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  1. #561
    I really doubt that. Even while advancing to crit-block-cap eating damage equal to 200k vengeance (Mel'Jarak) leaves almost no space for other mechanics besides pure tank damage. Let alone talk about 600k vengeance (Shek'zeer) when you're always on the edge of dying.

    And don't forget that not only they're going to nerf our offense but also our defense (shield barrier absorb) in the process of adjustments. What i don't get about it: why those nerfs to us when prot paladin are beating us in terms of dps and healing on basically all fights due to gearing for haste? Oh, apropo - gearing for haste... with the +100% benefit of haste on the ptr i guess we won't see a way to make it work for prot, will we?

    Other topic: anyone else got aggro problems versus really good monks? On aggro sensitive fights with tank swaps i've some serious problems, feels like the issues on Chimaeron versus Blood DKs all over again. But i'm not to sure if it's their strong healing done (modified by tank-stance) or just their already rather high amount of offensive stats.

  2. #562
    Cannot keep aggro with my monk at all. I think it's mostly keg smash(it's what I blame anyway), high damage, high cleave, and Dizzying Haze (think its one of the few abilities still in game with the "high amount of threat" modifier, doesn't do damage but come on Piercing Howl doesn't either). On top of their already high amounts of DPS. Once he gets any vengeance over me it's game over for the threat battle.

    I normally just let him pull these days and remind him of 0 vengeance on the first taunt. Can keep up and take aggro with a reck-macro on the pull. Should add that the gear they wear would add a lot to their threat too (crit, haste, agi), might try DPS gear sometime myself.

    Still, can't complain his DPS as BrM makes boss fights noticeably faster on top of the nice benefit guard brings.
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  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    I really doubt that. Even while advancing to crit-block-cap eating damage equal to 200k vengeance (Mel'Jarak) leaves almost no space for other mechanics besides pure tank damage. Let alone talk about 600k vengeance (Shek'zeer) when you're always on the edge of dying.

    And don't forget that not only they're going to nerf our offense but also our defense (shield barrier absorb) in the process of adjustments. What i don't get about it: why those nerfs to us when prot paladin are beating us in terms of dps and healing on basically all fights due to gearing for haste? Oh, apropo - gearing for haste... with the +100% benefit of haste on the ptr i guess we won't see a way to make it work for prot, will we?

    Other topic: anyone else got aggro problems versus really good monks? On aggro sensitive fights with tank swaps i've some serious problems, feels like the issues on Chimaeron versus Blood DKs all over again. But i'm not to sure if it's their strong healing done (modified by tank-stance) or just their already rather high amount of offensive stats.
    Yep, I don't expect that numbers either. Bosses will have to melee for ~250k (after armor and def stance) to reach 200k steady vengeance.

    They seem to be rather confident of their prediction, and nobody seems to care too much to bitch about it. So I suppose that it's time to eat it and bear the nerf. I wonder if they balance ignoring what other tanks do when choosing to gear offensive stats. Time to make crit give prot warriors rage and crit block% and level the playing field.

    PD: Intervene + /sit before a swap, there is no reason to start at 0 vengeance.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post

    PD: Intervene + /sit before a swap, there is no reason to start at 0 vengeance.
    Its never enough.
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  5. #565
    Be careful with Intervene on Debuff encounters. Shek'zeer, Ta’yak etc.

    I'm testing full avoidance tanking in normal modes for a while now. We did 16/16 with me doing so. Not sure if this is sufficient for heroic modes but it is definitely enough for normal modes.

    In question:
    I'm using EXP+STR trinket from Scholomance + STR trinket from Darkmoon. Gear is dodge/parry/hit stuff and mastery reforged into parry. No stamina gems. Mostly used parry gems.
    Got around 11% dodge and 23% parry. Especially on multi-add fights it's a blast. That is for two reasons. High vengeance + Revenge. Since you parry alot you can basically spam Revenge. This is far better than the crit-block rage gain. Plus barrier has no timer. All you need is 20 rage. I do not use 60rage barriers. I use the lowest available barrier (rage cost) to smooth out damage intake. Of course you only use barrier if your last one faded.

    I really hate the current block mechanic. To make it worthwile you have to go all out on mastery and if you used your 60 rage right before a magic damage attack you get nothing out of it.

    If you want to try sth different give full-avoidance-sbar-tanking a try. I really like it.
    Last edited by zorker; 2013-02-22 at 07:00 PM.
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  6. #566
    I reforged clean out of dodge/parry for control > mastery and on high add fights I was getting more revenges than the GCD would allow (that's also incredibly infuriating when it lights up).

    I'd also argue that it's down to knowing the fight for when to use Shield block vs. barrier.

    Down to your preference these days really, which is nice.
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  7. #567
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flawless101 View Post
    I was getting more revenges than the GCD would allow (that's also incredibly infuriating when it lights up).
    In multi-target tanking, this will always happen -- there's really no point in going all in on avoidance solely to try to get more Revenges, as you'll already be getting more than you can use.

  8. #568
    Which is arguably the most annoying thing with protection warriors at this point in time. Second place is 1.5 second GCD.
    Also, the fact that they're nerfing execute for all specs by 25% for 5.2 AND heroic leap by 50% makes me want to gouge my eyes out. No compensation, no nothing?
    I'm not bitter, not at all.

  9. #569
    Time will tell, in 5.1 gear in 5.1 fights it seems massive, but Heroic Leap wasn't the make or break between shit and topping meters, WoL has plenty of examples of this. Curious to see how it will play out once people are (mostly) 5.2 geared. I never enjoyed being backloaded with execute damage and felt executeo should of been -re-balanced for 5.0 and damage moved into other abilities. When the stars align Execute phases doing 20%~ of your damage is just wild.
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  10. #570
    The problem about execute nerf is that is intended for both arms and fury, and one of the reasons is how supposedly good is the legendary meta for them. Which doesn't look so for prot. In their analisys and data, prot probably never uses execute, and doing a global nerf have no bearing in their minds. Well, prot don't use it unless they need to nerf it, because they were fairly swift to cap execute damage at high levels of vengeance.

    Yet another collateral nerf (shockwave, heroic leap, execute). And nobody seems to give a shit, neither for those nor for the DPS.

  11. #571
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    I am pretty furious that they did that frankly, and basically leave paladins where they are in terms of DPS to gear which is at the top by quite a way now
    Its just another facet of blizzards ineptitude when it comes to knowing how people actually play and balancing their own game
    For the majority of fights where at the end you can stack externals on the MT and just use them for extra burn DPS on the boss, this is just a colossal nerf.

    I haven't done numbers yet but this means that for pretty much all Heroic fights and most in 25 man normal you will probably be better off using shield slam heavy repercussions than just execute in pure DPS terms

    I am fine with them capping execute at maximum health because realistically that was out of control at some of the numbers you could get
    Its fine to nerf execute a little bit but please for the love of god, put that lost damage somewhere else so you don't end up raping the class (Prot) I would love to see heroic strike get a bit of love or slightly increasing the AP coefficient of devastate

  12. #572
    Watching raidbots (especially 10mans normal and heroic) is quite disturbing...

  13. #573
    Yeah, that's the thing. I don't think they should nerf paladins, or death knights, or monks. I think they should start compensating for some of the nerfs instead. Sure, nerf execute by 25% with the main intention of toning down fury sub 20%, but then at least give the other specs (or even fury to be honest) some kind of minor compensation on an already weak ability like heroic strike.

    You see these kinds of compensation all the time, also oftenly motivated as being just that, when other classes recieve nerfs of this magnitude. Show some finesse developers, come on now.

  14. #574
    I hate to say it, but raid guilds aren't bringing tanks for their damage. They're being brought for other reasons. If tanks were only being brought for their damage, you'd see a lot more monks tanking higher end guilds.



  15. #575
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    I hate to say it, but raid guilds aren't bringing tanks for their damage. They're being brought for other reasons. If tanks were only being brought for their damage, you'd see a lot more monks tanking higher end guilds.
    I think you have somewhat missed the point and also appear to be misinformed about monk damage:P

    Monk DPS as brewmaster only really shines on AoE fights relative to the other tanks. Another reason monks aren't used very often in high end guilds is due to them being very gear dependent and inconsistent during progress
    On AoE fights aswell you will also usually be taking a rather hefty chunk more incoming damage as a Monk which also means if you want their high AoE DPS you need to be prepared to heal them alot more, which in the case of high DPS checks WITH alot of healing required it is usually better just to go with a stronger tank

    In 25M Heroic, the tank is most often the #1 DPS'er or should be if you have a clue of what you are doing, and before you start quoting "oh lol your DPS'ers must suck" I advise you to check out our logs and will be greeted with easily some of the very top DPS'ers in the world

    Yes they are brought for other reasons primarily but that isn't to say Tank DPS isn't important, quite the opposite. I would go as far as to say Tank DPS is one of a "Good Tank"'s mandatory skill set

  16. #576
    Bosses with slow swing timers; would it be better to maintain maximum uptime of shield block or attempting to keep a barrier up for each swing?

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    I think you have somewhat missed the point and also appear to be misinformed about monk damage:P

    Monk DPS as brewmaster only really shines on AoE fights relative to the other tanks. Another reason monks aren't used very often in high end guilds is due to them being very gear dependent and inconsistent during progress
    On AoE fights aswell you will also usually be taking a rather hefty chunk more incoming damage as a Monk which also means if you want their high AoE DPS you need to be prepared to heal them alot more, which in the case of high DPS checks WITH alot of healing required it is usually better just to go with a stronger tank

    In 25M Heroic, the tank is most often the #1 DPS'er or should be if you have a clue of what you are doing, and before you start quoting "oh lol your DPS'ers must suck" I advise you to check out our logs and will be greeted with easily some of the very top DPS'ers in the world

    Yes they are brought for other reasons primarily but that isn't to say Tank DPS isn't important, quite the opposite. I would go as far as to say Tank DPS is one of a "Good Tank"'s mandatory skill set
    There were a decent number of guilds that used Monks during progression. You also say that tanks should be the #1 dps on raid bosses in 25H, but there are a few fights where tanks really "shine" due to boss mechanics. They're not top dps on every fight like you're insinuating. It's really easy to cheese boss mechanics to make your dps as a tank go up high, that's how a lot of tanks rank on fights.



  18. #578
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Yes you CAN cheese, and yes some guilds did use monks on progress

    However most did neither during progress

    There have been 3 fights this tier where I wasn't topping during progress, Gara'jal, Spirit Kings (Because cheesing vengeance from annihilate is for scrubs) and Garalon

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Bosses with slow swing timers; would it be better to maintain maximum uptime of shield block or attempting to keep a barrier up for each swing?
    Depends just how slow the swing timer is and how many attacks you cover with the block.
    Due to a slow swing timer the boss is going to probably be hitting a lot harder than normal, therefore on the first few hits you should use block with no questions asked until your vengeance reaches its peak

    After that however it depends just how slow the attacks are and if hes hitting hard enough for you to absorb over atleast 40% of that attack (averaging out due to crit block)

    Having said all this, its fairly hypothetical and I cant really think of any boss that has a slow enough swing timer to merit this kind of playstyle

  19. #579
    I can't say that i top meters on all that many fights (10 man we're talking here) but I also don't think that tank damage should be pushed asside since DPS is only for DPSers, especially garajal @ without the current gear or any AOE fight i believe tank damage is very important indeed. Finally killed sha last night (thanks for some tips there eddy!) and i can say that optimising the usage of leap and roar and what not helps at a decent amount on the adds atleast.

    I've been annoyed with how Prot paladins can just Haste untill there is no way for them not to overagro me right after a taunt switch (or protading enjoys doing that to me) while we get nerfed and have no DPS stat that keeps it's value above specific caps (exp @ hard cap is the last DPS stat i'm reforging into atleast).

    I also don't see why they nerfed Execute this hard without giving some love to other abilities, my Fury warrior always whining about him shining @ execute range and nothing else, i don't think he really wanted to get that part nerfed without getting anything for the rest of the time he's on a boss.
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  20. #580

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