell off.

  10. #70
    Nice explanation on how I could do things a bit better, thanks!

    On the diseases, I have to defend myself though! Usually my uptime is as close to 100% as possible, but I...er...got distracted I guess?

    One question, how did you get to that detailed part that shows how I was over-lapping and such?

  11. #71

    then


    that's it


    note: for diseases you have to go to the buffs cast tab. Under debuffs you should find "Weakened Blows", which is the name of the tank debuff (the new version of scarlet fever).
    Last edited by Reniat; 2012-10-16 at 11:11 PM.

  12. #72
    Is T14 4 Piece worth it?
    Cuz I see AskMrRobot, they didn't use 4 pieces of T14 in either of their builds...
    10% increase in Death Strike is not worth it?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    [IMG]snip[/IMG]

    that's it


    note: for diseases you have to go to the buffs cast tab. Under debuffs you should find "Weakened Blows", which is the name of the tank debuff (the new version of scarlet fever).
    Thanks a ton. Like I said, my disease uptime is usually near perfect (I know how to check that other ways), but youve truly helped me with the other things. Thanks!

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by JKinTMC View Post
    Is T14 4 Piece worth it?
    Cuz I see AskMrRobot, they didn't use 4 pieces of T14 in either of their builds...
    10% increase in Death Strike is not worth it?
    It could be that amr hasn't been fully updated, or that it's going off the stats lost in order to achiev the 4pc. The tier pieces are poorly itemized. using other BiS pieces and only getting 2pc is only a bit less from a survivability standpoint compared to getting the 4pc. If you were to ignore the 4pc and just go for BiS for stats you would gain 222 dodge/121 parry/502 mastery (assuming you are using the tier chest/hands). this is definitely outweighed by the +10% healing from DS, so it's worth it to go for 4pc from that alone. In addition to that, the hit/exp you get from the poorly optimized tier pieces turns into about 2.3% extra dps.

    so in short, go for the 4pc but don't get too excited about it. Honestly the 2pc is way better, and i'd believe it if someone told me they mixed them up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    Thanks a ton. Like I said, my disease uptime is usually near perfect (I know how to check that other ways), but youve truly helped me with the other things. Thanks!
    no problem
    Last edited by Reniat; 2012-10-17 at 10:13 AM.

  15. #75
    Wouldnt the 4 piece translate to 10% more Mastery? Or am I thinking about it the wrong way?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    Wouldnt the 4 piece translate to 10% more Mastery? Or am I thinking about it the wrong way?
    the 10%, just like SoB stacks, is multiplicative as opposed to additive to the DS heal (in other words, it doesn't change your tooltip to say "death strike heals for 30% of dmg taken). This means you can think of it as a raw 10% increase to both your DS heal and your shield value. I'll break it down mathematically if you'd like to see the numbers behind it. If d is the damage taken in the last 5 seconds, m is your % of mastery, and n is the number of SoB stacks, your blood shield calculated like this:

    without 4pc
    shield = d*.20*(1+.2*n)*m

    with 4pc
    shield = d*.20*1.1*(1+.2*n)*m

    lets say you took 250k in the last 5 seconds and had 2 stacks of SoB and had 126% mastery
    without 4pc:
    (250000)*.20*(1+.2*2)*1.26 = 88.2k blood shield

    with 4pc:
    (250000)*.20*1.1*(1+.2*2)*1.26 = 97k blood shield

    that clarify it for you? or just make things worse XD

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    the 10%, just like SoB stacks, is multiplicative as opposed to additive to the DS heal (in other words, it doesn't change your tooltip to say "death strike heals for 30% of dmg taken). This means you can think of it as a raw 10% increase to both your DS heal and your shield value. I'll break it down mathematically if you'd like to see the numbers behind it. If d is the damage taken in the last 5 seconds, m is your % of mastery, and n is the number of SoB stacks, your blood shield calculated like this:

    without 4pc
    shield = d*.20*(1+.2*n)*m

    with 4pc
    shield = d*.20*1.1*(1+.2*n)*m

    lets say you took 250k in the last 5 seconds and had 2 stacks of SoB and had 126% mastery
    without 4pc:
    (250000)*.20*(1+.2*2)*1.26 = 88.2k blood shield

    with 4pc:
    (250000)*.20*1.1*(1+.2*2)*1.26 = 97k blood shield

    that clarify it for you? or just make things worse XD
    And isn't the difference between Blood Shields 10% more? 88.2k*10%=8.82k. 88.2k+8.82k=97.02k

    Maybe "10% more Mastery" was the wrong phrase to use. How about "10% stronger Blood Shields"?

    How much Mastery on gear does it take to make that difference, I think, is the important question when weighing in the other stats.

  18. #78
    question:
    Raid Finder Starshatter (http://www.wowhead.com/item=86799) with a crit->mastery reforge vs

    Lightbreaker Greatsword (http://www.wowhead.com/item=81577)?

    loose some 400 mastery I think, but gain some strength, stamina and dps, doesn't seem worth it imo, but just checking to see if I am not wrong somewhere

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    And isn't the difference between Blood Shields 10% more? 88.2k*10%=8.82k. 88.2k+8.82k=97.02k

    Maybe "10% more Mastery" was the wrong phrase to use. How about "10% stronger Blood Shields"?

    How much Mastery on gear does it take to make that difference, I think, is the important question when weighing in the other stats.
    you can think of it as +10% blood shields, but it's multiplicative and not additive. so if you have 150% mastery, the 4pc you put you at 165% if you want to think of it that way. not 150%+10%. this means that the amount of mastery rating required to match the 4pc gets higher the more mastery you have. if you had 120% mastery before 4pc, you would "have" 132% after 4pc, which would be worth about 1152 mastery. If you had say 150% mastery, "with" 165% after 4pc, it would be worth 1440 mastery.

    This is all assuming you are trying to think of it in terms of mastery and not just the easy way of saying "+10% DS heals"

    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    question:
    Raid Finder Starshatter (http://www.wowhead.com/item=86799) with a crit->mastery reforge vs

    Lightbreaker Greatsword (http://www.wowhead.com/item=81577)?

    loose some 400 mastery I think, but gain some strength, stamina and dps, doesn't seem worth it imo, but just checking to see if I am not wrong somewhere
    i'd stick with lightbreaker. The mastery loss is too much to be worth it.

    you wouldn't have used Ataraxis, Cudgel of the Warmaster instead of Pit Lord's Destroyer would you?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    i'd stick with lightbreaker. The mastery loss is too much to be worth it.

    you wouldn't have used Ataraxis, Cudgel of the Warmaster instead of Pit Lord's Destroyer would you?
    In either case I'd say the dps gain is definitely worth the rather small damage mitigation loss - at least for 10 man that is where tank damage is a really significant portion of total damage and even in a 25 man I'd say you'll generally gain more by killing the boss faster than by having a small damage reduction increase.

    Besides it's something like
    174 Sta
    116 Str
    447 Crit (2.49%)
    105 Expertise (1.02)
    423.1 Melee DPS
    1218 Melee Min Damage
    1827 Melee Max Damage


    vs 385 mastery


    imo the str/stam/exp gains alone are close enough to the mastery bonus.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

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