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  1. #341
    Dreadlord
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    just wanted to know if my DK would be ready for ToT normal... (bought trinket + bracers because i had blue heroic items equipped)

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nthos/advanced thanks in advance

  2. #342
    Should be more than enough for the first few bosses.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  3. #343
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    [PVE] Blood DK - Tanking problems

    Hello,

    I am an officer of a guild and our tank has been having problems recently. He is a good player but recently in raids he seems to die alot and it is harder for him to hold aggro. While on the contrary our Gaurdian druid seems to being better than him, while i beleive both of them have the same skill set.

    Here is his armory:

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...heorc/advanced

    Can you tell us if the problem is from gems, enchants or reforges ??

  4. #344
    Armory says frost pve DW gear so that's not particularly helpful. A WoL link or 3 might help the rest of us a bit more but as far as i'm aware druids stack an offensive stat for their mitigation which will always put their threat ahead of DK's.

    The context/gear level/experience would also help. Generally we can't just 'fix' your dk with an armory link and nothing else.

  5. #345
    but as far as i'm aware druids stack an offensive stat for their mitigation which will always put their threat ahead of DK's.
    And dk's are the tank who does the most damage (and threat) without vengeance, which is in the beginning of the fight and the only time threat is even a thing.

    But yeah. We can't do a otn without logs

  6. #346
    He's camped in frost gear as other's have said but his itemization/reforges look relatively on point for frost so I'm going to assume he's properly prioritizing mastery.



    Having threat issues is weird to me. Is he having trouble with initial burst threat, ae threat, mid encounter adds, or tank swaps?

    For burst threat: ask him about his rotation. Tell him to use empower rune weapon as an offensive cooldown on pull if necessary. This will allow him to open with outbreak -> DS -> DS -> rune strike spam -> RE -> repeat. Unless your dps massively outgear him there is no chance he will lose agro. Once vengeance kicks in he should be perfect.


    For tank swapping the off tank needs to slow down on damage or switch stances/forms since a 100 k vengeance tank will easily peel agro over a tank with 0 vengeance. I've had issues on fights where my OT doesn't slow down on dps and will peel agro almost immediately. This is your druid's fault not the DK's.

    The only threat/dps issues a DK should ever have is mass AE tanking since a DK is forced to prioritize DS for survivability over blood boil spam for agro. I've rarely had an issue with ae threat even under those circumstance but my dps will lag behind other tanks that can freely spam their AE abilities.


    In regards to survivability: There is a very good chance that he does not properly understand the encounter's you are attempting. The primary factor that distinguishes a good and bad DK tank is the ability to properly forecast the next 15 seconds of a fight and know when runes/abilities should be pooled for burst damage. DK's have very little in their arsenal to properly react to burst damage and instead it is their job to prevent it preemptively. This means using VB/IBF prior to a burst ability hitting, having a death pact macro ready for unexpected burst, and pooling death runes for a double DS prior to tank killing attacks (and even 10 blood tap charges for a 3rd if necessary).


    I'm going to use horridon as an example: Threat is of minor importance for a tank on horridon compared to survival. As a result, it is a blood DK's job to focus on rune management to always have a double or triple DS shield up prior to each triple puncture. Furthermore as he reaches higher stacks he should be using a major CD (IBF, VB, bone shield, trinkets, etc) to give more room for error in surviving. Playing like this may lower the DK's dps by a small margin due to rune pooling but it will make the fight much smoother on your healers since your DK tank will make damage much more constant instead of a roller coaster of 0 damage taken followed by a near instant kill. It is it the job of your DK to know encounters well enough to know when/if DS pooling is necessary and to use proper communication with your healers to warn them of incoming burst damage.

  7. #347
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unholycrushe View Post
    He's camped in frost gear as other's have said but his itemization/reforges look relatively on point for frost so I'm going to assume he's properly prioritizing mastery.



    Having threat issues is weird to me. Is he having trouble with initial burst threat, ae threat, mid encounter adds, or tank swaps?

    For burst threat: ask him about his rotation. Tell him to use empower rune weapon as an offensive cooldown on pull if necessary. This will allow him to open with outbreak -> DS -> DS -> rune strike spam -> RE -> repeat. Unless your dps massively outgear him there is no chance he will lose agro. Once vengeance kicks in he should be perfect.


    For tank swapping the off tank needs to slow down on damage or switch stances/forms since a 100 k vengeance tank will easily peel agro over a tank with 0 vengeance. I've had issues on fights where my OT doesn't slow down on dps and will peel agro almost immediately. This is your druid's fault not the DK's.

    The only threat/dps issues a DK should ever have is mass AE tanking since a DK is forced to prioritize DS for survivability over blood boil spam for agro. I've rarely had an issue with ae threat even under those circumstance but my dps will lag behind other tanks that can freely spam their AE abilities.


    In regards to survivability: There is a very good chance that he does not properly understand the encounter's you are attempting. The primary factor that distinguishes a good and bad DK tank is the ability to properly forecast the next 15 seconds of a fight and know when runes/abilities should be pooled for burst damage. DK's have very little in their arsenal to properly react to burst damage and instead it is their job to prevent it preemptively. This means using VB/IBF prior to a burst ability hitting, having a death pact macro ready for unexpected burst, and pooling death runes for a double DS prior to tank killing attacks (and even 10 blood tap charges for a 3rd if necessary).


    I'm going to use horridon as an example: Threat is of minor importance for a tank on horridon compared to survival. As a result, it is a blood DK's job to focus on rune management to always have a double or triple DS shield up prior to each triple puncture. Furthermore as he reaches higher stacks he should be using a major CD (IBF, VB, bone shield, trinkets, etc) to give more room for error in surviving. Playing like this may lower the DK's dps by a small margin due to rune pooling but it will make the fight much smoother on your healers since your DK tank will make damage much more constant instead of a roller coaster of 0 damage taken followed by a near instant kill. It is it the job of your DK to know encounters well enough to know when/if DS pooling is necessary and to use proper communication with your healers to warn them of incoming burst damage.
    Thank you for the reply mate, i hope that your infor helps our tank to be better

  8. #348
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unholycrushe View Post
    I'm going to use horridon as an example: Threat is of minor importance for a tank on horridon compared to survival. As a result, it is a blood DK's job to focus on rune management to always have a double or triple DS shield up prior to each triple puncture. Furthermore as he reaches higher stacks he should be using a major CD (IBF, VB, bone shield, trinkets, etc) to give more room for error in surviving. Playing like this may lower the DK's dps by a small margin due to rune pooling but it will make the fight much smoother on your healers since your DK tank will make damage much more constant instead of a roller coaster of 0 damage taken followed by a near instant kill. It is it the job of your DK to know encounters well enough to know when/if DS pooling is necessary and to use proper communication with your healers to warn them of incoming burst damage.
    Your Horridon example is a perfect example why I LOVE Runic Corruption: You can simply hold on to a full DS without sacrificing rune regen - in other words you ALWAYS have a DS for every Triple Puncture. On top of that: you can pull great dps.

    EDIT: My Question about expertise hardcap for DKs was stupid: DS / RS can't be parried, thus only Heart Strike, Melee hits and Soul Reaper (phys.) are even suceptible to parrys (and thus hardcapping exp). I don't know how I even got to that idea- way too much stats sacrificed for an abysmal gain.
    Last edited by rhapso; 2013-03-19 at 11:50 AM.
    What doesn't kill me gives me Vengeance.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...psody/advanced

    DK Guide to LK 25 Heroic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixa6Tyqd-oY

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by rhapso View Post
    Your Horridon example is a perfect example why I LOVE Runic Corruption: You can simply hold on to a full DS without sacrificing rune regen - in other words you ALWAYS have a DS for every Triple Puncture. On top of that: you can pull great dps.
    BT is actually even better for that. BT is better for any timeable large hit, like thrash/dread thrash on sha, OA on blade lord, so on so forth. With RC you can guarantee at least 1 DS for every puncture. With proper use of BT you can guarantee 2. (you can actually make RC guarantee 2 as well, but it would require a lot more wasted resources.)

  10. #350
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    True, but with BT you lose out on alot of damage and that's what I actually meant. I could've written it clearer. What I meant is that you can push high sustained DPS on top of being able to hold on to 1 DS without sacrificing survival or damage. Horridon is a great example because it's great to have a DS for every Triple Puncture and also do alot of damage to Horridon. Low stack TPs won't be deadly if you hold on to 1 DS and the higher stacks are usually with cooldowns anyway.
    What doesn't kill me gives me Vengeance.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...psody/advanced

    DK Guide to LK 25 Heroic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixa6Tyqd-oY

  11. #351
    You can hold two death strikes with BT without losing damage, one with RC. You can hold three death strikes with BT if you are willing to lose damage, two with RC. The damage gain from using RC over BT is minor, and could easily be offset by using more dps stats (while using BT).

  12. #352
    posted this on EJ. I will add it to the maximizing tank dps section soon.


    DPS analysis for using DC instead of RS as a rune dump at high levels of AP after the recent RS buff.

    RC's benefit := ppm*(.3*DS+.3*HS)
    where RC's ppm is about 7.46 when using RS

    and the gain of using DC instead of RS := .75*apm*DC-apm*RS, with apm = 16.6 (from patchwerk sim)

    so to find the point at which the damage difference between DC and RS outweighs the loss of t5 talents through the higher RP cost of DC we set it up like this:

    loss of t5 talents = damage of DC over whole fight - damage of RS over whole fight

    Put in the numbers (and assuming an ilvl 517 shinka)

    .25*(7.46*(.3*((19562+(x/14)*3.3)*1.15+681)*1.3*1.04*(1-.3209)+.3*((19562+(x/14)*3.3)*1.85+923)*1.04*(1-.3209))) = .75*16.6*(1133+.51*x)-16.6(((19562+(x/14)*3.3)*1.6)*1.04*(1-.3209))

    solve that beast for x and you get x = 234.7k, meaning at AP levels above 234.7k it is a dps gain to use death coil as a your main runic power dump in place of rune strike for an ilvl 517 2h weapon.

    Now lets look at it with Death Siphon involved:
    RC's benefit := ppm*(.6*DSi+.3*HS)
    everything else stays the same, including weapon ilvl.

    .25*(7.46*(.3*((19562+(x/14)*3.3)*1.15+681)*1.3*1.04*(1-.3209)+.6*(7478+.34x))) = .75*16.6*(1133+.51*x)-16.6(((19562+(x/14)*3.3)*1.6)*1.04*(1-.3209))
    solve for x and you get AP needed = 264.9k

    so it's still a gain, just requiring a bit more AP.

    It goes without saying that this is a survivability loss (slower Death Strike return from t5), so keep that in mind if you decide to use it in progression.

    Here is the same math applied to different ilvl weapons:

    ilvl 517 : 264.9k AP
    ilvl 522 : 277.8k AP
    ilvl 528 : 294.0k AP
    ilvl 535 : 314.0k AP
    ilvl 541 : 332.3k AP

  13. #353
    Now that my dk started to get slightly better geared i'm wondering if i should re-gem my stamina into mastery.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ktrak/advanced
    I'm aiming at ToT contenct which seems to be fairly "predictable spike" which makes me want mastery, but at the same time the damage by itself makes me question if i would be better off with just a bit more health (plus i feel like DK's scale great with stamina due to all % of max health abilities).

    Also, if it would be better to switch to mastery, would the mastery meta (+run speed) be viable ? (Which is odd seeing how +2% armor seems fairly weak due to the lack of shield)

  14. #354
    question, going to valor cap this week so need to buy something or I am just going to waste valor the next week

    only honored atm with the shado pan guys, so I ahve the option of bracers, legs or feet
    already bought the 522 trinket and ring and have better 522 neck and cloak

    the obvious choice so far seems the hands, parry and decent amount of mastery, compared to my tier dodge and hit ones
    problem is I loose the 4 piece bonus, bracers is another option, a lower increase but doesn't mess with my bonus

    kinda leaning towards the hands atm, I will have to get rid of the tier bonus sooner or latter and might as well just get over it, is it even that good? would some 300 stamina and 300 mastery more offset it anyway? not doing any kind of crazy progression, just 4/12 atm

    edit:
    armory if it matters
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nosya/advanced

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    question, going to valor cap this week so need to buy something or I am just going to waste valor the next week

    only honored atm with the shado pan guys, so I ahve the option of bracers, legs or feet
    already bought the 522 trinket and ring and have better 522 neck and cloak

    the obvious choice so far seems the hands, parry and decent amount of mastery, compared to my tier dodge and hit ones
    problem is I loose the 4 piece bonus, bracers is another option, a lower increase but doesn't mess with my bonus

    kinda leaning towards the hands atm, I will have to get rid of the tier bonus sooner or latter and might as well just get over it, is it even that good? would some 300 stamina and 300 mastery more offset it anyway? not doing any kind of crazy progression, just 4/12 atm

    edit:
    armory if it matters
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nosya/advanced
    The 4p bonus is worth 10% Mastery, so if you gain 10% of your current Mastery from losing it, you are good.
    Call to arms, the trumpets sound
    Hand puppets storm the base, flags up now cannons rage
    All clowns head for the rear, slingshots fire to the air
    Toy horses start the charge, Robot chessmen standing guard
    Crossfire to the marionettes, Slip into the edge of death...

  16. #356
    I'm curious there's no discussion regarding Runic Empowerment as a choice in lv75 talent. RE can be manipulated to a degree so next rune you get is part of DS pair. I suppose I just got used to how blood tank work back in WotlK and not sure why this is not a valid choice.

  17. #357
    The reason RE is not an optimal choice is that it requires you to put both FU pairs down in order to get any runes back. And with a 45% chance to proc and requiring at least two procs to get a full FU pair back there is a 1-(.45*.45+.55*.45) = 55% chance that you don't get a pair back if you are dumping at least 90 RP for three rune strikes. If you have only enough RP for two rune strikes, then you are looking at a 1-(.45*.45) = 79.6% of not getting a full FU pair back, which means you can count on it leaving you with a useless single death rune unless you have at least 90 RP to burn, and even then it's less than a 50% chance to get the pair. Have fun trying to wait until at least 90 RP to dump runic power without capping.

    TL;DR RE really messes with DS timing, and proper timing is ALWAYS the priority, even over raw throughput.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 02:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Omertocracy View Post
    The 4p bonus is worth 10% Mastery, so if you gain 10% of your current Mastery from losing it, you are good.
    Well the EH from more stamina/armor factors into it as well, so it doesn't quite take that much mastery. It comes down to personal preference and how much you value EH versus mitigation. I lost my t14 4pc within the first week of normal mode clears, but then again we cleared all 12 in that week so i had a lot of upgrades thrown my way.
    Last edited by Reniat; 2013-03-26 at 07:22 AM.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    TL;DR RE really messes with DS timing, and proper timing is ALWAYS the priority, even over raw throughput.
    It's worth noting that a decent amount of the reason this wasn't a huge problem before is because we had Blood Tap. Even if we didn't get both runes back, every 30 seconds we could complete the square and get the other rune back anyways.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    It's worth noting that a decent amount of the reason this wasn't a huge problem before is because we had Blood Tap. Even if we didn't get both runes back, every 30 seconds we could complete the square and get the other rune back anyways.
    Tbh. that wasn't even how Blood Tap was used - the best part about it was having a 5th Death Rune with about 60% uptime.
    Last edited by Nillo; 2013-03-26 at 04:08 PM.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  20. #360
    Excuse me, I was wondering what runeforge you all use?
    EJ says to go with Stoneskin gargoyle if you need more EH, and if not use Swordshattering. Spell Shattering for heavy magic fights like Lei Shi or Fallen Crusader for DPS.

    That all makes sense, but I saw Nillo say that stoneskin was questionable and that Fallen Crusader gave a better package?
    Is the Fallen Crusader heal meaningful or something? You get more parry from Swordshattering.
    I'm just starting out so I'm using stoneskin until i get enough health.

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