Curious a bit. been reading main post and some posts here and there but, im in a annoying spot atm. rolled Dk for guild now. but tanking endgame heroics in 520 kinda hurts, would it be wisest to stack stamina or mastery (if stacking stam id still sit on roughly 7-9k mastery) or should i do a mix of stam mastery and haste? my survability have never been an issue before but consider i went from LFR/pugs to end heroics i need to adjust a bit at start
Klicky for WoL
seems im not pressing enough Death strikes, is there a way to check logs to see how many runes i wasted on not using DS?
1 perfectly timed Death Strike typically trumps Death Strike spamming with weaker shields.
Well, i'm a little confused. I've seen DKs going on Full haste gear with DPS bonus and I'm playing at Mastery build right now.
I'm thinking on giving a shot on Haste build to test, my question is:
What will change to my playstyle?
What I need to focus?
Armory for any wellcome advice "character/azralon/Aÿacos/advanced"
Every Blood DK has a different comfort level which is dependent on your playstyle and mainly your healers. If you are good at fully using all of your CD's on a rotation basis and the healers are on top of things, you will be fine and do amazing damage as well.
Last thing I will point out though is that you may reach a point with so much haste that you are RP capping yourself and not able to dump it quick enough, I am already running into this problem myself seemingly in spikes and I run a mastery>haste build right now.
Well, i tryied some haste on gear, but no going first then mastery. I've got +-12% haste on gear and downed some stamina and some mastery(230% to 210% Buffed).
It went awesome, i can mitigate low dmg very well, and for some bosses i can stack my shield pretty well too.
And how you said, at some spikes its hard, and its, but with the right Defensive CD we can manage it.
I dunno what happens sometimes, DK now its getting stack of Scent of Blood so fast that i dont need to care about the mastery lost. But at Full Haste, yes, i dont think its the best idea right now. Maybe for some players.
So asked a thing in 5.4 ptr change thread but as most blood questions they disapear in the dps discussions so il move my question here:
anyone tested out Juggernaut's Focusing Crystal yet for blood? is it worth grabbing along with thok trinket?
Got the answer:
I don't have experiance with it, but dodge being as meh as it is for blood and the fact that our mitigation is a heal + shield, I'm not sure how useful it would be. even at 200k dps 2.5% of that is 5000 hps. Looking at some logs that would be about 10% of my effective healing, but about 35% of my healing is overheal.
Since there is no control of when you are healing with it, I'd put this trinket at over 50% overheal. Personally, unless there was something I'm really missing, I think its going to be a very underpowered trinekt for us.
So then it popped up in my mind:
Granted dodge is rather crap but it can be reforged into mastery. and havent found any other non stam trinket from SoO that looks good as thok's, was just curious consider thok's amplifies my critical strike damage and healing by 8%. given i critt alot with riposte (not an insane amount but still more than before) wouldnt that 8% add up to the total dmg i do and therefor increasing the heal from the trinket?
Edit; also the healing from juggernaut, do this increase by 8% from thok's?.
Is this something we know work together or is there not enough testing of these 2 trinkets combined?
Thok don't increase your heal from DS because it isn't critical heal. It'll only increase your mastery, haste and crit. I tested juggernaut on ptr and I think it would be great for AoE figths. Juggernaut give you 2388 dodge -> 40% mastery -> 955 mastery and 1433 dodge -> 75% riposte -> 955 mastery, 1433 dodge and 1074 crit ( 1-2% crit).
I guess I am confused, is stacking haste better than master, exp or hit?
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Sine this is a quasi fim my dk thread, especially for blood, I hope it's ok to post this here:
I am the OT in a 10-man normal raid group. A warrior is our MT. We have cleared 4/14 in SoO and, so far, I feel like i am doing ... just ok. I know my dps could improve, my active mitigation can improve, my stats can improve, but I am not entirely sure where to begin.
So, since there seems to be an abundance of quality DKs here, I thought I would ask for help.
I greatly appreciate anyone taking the time to look this over.
Here is the log for our sha kill
Here is a link to my armory.
Wrathnruin: If you want more dps, gear for it: lose some dodge/parry for haste. Drop your mastery a bit for offensive stats. Get some offensive trinkets and burn your resources during periods high vengeance+trinket procs. If you're 3-healing (and you are), you can afford to gear more for dps if dps seems to be blocking your progression.
Finish your legendary cloak--regardless of which one you're using, you can easily get the 5k coins and 4 celestial kills in a couple hours tops and there's no reason to not have either a bonus cleave or a free cheat-death.
Fallen protectors: keep your diseases spread onto sun and rook whenever possible. 3 hits from gouge--don't get hit by that.
Norushen: Spec'd for asphyxiate but only used it once. Fix that--stun big adds and help mitigate their AoE. Log is misleading, since it doesn't account for the two times you went down or when the logger went down. That said, I'm assuming you were the first one down and that you didn't go down a second time (if not, please correct me). missing vengeance more than 15% of the time--more rapid taunt-swaps will fix that a bit. Never used AMS/AMZ in the fight? There's constant AoE spell damage, so AMS should probably be glyphed (regenerative) and used on cooldown.
Sha of Pride: again, missing some vengeance. Usage of remorseless winter indicates you're not next to the pile of little adds when they pop up every time--ought to precast D&D, outbreak one, spread diseases to all, remorseless winter, fire off a blood boil or two and then get in position to release someone from the prison). No damage on the big add, low damage on small adds--seems you might be tunneling a bit (don't have to worry about facing him a particular direction when adds are up, as the dps should/will all be on the adds). 2 reaching attacks?
All: Icy Touch usage is out of control: 33 casts on sha of pride, for instance is far too many--Get it down to the single digits. It looks like you hoard your cooldowns rather than use them proactively. AMZ, for instance on Sha was only used once, IBF was glyphed and used only 4 times in an 8 minute fight. AMS was only used 3 times, but you took spell damage on more than 3 occasions (every time the boss casts swelling pride, that's a good time for AMS. Consider switching Glyph of Death Coil for Vampiric blood, consider unglyphing IBF for the fights you listed, it's not particularly awesome in them.
chibichibiko: Wow, although I look at the logs, I tend to focus on a few items. I never looked at how much I cast Icy Touch. Thirty-three times! Dang.
DPS isn't blocking our progression. I just feel I need to contribute more to our raid team. I am a firm believer in tank dps does indeed matter and as such, I want to improve that area.
My RL has me take He away from Rook and Sun. Would it be better if we didn't do that? Getting hit by the gouge was stupid on my part. Truly need to be more careful.
Sha of pride: The way we do the fight is to have dps stack away from the tanks. As a result I rarely, if ever, get to swing, or even aoe, on the little adds and never on the big add. I only hit the ones that spawn by the MT and I.
As to my CDs, yes, I hoard them. Should I be using them at will?
On Norushen, yes, I was the first one down and only went down once. I suspected I was lacking on my usage of AMS, your pointing it out confirmed my thought.
Thanks, Chi. I truly appreciate the help.
I will be taking a look at getting some different trinkets and finishing the cloak. I am irritated that real life has prevented me from getting it done.
updated for 5.4
I haven't had much of an issue surviving this tier so far, we downed Thok last night so it's been a pretty fast pace for a 6 hour a week guild. But I've been feeling like my DPS is not up to snuff.
I compared myself to our BrM tank and was like, I hate my life, I wish I could tank and do a metric ton of dps. I feel like I'm really in tune with my class, I've got some really solid WeakAuras set up to make sure I don't miss some key things, etc.. Last tier I started playing my DK as my main about half through ToT, and so I've only been raid tanking since then, but I feel like I understand my spell usage pretty well. Maybe I'm deceiving myself?
The biggest reason I can identify for my lower damage is that I seem to be tanking less, and my co-tank has almost 60% crit so a very offensive build on an offensive tank. Immerseus my tank time was basically a few seconds, as our dps was so fast I would taunt and he would immediately submerge. Spoils I did really well, most fights I did average, Malkorok I did terrible.
In fact as I look at my "damage taken" across most fights, I'm taking a lot less damage in most cases, which leads me to think I'm not really tanking as often. He also always pulls as the vengeance is leveraged better by his class than mine.
With all that said, I want to see what I can do better. Our logs are below.
You can see last tier I did pretty competitive damage, especially considering we didn't cheese any mechanics or do any single tanking, etc. But this tier has been a mixed bag, and I went out of haste and back into avoidance to try that out. Not using DPS trinkets or cloak this tier yet but considering it especially on the first half+ of fights as they are so easy for us already.
I'm open to feedback, especially on things like spell usage etc. I'm not good at digging through logs.
-Disease uptime is really poor. 41% on Frost Fever and 53% on Blood Plague. The #1 rule of all DKs is keep your diseases up. On a single target fight like Malkorok, there's no reason disease uptime should be less than 98-100%. Increasing your uptime to 100% would have boosted your dps by about 15k.
-20 Crimson Scourge procs, but you only cast Death and Decay 3 times, and Blood Boil 4 times. There are 13 procs that went to waste. These procs are basically free DPS and cost you nothing but a GCD; make sure you use them! Better uptime on your diseases means more Crimson Scourge procs, and using procs on Blood Boil will refresh your diseases. This is a big reason why your disease uptime is so low.
-Only 5 Soul Reapers, and one of them didn't go off before the boss died. In a 5m15s fight, assuming the boss is below 35% for about 1m30s (which he probably was, if not longer than that, because you guys Bloodlusted at the start of the fight), you should have time for 15 Soul Reapers in that timeframe. Soul Reaper hits way harder than anything else we have, especially considering the alternative use of a Blood rune is Heart Strike, which hits like a wet noodle comparatively. 10 more Soul Reapers would have boosted your DPS by 10-15k.
-You didn't use Army of the Dead at all, and you only used Raise Dead once. You could have used it three times.
-Only used Dancing Rune Weapon 3 times; could have used it 4 times.
On other fights, I found that you didn't use AMS a whole lot; take advantage of soaking things to provide yourself with more RP. If you have to focus on fixing one thing for now, focus on keeping your diseases up 100% of the time. This is really easy for Blood DKs to accomplish, considering Blood Boil refreshes them, and Crimson Scourge gives us free Blood Boils.
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Sorry for the double post, but this is a totally different topic: I want to talk about Blood gearing, specifically from the point of view of 10H DPS and the value of haste this tier. Last tier, a typical balanced approach between survival and DPS was the following strategy:
Hit/exp cap > comfortable level of mastery > 20-25% haste > crit
The updated balanced approach in the OP roughly reflects last tier's priority, with no limit on haste and no avoidance or crit. I am questioning the value of haste for DPS in this tier. Our resource generation is greatly increased from the previous tier due to the Scent of Blood changes, more frequent AMS soaking due to Glyph of Regenerative Magic, the CD reduction trinket, DRW no longer having an RP cost, and the 4-piece set bonus. Anecdotally, I am finding myself GCD locked at only ~14% haste unbuffed. Take a look at tonight's Garrosh kill for an example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...?s=5325&e=5962
I gained ~3200 RP from AMS, and ~3000 RP from Scent of Blood. Over a 10.5 minute fight, that translates to nearly 20 extra Rune Strikes per minute from those two sources of RP alone. That takes up 20 GCDs per minute out of 60 (assuming no latency or input lag and perfect reaction time; more realistically, our GCDs spent per minute is lower than that), and that's completely ignoring RP generation all other sources and ignoring using GCDs on spending runes.
I created a Simcraft actionlist that would mimic a Blood DK spending runes and RP immediately (thus taking full advantage of haste), using all D/U/F runes on DS and Blood Runes on the highest possible damage ability and avoiding capping RP:
The defensive cooldowns don't really matter because they are off the GCD, don't cost resources, and because Simcraft can't really model proactive CD usage the way a human would use them; I just left them in for posterity. With my particular gear, reforging for Avoidance after Mastery/Hit/Exp yields a higher DPS benefit than adding additional Haste. Obviously, Crit would yield a higher DPS benefit but no survival benefit.Code:actions.precombat=flask,type=earth actions.precombat+=/food,type=chun_tian_spring_rolls actions.precombat+=/blood_presence actions.precombat+=/horn_of_winter # Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done. actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion actions.precombat+=/bone_shield actions.precombat+=/army_of_the_dead # Executed every time the actor is available. actions=auto_attack # if=time>10 actions+=/blood_fury # if=time>10 actions+=/berserking # if=time>10 actions+=/arcane_torrent # if=time>10 actions+=/bone_shield,if=buff.bone_shield.down actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=60 actions+=/antimagic_shell,if=runic_power<=30,interval=45,damage=150000 actions+=/vampiric_blood actions+=/raise_dead actions+=/icebound_fortitude,if=health.pct<=75 actions+=/rune_tap,if=health.pct<90&blood>=1 actions+=/death_pact,if=talent.death_pact.enabled&health.pct<50 actions+=/dancing_rune_weapon actions+=/outbreak,if=buff.dancing_rune_weapon.up actions+=/death_strike,if=(unholy+frost)>=4 actions+=/rune_strike,if=runic_power>=80 actions+=/outbreak,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking|!dot.frost_fever.ticking actions+=/blood_boil,if=(blood>=1&(dot.frost_fever.remains<=5|dot.blood_plague.remains<=5)) actions+=/death_and_decay,if=buff.crimson_scourge.react actions+=/blood_boil,if=buff.crimson_scourge.react actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking actions+=/icy_touch,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking actions+=/death_strike actions+=/soul_reaper,if=target.health.pct<=35 actions+=/rune_strike actions+=/heart_strike actions+=/horn_of_winter actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=!unholy&!frost
I'd like to hear the thoughts/experiences of other DKs, but to me it seems that gearing for Haste is pretty pointless this tier due to our insane resource generation leading to GCD capping at such a low amount, and you might as well gear for Dodge/Parry after Mastery for combined survival/DPS or Crit (like last tier) if you really need maximum DPS.
Thanks so much for looking at my log, I really appreciate that. I have a few gaps in my awareness that you pointed out, so I've got a few key points to focus on. I'll probably start by getting a weakaura to remind me when disease dots are < ~3 seconds left or have fallen off, and probably something for Soul Reaper too. I've gotten in the habit of saving my Ghoul for Oh Shiz moments with Dark Pact but, as somebody else pointed out, having him out and ready to use isnt a bad thing.
One of my weaknesses as a player is often that I'm very focused on raid awareness and calling out mechancis for people as a boss is new, and also making sure we're executing things properly and thinking about the big picture a lot. My guild leader (the other tank) and I are definitely the most vocal players during a fight and often afterwards.
I had the same problem on my warlock. New fights I'd tunnel mechanics and get those right, then work on my DPS a lot. By the time I got comfortable enough with the class that it wasn't an issue, I had switched to the DK. Now I've been playing for a while and need to iron out those kings.
PS, thanks to the DK's on MMO champs that are contributing to this conversation, it helps a lot to see the fruits of your labors in theorycrafting, testing, and teaching other players to better them.
Wrathnruin--sorry for the delay in answering this; I've been away from the computer for a few days.
I tend to think of DK cooldowns in a few sorts:
Use on cooldown, no matter if you are even going to be hit: Bone Shield
Use just after taunting: DRW, Vamp Blood (glyphed)
Use to mitigate selectively if survival is an issue, else burn rotationally whenever they can do some good: AMS, IBF(glyphed), AMZ, Vamp Blood(unglyphed)
Oh Shit!: Death Pact, IBF (unglyphed)
The individual fights tend to dictate how many cooldowns I have to save for selective mitigation of boss mechanics. I tend to hoard IBF for last expenditure as my final 'oh shit' button. It's not optimal play, but it's the catch-all problem solver if shit hits the fan.
Let's take a fight like sha of pride, for instance. There's no 'oh shit' moment for tanks in the entire fight. In fact, you can put on almost all dps gear and be fine unless you're baiting reaching attacks for vengeance (which, coincidentally, you can do with AMS/AMZ to mitigate). I often don't use IBF as a result. The rest of my cooldowns, since they aren't needed for boss mechanics, become rotational and I just chain them one-after-another with one exception. Each cycle I bait a reaching attack with AMS up while I go to grip the big add in the back, which I follow with strangulate.
Now let's have a look at Iron Juggernaut. There's several moments where the shit can potentially hit the fan for a dk tank, but cooldowns really help with that. IBF can get you through 3 mines on its own if you're fast. Bone shield, likewise can cover all 3 mines. Vampiric blood is better off for flame vent duty, along with AMS/AMZ. Since I'm only actively able to parry for about 1/4 the fight, DRW is used when I first get the boss and thereafter pretty much on cooldown. Death pact stays in its 'oh shit' slot, but I tend to predict needing it after either the 2nd mine or near the end of my flame vent stacking time.
I don't assume that my way is the best way for this--but it tends to make me feel in-control of the situation, and since I do most of the callouts in our guild, I can always beg a pain suppression or hand of sac from one of our healers if I'm really in an oh-shit moment where I need damage reduction by %, so that has to be taken into account.
While it's a rhetorical question, I'll field a rhetorical question in response:
If I defined 'just after' as 'within the first 5ish seconds', would you quibble over the usage in that manner?
Your blood shield isn't likely to still be capped at that point, your vengeance post-taunt and after a few swings is fairly stable (barring stacking amplifying debuffs like on malkorok), and you will still be able to use DRW to mitigate the tank transition at that point, which is why I burn it early--to smooth the tank transition even more (my offtank has low hitpoints/self recovery and often demands healer attention for the early part of my tanking turn). The loss of personal dps from burning DRW after 5 seconds as opposed to after 10 seconds is, in my estimation, marginal, but putting it off until your blood shield is out is spikier tankplay--I prefer to use it to extend my bloodhsield buffer than to use it to rebuild it after it's all gone. I may justify it in terms of dps by arguing that I might get to use DRW an extra time in the fight by using it sooner, but in all honesty I'm just more likely to make full use of it if I'm using it early than if I'm trying to use it at the close of my tank turn.
Further, on some fights, you might not even hold the boss for 20 seconds at a time (other tank needs riposte/vengeance too, and if the boss can be shared on a <20s cycle it works out to be more dps for everyone to cycle it faster). On those, putting it off longer than 'just after' is a mitigation loss, and since I was categorizing mitigation... If you're feeling immortal, I'd think you'd just have a separate category for DRW, Ghoul, and Army to just pop during high vengeance/trinkets/Kafa and not care about the parry DRW offers--I'm convinced (but open to mathematical counterarguments) that popping it after just a couple seconds offers a more stable tanking experience on most single-target experiences.
So there's a bunch of reasons, but I suspect that the 'rule' of when to use it ends up being much more a matter of art than prejudice.
It might be a habit he picked up trying to pull aggro off of a monk tank during taunt swaps. I used to do this, and even had it glyphed, as I was about 20 ilvl's behind him back then.
Now that we're in SoO and 5.4 hit, I save it for when vengeance is high and right after another cooldown, but my goal is to use it as much as possible when vengeance is high. I also try to use it when I have full runes, do the double dot, blow my runes, DRW, blow the rest (with DS being priority the whole time) and hit outbreak before it drops (as described in OP).
Vengeance tends to spike up pretty quickly, and he might also be doing it to smooth the transition for healers. DRW is decent for that, but it's still RNG based, so I'm guessing it's a threat/habit thing.
On a side note, I know OP says in guide to go Str/Haste for dps, any thoughts on how that compares to parry/mastery (fine) gems right now with riposte? Some other posts I've seen have been suggesting that parry/mastery is a much better idea. I think the only reason I did str/haste or str/mastery in so many slots is I was concerned about using the gear in frost spec as well on the side, but I don't care anymore.
Last edited by Soularpower; 2013-09-28 at 03:23 AM.