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  1. #381
    best race for a (horde) tank is Pandaren - double food buff can mean anything from 830 Stam, to 400 Mastery, to 600 Expertise etc etc. Only problem is, if you die you lose the buff - So dont die. Panda buff gives versatility between different fights, but if you want to maximise dps, maybe the others are better.

    Trolls get a mini bloodlust (heroism), to add to the other guys list.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehdilgerer View Post
    best race for a (horde) tank is Pandaren - double food buff can mean anything from 830 Stam, to 400 Mastery, to 600 Expertise etc etc. Only problem is, if you die you lose the buff - So dont die. Panda buff gives versatility between different fights, but if you want to maximise dps, maybe the others are better.

    Trolls get a mini bloodlust (heroism), to add to the other guys list.
    You always lose your food buff if you die though. That's not specific to pandaren.

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  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    You always lose your food buff if you die though. That's not specific to pandaren.
    Obviously, but you also lose your racial when you die. That is different from other races. For instance, you wouldn't lose your 2% miss if you were Nelf.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ochron View Post
    Obviously, but you also lose your racial when you die. That is different from other races. For instance, you wouldn't lose your 2% miss if you were Nelf.
    The passive still always active, you just don't gain the benefits until you've had your buff food.

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  5. #385
    High Overlord Kanx's Avatar
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    Always enjoy reading this thread - every expansion.

    Chiming in to say thanks.
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  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    The passive still always active, you just don't gain the benefits until you've had your buff food.
    Which is why you lost the racial bonus

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ochron View Post
    Which is why you lost the racial bonus
    You don't lose a racial. It's always there. Same as you don't lose bouncy whenever you're not falling from somewhere high.

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  8. #388
    Are you seriously trying to be this difficult on purpose? If you're a panda and you die. You lose your racial benefit. There really is no arguing it.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ochron View Post
    Are you seriously trying to be this difficult on purpose? If you're a panda and you die. You lose your racial benefit. There really is no arguing it.
    Actually was going to ask you the same thing. Not only can you not lose a passive racial but you're actually warning people that they don't retain their food buffs after a raid wipe. If you want to be that basic about this guide, go ahead, but that has nothing to do with the pandaren racial, and everything to do with food buffs, which are universal last time I checked.

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  10. #390
    Tone it down guys, this argument is fucking stupid.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    Tone it down guys, this argument is fucking stupid.
    Couldn't agree more!!

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  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    Actually was going to ask you the same thing. Not only can you not lose a passive racial but you're actually warning people that they don't retain their food buffs after a raid wipe. If you want to be that basic about this guide, go ahead, but that has nothing to do with the pandaren racial, and everything to do with food buffs, which are universal last time I checked.
    I'm not talking about a wipe. Rather, I'm talking about if you're in the middle of a fight and get rezzed you will no longer have your bonus from your food buff. This is universal. However, if you're a Panda, you lose the buff (that everyone loses) and the special part of that buff that is your racial bonus until you're out of combat again. In the perfect world, this is nothing to worry about since you shouldn't be dying, but if you do die it is rather unfortunate.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    Just to add a couple from the alliance side:

    Dwarves have the follow two that sticks out
    Stoneform -> Removes all poison, disease and bleed effects and reduces all damage taken by 10% for 8 sec
    Mace Specialization -> Expertise with Maces and Two-Handed Maces increased by 1%.

    They also get %1 resistance to frost damage but that hasn't been important for a long time.

    Night Elves get
    Quickness -> Increased your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 2%.

    Though the increased dodge chance of night elves isn't very attractive in Mop, it was very interesting during Cata.

    I would say, out of the alliance races, the pandaren and dwarf racials are the most attractive abilities for tanking right now. Ofc, neither is going to make or break the game for you but if you are looking to min-max, those two are the way to go.

    A quick note on the stoneform of dwarves, it does not necessarily remove all bleed effects. I remember there was a certain mob in Firelands, back in Cata, which applied a bleed and stoneform did not remove it. So take it with a pinch of salt. Otherwise though, it is a great racial for tanks.
    I would like to chime in to reclaim NE as still the best. Pandaren is +415 sta for most people. Almost nobody it's going to go with a different food, food being the worst conversion between stamina/stats (you get more stamina/stat from it than flasks, cloak enchant and specially gemming. So if you actually don't need stamina, remove the enchants, gems, trinkets and flasks before considering it).

    So you choose between +415 sta or 2% dodge not tied to DR. The more dodge you have the better is the racial, but let's say you have 10-11% or so. The NE racial it's like ~1850 dodge rating. Avoidance may have fallen in disgrace, but I don't value it as 1 dodge = 0.22 sta, that's for sure. It's worth much more to me.

    If you offspec a lot you can consider go panda, if you don't, NE is still going strong. And about dwarfs... well, the expertise hasn't been a factor since t11, they seem to favor swords as bis tanking weapons to be sincere (which I'm glad of). If we had a mace for tanking, it will be 340 expertise worth anyways. I suppose Stoneskin is nice to have, but I won't value it more than a naaru. The NE stat boost, plus the occasional shenanigan you can pull off with Shadowmeld in pve, trumps it all for me.
    Last edited by Espada; 2012-11-30 at 05:55 PM.

  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    I would like to chime in to reclaim NE as still the best. Pandaren is +415 sta for most people. Almost nobody it's going to go with a different food, food being the worst conversion between stamina/stats (you get more stamina/stat from it than flasks, cloak enchant and specially gemming. So if you actually don't need stamina, remove the enchants, gems, trinkets and flasks before considering it).
    You can get the 450 stamina food without too much trouble, I think, and does not require you to be uber hardcore or anything. That is a total of 900 stamina with the panda racial, which is more than 3x stamina gems (not counting JC gems) and the cloak enchant combined. The extra 450 stamina is only slightly shy of the same benefit you get from enchanting and blacksmithing. So I wouldn't call it insignificant, and like you said, it is a flexible benefit which you can turn into strength if you ever need to use an OS, which I personally often have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    So you choose between +415 sta or 2% dodge not tied to DR. The more dodge you have the better is the racial, but let's say you have 10-11% or so. The NE racial it's like ~1850 dodge rating. Avoidance may have fallen in disgrace, but I don't value it as 1 dodge = 0.22 sta, that's for sure.
    While I do agree that dodge is far from useless (think mine is around 8% right now), it only becomes attractive if you actually invest in it. The fact that the %2 from the NE is DR-free is nice but it only really makes sense to pick it up if you are going to use an avoidance heavy build, and can't think of any reason why you would want to. Yes, an avoidance heavy build reduces most damage taken overall but it also creates spiky damage and tanking, at this time, like it was already back in Cata, is more about smoothing out the damage. With active mitigation you can accomplish a lot more by just playing your class real well.

    It is also important to notice that it is %2 dodge, not parry. Parry and mastery, not to mention hit and expertise, are all ahead in our stat priorities. Dodge itself has a ridiculous DR curve and doesn't proc revenge, like parry does. If anything, dodge is usually always the first stat that we reforge out of, and in a situation like that, I find it difficult to justify picking NE over either dwarf or pandas, both which imo provide more valuable and flexible benefits.

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  15. #395
    I was think more about the "choice" of using 200 mastery food (the highest there is) or 275/300 str or 275/300 exp instead of 415/450 stamina. That's why I compared to other options of exchanging sta for stats and said it was the worst one (with gems you get 1.5 stat for stamina, flask 1 stat for stamina, enchant 0.9 sta for 1 stamina, food and trinkets 2/3 stat for 1 stamina). There is flexibility, but I will very much remove my sta from other places before thinking of changing my food. The 275 expertise is very cheap when/if some of you reach that point. And about the 450 sta food, I doubt many people out there are using consistently. 35 sta can't justify the cost; and I like my min/max like anyone else, but it was not the point.

    Anyhow, about the dodge. Dodge resets revenge just as parry. The only difference comes from not having the +50% damage after a reset if you glyph it. The DR are much harsher, but that doesn't mean you must get away from dodge, it's just there to compensate what your str does to you parry. With my stats I'm getting 1% dodge = 931 rating, 1% parry = 971 rating, 1% parry = 1033 str, so I should favor dodge over parry right now. If you are simply reforging away all your dodge, you should check if you are not overdoing it.

    So... I don't think you need an avoidance build to favor 1850 dodge rating over 415 stamina or 340 expertise (if the next tier have 1h mace). If I was offered a prismatic gem with one of those 3 stats I know what I would take, while using a hit/exp/mastery build. I'm more smooth and receive overall less damage with 2% dodge that with 415 sta, truth be told.
    Last edited by Espada; 2012-12-01 at 01:33 AM.

  16. #396
    Smooth and less overall damage are two different strategies.

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    I was think more about the "choice" of using 200 mastery food (the highest there is) or 275/300 str or 275/300 exp instead of 415/450 stamina. That's why I compared to other options of exchanging sta for stats and said it was the worst one (with gems you get 1.5 stat for stamina, flask 1 stat for stamina, enchant 0.9 sta for 1 stamina, food and trinkets 2/3 stat for 1 stamina). There is flexibility, but I will very much remove my sta from other places before thinking of changing my food. The 275 expertise is very cheap when/if some of you reach that point. And about the 450 sta food, I doubt many people out there are using consistently. 35 sta can't justify the cost; and I like my min/max like anyone else, but it was not the point.
    I think the presumption here is that you are prioritizing mastery over stamina, which a lot of tanks aren't. There is a lot to be said about preferring stamina over mastery, and the least isn't the fact that it is difficult to gather enough mastery to make it anymore rng than avoidance is right now, especially if you prioritize 7.5% hit/15% expertise. I think Theck wrote an article about the subject, not too long ago. Suggest you take a look at it.

    Ofc, this is only the first tier of raiding and with more stats the state of mastery is going to improve. But for this tier, I definitely favor stamina. As for the 450 food, I don't really see the problem. I consistently grow and cook the max stat foods, each week, for both my MS and OS, and don't need to spend a dime on it (although sometimes I do because I'm just too darn lazy but that's besides the point ).

    The farm is particularly good for this purpose and it only takes minimum amount of time to fish and farm rest of the mats.

    That's just me ofc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Anyhow, about the dodge. Dodge resets revenge just as parry. The only difference comes from not having the +50% damage after a reset if you glyph it. The DR are much harsher, but that doesn't mean you must get away from dodge, it's just there to compensate what your str does to you parry. With my stats I'm getting 1% dodge = 931 rating, 1% parry = 971 rating, 1% parry = 1033 str, so I should favor dodge over parry right now. If you are simply reforging away all your dodge, you should check if you are not overdoing it.
    Ahh yes, my bad. Was thinking about the glyph and talking nonsense. But still, if you're pushing for max DPS, the +50% damage increase is significant, and I didn't say you have to get away from dodge. You just naturally will, due to how our stat priorities work. To balance the DR between dodge and parry, you will want to have a lot more parry than dodge, which means to get more hit/exp and mastery you will always reforge out of dodge first. Again, this is outlined in Theck's articles as well as in the guide itself.

    The notion that we're doing everything we can to reforge out of dodge, in many cases preferring items with no dodge at all, and yet favoring a racial just to get more dodge seems really backwards to me. Not to mention, the differential between dodge and parry only becomes more aggravated the more avoidance you get. As for overdoing it; I'm not actually sure you even can over do it. Case in point, I've not done the best job, looking after the optimal difference between dodge and parry, and I've been simply prioritizing hit/exp (now both hard capped), and the rest going to mastery, to get more smooth damage intake in between shield blocks. Yet, every time I check my dodge and parry, I find that I'm pretty close to the optimal range and that's simply because the difference is so huge, and like I said, it will get bigger with better gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    So... I don't think you need an avoidance build to favor 1850 dodge rating over 415 stamina or 340 expertise (if the next tier have 1h mace). If I was offered a prismatic gem with one of those 3 stats I know what I would take, while using a hit/exp/mastery build. I'm more smooth and receive overall less damage with 2% dodge that with 415 sta, truth be told.
    Bit a moot comment, considering stamina doesn't mitigate damage in any shape or form.

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  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    Smooth and less overall damage are two different strategies.
    Yes, sta is good for the first and avoidance for the second. But when an option outstat the other with a x5, it becomes better for both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    I think the presumption here is that you are prioritizing mastery over stamina, which a lot of tanks aren't. There is a lot to be said about preferring stamina over mastery, and the least isn't the fact that it is difficult to gather enough mastery to make it anymore rng than avoidance is right now, especially if you prioritize 7.5% hit/15% expertise. I think Theck wrote an article about the subject, not too long ago. Suggest you take a look at it.

    Ofc, this is only the first tier of raiding and with more stats the state of mastery is going to improve. But for this tier, I definitely favor stamina. As for the 450 food, I don't really see the problem. I consistently grow and cook the max stat foods, each week, for both my MS and OS, and don't need to spend a dime on it (although sometimes I do because I'm just too darn lazy but that's besides the point ).

    The farm is particularly good for this purpose and it only takes minimum amount of time to fish and farm rest of the mats.

    That's just me ofc.
    Er... not, I'm not assuming it. You are saying that panda gives more flexibility, and I say how so, and present the alternatives of food, which you won't be taking. And me neither.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post

    Ahh yes, my bad. Was thinking about the glyph and talking nonsense. But still, if you're pushing for max DPS, the +50% damage increase is significant, and I didn't say you have to get away from dodge. You just naturally will, due to how our stat priorities work. To balance the DR between dodge and parry, you will want to have a lot more parry than dodge, which means to get more hit/exp and mastery you will always reforge out of dodge first. Again, this is outlined in Theck's articles as well as in the guide itself.

    The notion that we're doing everything we can to reforge out of dodge, in many cases preferring items with no dodge at all, and yet favoring a racial just to get more dodge seems really backwards to me. Not to mention, the differential between dodge and parry only becomes more aggravated the more avoidance you get. As for overdoing it; I'm not actually sure you even can over do it. Case in point, I've not done the best job, looking after the optimal difference between dodge and parry, and I've been simply prioritizing hit/exp (now both hard capped), and the rest going to mastery, to get more smooth damage intake in between shield blocks. Yet, every time I check my dodge and parry, I find that I'm pretty close to the optimal range and that's simply because the difference is so huge, and like I said, it will get bigger with better gear.

    So... I don't think you need an avoidance build to favor 1850 dodge rating over 415 stamina or 340 expertise (if the next tier have 1h mace). If I was offered a prismatic gem with one of those 3 stats I know what I would take, while using a hit/exp/mastery build. I'm more smooth and receive overall less damage with 2% dodge that with 415 sta, truth be told.

    Again with the dodge, we are reforging out of dodge into mastery/hit/exp. But that never meant that dodge is so useless that you will rather have 1 mstamina instead of 5 dodge. You are not comparing dodge to stamina, you are comparing a BIG chunk of dodge against stamina. I don't know what stat weigths are you using to diminish dodge so much... And again, 2% dodge is outside the DR. It won't matter what gear you gets, or what your dodge or parry are doing. If anything, it will matter in the sense that it will be equivalent to even more stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    Bit a moot comment, considering stamina doesn't mitigate damage in any shape or form.
    Not at all a moot comment. Smooth means not spiky, to save healers mana and prevent getting flash healed as much of possible. Probably, stamina is the better stat for that, before hit, exp or mastery. Or dodge. 1:1, ofc. Theck wrote an article on that too. Suggest you take a look at it :P Why I'm defending panda stamina anyways? xD

  19. #399
    Hello,
    I'm usually only reading MMO-Champion forums, but as of this expansion I had become MT on my warrior in my guild so this topic was in my big interest. While I agreed to most of the stuff that was presented in this guide in the first post at start I can't understand the logic behind the new priority for T14. Hit and Expertise above mastery may have it's validation - capping them both means maximum rage income which translates to more dmg blocked/absorbed by mitiagation abilities.

    The part I don't agree or just miss something about it's theory is Stamina above mitigation stats in the main priority. From what I always understood thorught the whole history of WoW as a game Stamina was representing the means of increasing the health pool of your character, but provided zero capabilities in defense mechanism of your charcter when it comes to damage reduction. It allows you to live longer without being healed, but requires in theory more of healers mana to be refilled again. You also need even more healers mana to keep you alive as you sacraficed some defense stats for more stamina so in result you take more damage.

    While argument that mastery at current gear level is not high enough to give you enough persistance in damage mitigation may seem valid, but in my opinion if something is responsible for the biggest portion of smoothing out the damage on the character it will be like this on all it's levels. Maybe it's because for now I'm talking from the point of view of mostly Normal modes fights as we are nearly done with with those in my guild and going to start some Heroics soon which I assume is quite a big jump again in damage taken per hit (we are doing 25mans btw if I didn't mentioned it yet), but for now I don't feel at all that I would need more Stamina than the amount provided from the gear itself. Bosses rarely hit me for more than 20% HP with their usual attacks which I think is quite good amount to go for.

    I tried to see how much the stats would change if I would go for capping hit and expertise and than priorytize stamina. Mastery % dropped by around 10 and I didnt even changed my gems for Stamina ones which would be quite a lot of mastery lost again. While in raid buffed situation with basically non-heoric gear you are able to get to around 66% mastery on gear without much issues so I have hard time to believe that we aren't able to reach 70% with Heroic gear.

    The problem is quite simmilar startegy is presented on EJ forums where the main argument after stamina is that you take relatively less % of your HP bar per hit. So I decided to check some top guilds warrior tanks. And indeed most of them goes with startegy of eathier maximizing stamina beyond imagination even ignorning stat bonuses from gem slots or getting as much staina as possible with getting gem slots bonuses. This makes it quite confusing - on other hand it can't be that the people who did already the hardest fights this tier can be wrong, but on other hand it seems to me that the reason they went for stamina may have been that the bosses hit so hard on HC that the gear that they were behind with when they progressed on those fights was not enough in stmaina department itself to cover those hits.

    So my main question is - does the priority of hit > expertise > stamina > mastery > parry > dodge is revelant to avarange raider that isn't going to be done with heroics until the very end of tier? As I think that those players, which is definitely the majority is going to be fine stamina wise just from the gear they have from bosses. What do the author of the first post think about it all? Also maybe some other opinions on the matter? Thanks in advance for answer. Cheers

  20. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Er... not, I'm not assuming it. You are saying that panda gives more flexibility, and I say how so, and present the alternatives of food, which you won't be taking. And me neither.
    By providing me with benefits for both specs that I'm using regularly, as well as a stat that is equally useful in cases of both magic and physical damage. Not only that, but if I find myself with so much stamina that it begins to feel almost excessive (albeit hard to imagine that happening), I can simply change to a damage buff and still benefit from my racial, even as a tank. That is pretty flexible to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Again with the dodge, we are reforging out of dodge into mastery/hit/exp. But that never meant that dodge is so useless that you will rather have 1 mstamina instead of 5 dodge. You are not comparing dodge to stamina, you are comparing a BIG chunk of dodge against stamina.
    And again, I never said dodge is useless, but you said it yourself; dodge gets better the more you have it, which means the same applies in reverse. Yes, the dodge from quickness has no DR, but it still remains our lowest priority stat and makes little sense to increase it at the expense of other stats that are much higher on the ladder, which I would add provide a lot more added benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    I don't know what stat weigths are you using to diminish dodge so much...
    My stat priorities are reflected on the guide, and further down the links to theck's blog.

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