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  1. #421
    Honestly I haven't used lichborne since it was part of the old talent tree
    even AMZ has more situational use than lichborne for progression raiding.

  2. #422
    Are we planning to write a ToT raid tips here? I saw one on hunter subforum and it's very helpful. The poster just open the thread and let ppl to reply what they learned and summary them. I think it's a good idea.

  3. #423
    Im actually writing them up. I should have the ToT blood specific encounter guide up with all 12 normal and 5 heroic bosses (with more heroics as we progress on them) within the next day or two. I've got the outline written for most of them, it's just wrapping up the actual text. It won't take long, but I do need to finish some homework projects tonight before I finish those, which is why it might be tomorrow that the guide gets done.

  4. #424
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../pazx/advanced

    that's my death knight, was just wondering if anyone had some tips for me

  5. #425
    yay for bonus rolls, got the shoulders

    wondering just how good is the t14 2 piece? have that one atm (head+shoulders) so not sure if I should replace them already with 522 ones (got normal ones atm upgraded so 504) or wait until I also get the t15 head, I got quite used to 40s VP ^^

    also from bonus roll got the sword from council (was going for trinket), worth it over normal 2/2 upgraded sha axe? I think less mastery (if hit->mastery reforge) and strength but more weapon dps and stamina

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    Honestly I haven't used lichborne since it was part of the old talent tree
    even AMZ has more situational use than lichborne for progression raiding.
    Am I reading this right?

    Lichborne with proper vengeance and a full RP bar heals you to full health.

    It's insane how well it scales with vengeance and even better if used smartly with AMS.
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    Am I reading this right?

    Lichborne with proper vengeance and a full RP bar heals you to full health.

    It's insane how well it scales with vengeance and even better if used smartly with AMS.
    It takes a lot of vengeance, and it still costs RP AND multiple GCDs.
    Last edited by Reniat; 2013-04-08 at 08:20 AM.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    Am I reading this right?

    Lichborne with proper vengeance and a full RP bar heals you to full health.

    It's insane how well it scales with vengeance and even better if used smartly with AMS.
    1: It's a heal -> oftentimes it will just cause overheal itself (or the healers to overheal you)
    2: It costs a shitload of RP which feeds RS which results in more DS and DS is way better than DC heals
    3: The most dangerous thing for tanks is still burst damage and healers slacking off for a second which is where purgatory shines and Lichborne is useless since those situations are generally unpredictable.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    It takes a lot of vengeance, and it still costs RP AND multiple GCDs.
    I don't know about the math but I've noticed that even with a measly 100k vengeance it heals for nearly 200k per DC. A fight like Horridon where I have close to 200k vengeance at some points it heals for 350k-ish or higher, I don't know if the heal can crit (because I've seen some obscene healing with it) but I can tell you how many times it has saved my life or allowed me to solo-tank stuff when the other tank was getting ressed.

    I'm getting the sense that by progression raiding you mean HC progression which is what you're currently doing and for that I would def prefer Purgatory.

    But I really think Lichborne is underrated as a CD.

    I mean I get that it's a trade-off but we're talking about burst healing here, just like DP.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 10:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    1: It's a heal -> oftentimes it will just cause overheal itself (or the healers to overheal you)
    2: It costs a shitload of RP which feeds RS which results in more DS and DS is way better than DC heals
    3: The most dangerous thing for tanks is still burst damage and healers slacking off for a second which is where purgatory shines and Lichborne is useless since those situations are generally unpredictable.
    Overhealing means you are not using the CD smartly. Lichborne in my opinion is like a recovery tool after said burst damage which kills tanks.

    For your second point imagine having a full RP bar, no blood charges and your death runes on CD or all of them, by the time it takes you to convert the RP to death runes the boss might kill you or you will hopefully get healed by the healers.

    In that situation it would take me 2 GCDs to heal myself to full after which I can DS for a 500k shield. Without anyone's help.
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    Overhealing means you are not using the CD smartly. Lichborne in my opinion is like a recovery tool after said burst damage which kills tanks.
    In that situation it would take me 2 GCDs to heal myself to full after which I can DS for a 500k shield. Without anyone's help.
    Except that you're already dead and can't do anything.
    With purgatory the healers are now able to wake up and LoH/Lifeswap you.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Except that you're already dead and can't do anything.
    With purgatory the healers are now able to wake up and LoH/Lifeswap you.
    Burst damage on low HP is what kills tanks. DK's are pushing 800k HP raid-buffed, I don't see how there is no window of 2 GCD's in there to actually be able to recover and heal yourself.

    Will of the Necropolis proccing is the sign to use a CD immediately, in my case either DP or Lichborne.

    Have you tried using the talent in a (current) raid? Because I'm getting the sense that there is a lot of bias flying around.

    I can even admit that I was highly skeptical of it and used Purgatory almost exclusively, especially in HOF.

    But I haven't really looked back after I noticed the scaling potential and the compatibility with AMS.
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    DK's are pushing 800k HP raid-buffed, I don't see how there is no window of 2 GCD's in there to actually be able to recover and heal yourself
    Sure Horridon can deal more than 1 million damage within 2 seconds on heroic even with cooldowns up you're looking at damage numbers you just can't react to. (He already has an insane burst potential by the end of p2 on normal)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    Will of the Necropolis proccing is the sign to use a CD immediately, in my case either DP or Lichborne.
    Sometimes damage bursts through WotN sometimes it's just on cooldown.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    Have you tried using the talent in a (current) raid? Because I'm getting the sense that there is a lot of bias flying around.
    No, because
    On fights where it can be used..... I don't think it's needed anyway.
    It takes away a passive oh shit cd.
    I don't feel like getting an extra keybind and pooling RP.
    Last edited by Nillo; 2013-04-08 at 05:41 PM.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Sure Horridon can deal more than 1 million damage within 2 seconds on heroic even with cooldowns up you're looking at damage numbers you just can't react to. (He already has an insane burst potential by the end of p2 on normal)
    Definitely, Horridon HC and maybe some of the other hard-hitting bosses on HC progression, but I wasn't being specific. I'm talking about the talent in general, so that includes normal modes too (even LFR if you want it to)

    Sometimes damage bursts through WotN sometimes it's just on cooldown.
    This is exactly why we have multiple CD's, not just 1 or 2.

    No, because
    On fights where it can be used..... I don't think it's needed anyway.
    It takes away a passive oh shit cd.
    I don't feel like getting an extra keybind and pooling RP.
    Thought so.
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

  14. #434
    The question of Lichborne shouldn't necessarily be if it is a decent cooldown (it's okay but it has the RP pooling and GCD usage problems).

    It should be a question of whether it's ever a better choice than Purg or even AMZ. Honestly, LFR you could go in untalented and probably be just fine.

  15. #435
    It's the RP pooling that breaks Lichborne for me. Either you plan the usage out ahead and only suffer a massive resource cost, or you sit on 80+ RP all the time and suffer an insane resource cost.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Barael View Post
    It's the RP pooling that breaks Lichborne for me. Either you plan the usage out ahead and only suffer a massive resource cost, or you sit on 80+ RP all the time and suffer an insane resource cost.
    What's wrong with planning ahead? As a tank you should know what's coming soon anyways, and be ready for it. Purg is great if you're blown off your ass, but doesn't strictly do anything. Death Pacting immediately before you die is just as effective as Death Pacting to get out of Purg.
    It takes very little time to build up to 40 Runic, which amounts to a 300k heal even without Vamp; it doesn't require that much prediction, especially if you keep track for when healers are starting to cast heals on other people while you're taking heavy damage.

    Durumu Colorblind phase with 3 stacks I nearly plan to always use Lichborne at (since DS is best used back to back to block Hard Stare, imho). Saves me being at any risk and saves IBF for lasting through the 4th stack/5th Hard Stare.

    If a boss hasn't got the potential to global you (Horridon is a Purg boss, no questions asked) then Lichborne can be more effective than Purg. It's a preference and playstyle thing, and also depends on what you're raiding. 25-man heroic puts Purg way higher than 10-man normal does. I think it's a good, balanced choice between the two, and I swap a lot. (poor AMZ has to suck up the tier though)

  17. #437
    So atm I am stuck on what to buy with valor and will cap out this week if i don't buy something. Armory is
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nominom/simple

    At this point i've kept my gloves and legs so i get 2pc from T14, but not sure what, if anything, I can replace.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    So atm I am stuck on what to buy with valor and will cap out this week if i don't buy something. Armory is
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nominom/simple

    At this point i've kept my gloves and legs so i get 2pc from T14, but not sure what, if anything, I can replace.
    Buy the DPS cloak.
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

  19. #439
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    You guys are going at the whole Lichborne vs Purgatory debate completely wrong. NOTE: Since we are in the Blood DK thread, I'm only talking about the effectiveness in relation to tanking. It might change for DPSing.

    First you need to decide whether or not you pick Blood Tap over the other T5 talents.

    I guess there is no point in discussing the viability of Runic Empowerement as all sims show that it is worst of the 3 T5 talents. It just comes down to Blood Tap vs Runic Corruption.

    While RC is steady regen, BT adds the necessary control and removes RNG. I wouldn't wanna miss BT anymore. Sure, it's another button you need to integrate in your rotation but the control you get from actually utilizing it, is just insane. It saved my ass quite alot in T14 (and now in T15) progression. Overall you just gain more survivability - not even because of the control element, but also because BT can return you Deathrunes out of Bloodrunes, which RC can not.


    Bloodtap vs. Lichborne

    If you pick Bloodtap, there is no way in hell you can pick Lichborne. Those 2 skills cannibalize each other. You can only have one or the other. If you play your rotation correctly, you will never ever have more than 30-40 Runepower. And the chances you actually have 40+ Runepower the moment you need them to heal with LB, are slim to none. You need to pool RP in order for LB to be effective. And for 100 RP you pool, you can get out 3 Runestrikes which means you will get 6 Blood Charges, and that will most likely (like 90%) be another DS (either because you still have 4 remaining Charges and you can double tap, or you still have one deathrune/unholyrune/frostrune). And if you get hit that hard, that a LB heal is viable (like sub 30%, because over 60% it will most likely overheal you, unless your healers are afk), you will get an insane DS heal / BS which will most likely outheal your LB in terms of effectiveness.

    EDIT: Yes, I know that a DC also rewards Blood Charges. But you will only get 4 with a capped RP bar which isn't even one DS. Effectively, you will only lose the DPS of 3 RS and 1 Blood Charge, while gaining 2 Heals for 200-350k HP each. Your runes should be recharged after that anyway to the extend, that you can DS after that.

    To add to that, the current meta game doesn't really allow for you to sit on your runepower or overcap it for several seconds, because you will need those extra runestrikes, those extra proccs, those extra dps (at least on 10man heroic progression). Progression DKs even sub out Tankgear for DPS gear (like trinkets and stuff) on certain fights, to squeeze out that extra dps. And lemme tell you another thing. If you really sit at 200k Vengeance to warrant "insane" LB heals, your damage intake is insanely high. Besides maybe Magaera HC, the magic damage done by bosses this raidtier isn't really that high or that often you can't utilize AMS every time. And picking LB over DS on hard hitting melee encounters, is just seriously wrong.


    Runic Corruption vs. Lichborne

    Even if you pick RC over BT, an arguement can be made that you lose DS by using LB. When you need to pool LB in order to save up for that big hit that will drop you, you will lose RC proccs for quite some time (like 10+ seconds, cause you need to dump your entire runepool about 2 times worst case to max your RP). That also means your runes regen slower, which means not only do you lose DS Healing/Shield over the course of lets say a 7 minutes fight, but you will lose the DPS of DS and the DPS of the Runestrikes aswell. And if you really wanna utilize LB, you need to use it at least 2-3 times during that 7 minute window. That means 30+ seconds of slower rune regen (potentially, its still a 45% proc chance) and 30+ seconds of not rune striking. Add it up and you will see that even with RC instead of BT, you will lose alot of DPS and also some DS Heals.

    Still, LB is more viable with RC than it is with BT, because you will most likely be able to bank a little bit more RP with RC, without hurting your DPS/Survivability as much.


    But, I can use AMS to fill my RP and then dump it with LB

    While the argument itself is correct, the outcome is still wrong. You need to receive a big magic hit to fill your RP up to 100% (with AMS glyph) or a series of ticks (without AMS glyph) in order for that argument to be valid. But it's more than that. You will also need to drop below a certain HP threshold in order to be effective. When you AMS a hit and your RP fills up, you usually dont lose that much HP. Thats the whole point of AMS.

    On fights where you take one big hit and your HP drops to 50%, you should have used the AMS glyph. If you have the AMS glyph, you wont drop at all mostly. I can't think of a single fight this tier off the top of my head, where you get nuked for 800k+ Magic Damage (as a tank) in one big hit (maybe during later progression, but I dont remember any such spells). And when you don't drop to <30-40% after using AMS, the rune power you receive from it, gets wasted. Because you will either need to sit on your RP and wait for your HP to drop - again, sitting on 100% RP (and maybe even overcapping it) is extremely bad in the current meta game. Or you will spend it on RS, which kills your LB argument.

    There are only 2 possible ways to use LB in Combination with AMS in my eyes:

    a) Fights like Magaera HC (Breathes) or Ji-Kun HC (soaking puddles), where you won't use AMS glyph and at the same time suffer a large amount of magic damage over a few seconds. On those fights you can actually heal yourself up while receiving damage, spending your RP as soon as you receive it.

    b) Hard-Hitting Melee fights pared with magic-raid effects and AMS glyph. Let's say, Horridon HC - you tank the Boss in P1 and park yourself in a sandtrap for a few seconds, so you can heal yourself up. Maybe even Lei Shen NHC, where you charge your RP with AMS while Bolt-Lightning Adds are AoEing the Raid and you mostly Bloodboil/DnD instead of DS. You can heal yourself in between with LB, instead of DSing the Boss - so you can spend the Runes on AoE Abilities. But then again, your raid will be aoe-healing anyways and you will most likely receive alot of overheal. And on Horridon, I doubt its wise to pick LB over Purgatory with the insane burst capabilities on this encounter, just so you can squeeze out some LB heals for the sake of it. I just listed him as an example.
    Note: It's a weak argument, but I guess it could be made, so its here for the sake of it


    Lichborne vs. Purgatory vs. AMZ

    Last but not least, the topic question. Only after all those other things have been asked and answered, you can take a look directly at these abilities.

    AMZ is not really good. At least not on a wide spectrum. But it has it's niches. When you have a large magic hit coming - and only that one large magic hit - it's fucking awesome. Because it will always reduce the hit it fizzles on by 75%. You can pick it for those large hits that will reduce your HP below the threshhold, even though you used your AMS glyph, therefore makeing the LB effectiveness even smaller. Because DMG Mitigation is always better than Healing. One possibly usage for example would be Static Shock on Lei-Shen, so you can shield your ally if he doesn't have a cd ready anymore and would therefore most certainly die.

    Purgatory. The life-saver. Especially during HC Progression. Sometimes you just die (or you would die) and you can't do anything about that. T15 HC has ALOT of those bosses. Horridon, Tortos, Primordius, Lei-Shen just to name a few. Some are seriously soul-crushing.

    Lichborne. Pick it for everything you wouldn't choose AMZ or Purgatory - but only on fights where you can utilize AMS (unglyphed) often AND only if the fight is not a DPS check. Not sure such a fight exists in T15. Even on Ji-Kun HC I would rather pick Purgatory over LB, because that 2nd or even 3rd (if you're not the one doing nests) Talon Strike hurts. Alot. Your damage intake while soaking puddles is somewhat predictable and controllable, so you shouldn't be in any real danger to really need LB. It's just a little mana saver for your healers here.

    LB also has another problem - there is no guarantee that your heal will actually be effective. If you run with a Pala, chances are that he will LoH you shortly before/after you use LB (because he should know that you dont run with purgatory and he cant really know in a splitseconds decision if you have LB ready).

    EDIT: Yes, I know that all my assumptions are based on a fully banked RP bar. LB is also good to heal yourself just once for 200-300k instead of using a DS, making it more viable to use it mid-rotation. But the cooldown is way too high on it just to be used once every 2 minutes to heal yourself for 250k. That situation where everything you have is on cooldown, you can't DS and you have 40 RP ready AND you will die before you receive another heal / can heal yourself up again with DS, is pretty rare. And Purgatory hits the same Niche and protects you from other "oh-shit" situations you might run into aswell. Also, the overhealing component applies here aswell. It might not be your LB heal that overheals you, but your healers heal. If your healers heal lands on you before you take enough damage again, so that the heal can actually heal you, your LB was wasted and your RP/GCD could have been spent on DPS.


    Summary

    Lichborne is good. Its not underrated. Its just not usable in the current meta game. It's very situational.
    It cannibalizes your DPS, your T5 talents and along that even your survivability a little (Runregen etc.).
    It takes away the best (passive) oh-shit button currently implemented in the game.

    Don't use it for T15 (Progression), unless you exactly know what you're doing or your healers demand it.

    Farmcontent, LFR, 5-man-Heroic, PVP, Questing, Leveling are all great possibilities to use LB. Those are the situations where LB will shine.


    ---


    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    Overhealing means you are not using the CD smartly. Lichborne in my opinion is like a recovery tool after said burst damage which kills tanks.

    For your second point imagine having a full RP bar, no blood charges and your death runes on CD or all of them, by the time it takes you to convert the RP to death runes the boss might kill you or you will hopefully get healed by the healers.

    In that situation it would take me 2 GCDs to heal myself to full after which I can DS for a 500k shield. Without anyone's help.
    You're totally right here. It's a recovery tool. But, if you play your rotation correctly and you actually try to get as many global cds in there as possible, there will never ever be a situation where you have a maxed out RP bar. Not if you're not running with Haste items to push your rune regen/DPS.

    When you actually have a Full RP bar on a hard hitting encounter where you can't use AMS - and you play with bloodtap - you have failed your rotation. It actually quite possible that you wouldn't have needed to heal yourself back up with LB, because you would have that DS ready to heal yourself back up.

    And especially if you have just dumped all your runes (that includes 2x DS), there should not come a damage in between 3 GCDs that can kill you. Otherwise either you have failed your rotation (again) or you messed up your timing and didn't preplan ahead for the incoming damage or your healers are seriousy drowning. And most times you will always have a DS ready after 1-2 GCDs again when playing properly with Bloodtap.

    Might me different if you play with runic corruption, but since you made your argument with blood charges and blood tap, I don't think its valid.
    Last edited by Riemu2k3; 2013-04-10 at 02:49 PM.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    [snip]
    I still don't see how the (frankly overpowered) scaling potential of Lichborne is not well-known. Let's say we're using a full RP bar, that's 3 rune strikes which is equivalent to 1 death rune, the state of the rest of your runes is RNG because it depends on the moment, the situation.

    The AM system doesn't really 'allow' a rotation, we react to what is happening. The fact that with VB it heals for absurd amounts, the compatability with AMS which is there, maybe not as frequent on every boss.

    And how it affects the DS (damage taken/heal) window is prob the biggest perk because for that limited amount of time you're not migitating damage, you're healing it up and it allows you to DS for massive shields.

    I also don't see how it's a bad thing to spend a full RP bar on a CD to keep yourself alive (every 2 min if neccessary, which ofc it isn't), who cares honestly if you're migitating it or healing it up. Your job as a tank is to keep others from harm and keep yourself alive, with the help of healers.

    PS: I'm not a Purgatory hater, it's amazing but it's a fail-safe. I prefer having control.
    Last edited by Nyanmaru; 2013-04-10 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Don't quote walls of text. Thanks. ~Nyanmaru
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

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