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  1. #41
    Bloodsail Admiral MKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    Ok let me try and understand....

    So there's no trinity, instead everyone is a DPS with some survival abilities. Most notably the ability to roll 2x in a fixed amount of time. So what we get is a situation where we try and avoid enemy attacks while doing as much dps as possible. If dmg is ranged, sidestep. If damageis aoe, move out. If dmg is melee, kite.

    What makes an encounter harder here would be how hard it is to avoid/dodge/kite the enemy attacks.

    Did I get that right?
    No for explorable modes you're probably going to need someone to focus on group support all classes have support capabilities.
    There's also bosses that someone has to offtank because if they get to close to the other boss they get more powerful.
    Also more than I could possibly explain in the thread.
    The higher level explorable modes require the same if not more skill and coordination than other games heroic raids.

  2. #42
    Well clearly there will be some gimmick fights and synergy coordination is always useful. But the essence of the PVE coop play is unchanged right? Avoid dmg by sidestep/moveout/kite and maintain dps?

  3. #43
    About the boss.

    You are doing it wrong. I have killed him, and he is far from imposible, however the way you describe him he does become imposible or clsoe to it.

    Here's the trick - The pull can be easily dodged. He does a rather obvious(Once you get used to it tho, took me about 10 times of seeing him do it) animation with his sword in the air, then the pulling hook goes off. You just need the right timing. You can also LoS it, especialy useful when doing the initial pull. also, it helps to split team in 2/3 with 2 in boss room trolling boss and 3 below the stairs kill the both ads.

    I completed the shadow eater path of catacombs explorable with complete pickup group in 2 hours with some nice wiping. it's mainly figuring out what to do generaly and then applying your skill at not dying. Compared to HC raiding? I have no idea, best i've done is 7/12 HC ICC. I would say that this is a bit easier. You don't really progress on fights, you hit or miss. and so far, in AC, hitting hasn't been that hard. I actualy wish the dungeons were harder. Or leave tham at where they are and remove waypoints.

    Ohh, and while I'm on it. Waypoints being alowed during boss fights is no huge deal. You can ress people anyway, so its either 1m of fighting with 4 or 15s of fighting with 3.

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKing View Post
    No for explorable modes you're probably going to need someone to focus on group support all classes have support capabilities.
    There's also bosses that someone has to offtank because if they get to close to the other boss they get more powerful.
    Also more than I could possibly explain in the thread.
    The higher level explorable modes require the same if not more skill and coordination than other games heroic raids.
    Silly Mking!! those bosses are in the easy version of the instance!! (there may be some more in the hard mode don't know only died horribly in one of the paths.... granted 4/5ths of the group were only lv 33...) And you don't need someone to focus on group support, when me and my friends did it all of us had a little bit of support and it worked out great! we had two guardians focused mainly on offense (but they're guardians so they will be bringing support whether they want to or not), and then I was going around with my two spirits and warhorn as a ranger, then we had a thief that was support no idea how... but they were lol, and we had a lightning ele who also knew how to use their other attunements which was awesome!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by MKing View Post
    ArenaNet said they wont nerf their dungeons, which is awesome. Explorable mode dungeons are meant for organized groups. And if you think AC explorable mode is hard wait til you get to the higher level ones.
    This.

    Remember that GW2 is a skill game... If you had issues with AC you probably need to find people who are better, or become better at the game yourself. People who think this game is easy because it gives you only 5 weapon buttons and 5 chosen skills are ... dead wrong.

  6. #46
    Bloodsail Admiral MKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    Well clearly there will be some gimmick fights and synergy coordination is always useful. But the essence of the PVE coop play is unchanged right? Avoid dmg by sidestep/moveout/kite and maintain dps?
    I'm pretty sure there's some unavoidable damage.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-28 at 01:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Silly Mking!! those bosses are in the easy version of the instance!! (there may be some more in the hard mode don't know only died horribly in one of the paths.... granted 4/5ths of the group were only lv 33...) And you don't need someone to focus on group support, when me and my friends did it all of us had a little bit of support and it worked out great! we had two guardians focused mainly on offense (but they're guardians so they will be bringing support whether they want to or not), and then I was going around with my two spirits and warhorn as a ranger, then we had a thief that was support no idea how... but they were lol, and we had a lightning ele who also knew how to use their other attunements which was awesome!
    I wasn't talking about story modes and I specifically said higher level ones. Keep in mind the devs and the tester's never beat the level 80 explorable mode dungeons.

  7. #47
    I tried AC story mode... tried. With a PuG, lowest was lv37. It was a hell, i cant begin to imagine how Explorable must be.

    Firstly, people ofcourse needed to addept. The full-on Zerg DPS builds that work great in the world when running from one event to the next, doesnt work so well in Dungeons. When you realize that debuffs like cripples, snares and weakness are worth more then raw damage, things get a little easier.
    Secondly, conditions. You get swarmed in conditions all over the place. Being able to clear them is paramount to success because a single Burning from a typical mob can take off as much as 50% of your total healthpool all on its own.

    But then come the problems with the mechanics of the dungeons.

    Areas get carpetbombed in AoE by mobs, where litterally more then 75% of the room isnt safe to stand. Matter that is made much worst by the insanely high damage everything does. Even casual mobs can drop down an AoE that can oneshot you. And you dont get much warning, these elementalist do some Firestorm and its instant. When you see the red circle, you are already taking damage and getting Burning. Thats 70% of your health gone even if you dodge right away. Less if you can get rid of the burning.

    And then there are the seemingly attacks that are as far as i can tell nothing short of deus ex machina. They happen, and you just have to accept you just got downed by Lord knows what. Maybe you couldve seen it comming, if the fights werent so saturated with spell effects and flashy stuff.
    It took me three attempts before i even realized that a certain boss throws small lightning orbs. In the heat of battle and sparks flying all over the screen, thats hard if not impossible to see.

    And even if you could see it comming, you couldnt dodge because you just had to dodge twice to avoid other attacks. Abilities get thrown at you faster then you can feasibly avoid them, or even register them. And everything is a killer, there are no "oh, big charged attack THAT i need to dodge" because everything is a big attack that you really need to dodge.

    Dodge this, knock that back, use your heal, slow him, and kite her all at the same time. And this was on easy mode.
    Last edited by terrahero; 2012-08-28 at 02:03 PM.

  8. #48
    Bloodsail Admiral MKing's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but ive done AC story and you can dodge the elementalist attack as well as most the others. You can also dodge the boss that pulls you in. You just have to dodge fast. This game doesn't hand hold you and give you an easy amount of time to dodge or interupt an ability. You have to be fast.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    About the boss.

    You are doing it wrong. I have killed him, and he is far from imposible, however the way you describe him he does become imposible or clsoe to it.

    Here's the trick - The pull can be easily dodged. He does a rather obvious(Once you get used to it tho, took me about 10 times of seeing him do it) animation with his sword in the air, then the pulling hook goes off. You just need the right timing. You can also LoS it, especialy useful when doing the initial pull. also, it helps to split team in 2/3 with 2 in boss room trolling boss and 3 below the stairs kill the both ads.

    I completed the shadow eater path of catacombs explorable with complete pickup group in 2 hours with some nice wiping. it's mainly figuring out what to do generaly and then applying your skill at not dying. Compared to HC raiding? I have no idea, best i've done is 7/12 HC ICC. I would say that this is a bit easier. You don't really progress on fights, you hit or miss. and so far, in AC, hitting hasn't been that hard. I actualy wish the dungeons were harder. Or leave tham at where they are and remove waypoints.

    Ohh, and while I'm on it. Waypoints being alowed during boss fights is no huge deal. You can ress people anyway, so its either 1m of fighting with 4 or 15s of fighting with 3.
    This. Everything has a trick. Figuring it out is part of the fun. One of the biggest complaints about most MMOs and games is that they're too easy and take little time to beat. I'm tired of hand-holding, and others should be too.

    I see a lot of "It's imposible! And don't tell me it isn't, or that I need to learn to play, because I've been there and done it!" ... well it's very possible, and it's mostly a learn to play thing.

    Note the word "LEARN", you're never done learning to play, you can be a pro gamer and there are still new experiences that you won't know how to tackle right away. Even if you consider yourself good, you're not good at all until you concede that sometimes you just have to figure out the trick. When you realize that is when you can consider yourself a true pro.
    Last edited by The Batman; 2012-08-28 at 02:58 PM.

  10. #50
    Brewmaster Zombina's Avatar
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    They do look hard but remember that these dungeons aren't required gear farming experiences so you'll either be doing them for the challenge [which seems appparent enough], prestige or cosmetic gear. All of those reasons should come with a steep learning curve in the dungeons, I can't wait^^

  11. #51
    i like how people try the instance for the first time, likely with randoms, without vent or something like that (which is usually needed for hard / no guide stuff) and fail then just give up and complain.. this applies to other games aswell and even the recent "PVE" mode in TF2 mann vs machine.

    People whining about it being too hard. well yes when you refuse to go something which benefits the group rather than just selfish preferences (double sniper non jarate / sydney with 200 ping) then the group will likely fail. Its usually not because its too hard but because the group hasnt got the right set up or just simply not good enough.
    Last edited by Insanoflex; 2012-08-28 at 03:12 PM.
    Dictated but not read.

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKing View Post
    I'm pretty sure there's some unavoidable damage.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-28 at 01:56 PM ----------



    I wasn't talking about story modes and I specifically said higher level ones. Keep in mind the devs and the tester's never beat the level 80 explorable mode dungeons.
    Auto attacks by bosses aren't unavoidable but should be eaten instead of wasting a dodge/evasion skill to avoid

    And I thought the devs said at least one group made up of 5 of every prof cleared them all IE 5 thieves, or 5 rangers etc.

    PS: I know there are devs who have said that THEY haven't cleared the 80 ones, but I thought at least a handful did
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  13. #53
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    I know that you are the biggest GW2 fanatic and zealot on this forum, probably, but have you actually done any of the recent, or rather, Firelands/Tier 11 heroics when they were relevant.
    I didn't quit raiding until Heroic mode Dragon Soul, and yes - I think they were all too ridiculously easy pre-nerf. Could complete Firelands in an hour. That's too fucking easy.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I didn't quit raiding until Heroic mode Dragon Soul, and yes - I think they were all too ridiculously easy pre-nerf. Could complete Firelands in an hour. That's too fucking easy.
    Relevant I think he means FL HC pre nerf, I really doubt you killed Ragnaros HC before any nerfs came in, even the first one, unless of course you are from Paragon, they were the only to do it before the first nerf came, then Method after a slight nerf and then more nerfs came followed by many kills.
    Last edited by Kazlofski; 2012-08-28 at 03:49 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlofski View Post
    Relevant I think he means FL HC pre nerf, I really doubt you killed Ragnaros HC before any nerfs came in, even the first one, unless of course you are from Paragon, they were the only to do it before the first nerf came, then Method after a slight nerf and then more nerfs came followed by many kills.
    haha this.
    Dictated but not read.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Remember that GW2 is a skill game...
    So, please tell me of this skill that allowes me to survive when we pull a group and I get insta stunned and AoEd to death before the stun wears off.

    THIS are things that are not hard but simply unfair. I just completed the normal version for the first time. I like a challenge, but if the challenge only consists of graveyard zerging because you can get insta gibbed without any reason that's not hard, that's just plain overtuned and unfair. Yeah, dodge it - as said above, tell me how I should dodge stuff like that.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Marston View Post
    So, please tell me of this skill that allowes me to survive when we pull a group and I get insta stunned and AoEd to death before the stun wears off.

    THIS are things that are not hard but simply unfair. I just completed the normal version for the first time. I like a challenge, but if the challenge only consists of graveyard zerging because you can get insta gibbed without any reason that's not hard, that's just plain overtuned and unfair. Yeah, dodge it - as said above, tell me how I should dodge stuff like that.
    Blind, Stability, Protection, Stun breakers. You gotta have them all on your group for these situations.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Marston View Post
    So, please tell me of this skill that allowes me to survive when we pull a group and I get insta stunned and AoEd to death before the stun wears off.

    THIS are things that are not hard but simply unfair. I just completed the normal version for the first time. I like a challenge, but if the challenge only consists of graveyard zerging because you can get insta gibbed without any reason that's not hard, that's just plain overtuned and unfair. Yeah, dodge it - as said above, tell me how I should dodge stuff like that.
    Support casts, defence buffs prior to major attacks, interrupts, etc.

    It's not overtuned, it's just hard. No need to graveyard zerg if your entire group is helping each other rather than just helping themselves.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porco View Post
    Blind, Stability, Protection, Stun breakers. You gotta have them all on your group for these situations.
    The thing is, I am talking about story mode of the first dungeon. And you basically don't need those things beforehand. And then suddenly asking the whole group to have this weapon for that skill and these skills just to be able to beat story mode without graveyard zerging... at last for story mode of the first dungeon that's too much, imo.

  20. #60
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlofski View Post
    Relevant I think he means FL HC pre nerf, I really doubt you killed Ragnaros HC before any nerfs came in, even the first one, unless of course you are from Paragon, they were the only to do it before the first nerf came, then Method after a slight nerf and then more nerfs came followed by many kills.
    The fact that only Paragon did HC Rag pre-nerf doesn't really mean anything to me. O_o

    Nobody did a certain AQ boss pre-nerf, either.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-08-28 at 05:00 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

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