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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    I can't see a situation really where I need to charge every 12 or 15 seconds on demand, but having 2 immediately sounds helpful as hell in any situation.
    Most of the quality related complaints, particularly with Double Time, relate to performance in PvP rather than PvE. In PvE, you could honestly pick just about anything and it wouldn’t matter. They didn’t make our talents cool or interesting, they made them largely meaningless.

    Just avoid Staggering Shout and Warbringer, and you’re golden.

    Also, I’m re-evaluating the quality of Second Wind and finding that I might end up taking it. I’ve played with Enraged Regeneration and Impending Victory and, frankly, both feel abnormally weak. 20% of your health every minute is extremely underwhelming, particularly when you’re not inclined to use either whenever they’re off cooldown. A cheap heal beats Impending Victory, while Enraged Regeneration almost forces you to keep Berserker Rage available because of its ludicrous rage cost otherwise.

    The alternative is to take Second Wind and forget about it, safe in the knowledge that it’ll start ticking when you need it. Again, however, it’s a sad state when you’re choosing a talent because it happens to merely be the least awful in the tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  2. #82
    Kebess, how long do you normally take to TC and put up weakened blows on a boss pull? Isn't it ideal to do it before your first devastate even if it's further down on the priority list after you've done it once?

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    Hi Ysearia.

    If you really follow all the advice, I've been giving in the comments and in the guide, you should normally do very well - even on pulls.

    What you want to do right before the pull is :
    Shout, then Berserker Rage, Charge, and Heroic Leap, all at the same time, ''during'' that pull. This will give you enough Rage for a Shield block right away (if your Charge is Bull Rush glyphed).

    It will also establish some initial aggro, even though you just landed, thank to your Heroic Leap (very helpful, especially for pulling a trash pack). Don't delay your first Shield Slam neither, you need to hit the mob with it as soon as you're in melee range. It will give you even some more Rage to assure furthermore, a strong start.

    On Baleroc for example, if you were able to pop your SB right away for his first 3 hits, you would have done OK.
    Also don't forget to use Demo Shout even at the pull, if you expect it to be a bit intensive, it will greatly help.

    Lastly, don't forget to Thunder Clap as soon as possible, when dealing with multiple mobs, even if they're not all directly in melee range (you can always pick up the last one, or two if you were really unlucky) with your taunt and/or Heroic Throw, and/or a second Charge, if you have Double Time.
    Delaying that first TC will often result in having more mobs running towards casters, instead of just one that can easily be picked up with your range abilities.

    There. Let me know if these advice helped, ; )
    Thanks nonetheless for advice but I already know what to do there but this will be great for newcommers and others so keep it up like that, because if I would be a fresh guy, that guide is pure gold tbh.

    I more liked to hear how ya guys feel with initial dmg income as that could be the way I geared up/reforged (2x trinkets that stack during the combat) but if you say it's all the same for you too then I will do it as I do now, mostly as you stated above. I just felt strange to pop even things like DS at the start. On that multiple mobs situation, as I said I did all that was needed but mob was still stick for few seconds on another player (there was not even slight dmg from him), mob did switch tho, after he reached that person, silly bugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Also, I’m re-evaluating the quality of Second Wind and finding that I might end up taking it. I’ve played with Enraged Regeneration and Impending Victory and, frankly, both feel abnormally weak. 20% of your health every minute is extremely underwhelming, particularly when you’re not inclined to use either whenever they’re off cooldown. A cheap heal beats Impending Victory, while Enraged Regeneration almost forces you to keep Berserker Rage available because of its ludicrous rage cost otherwise.

    The alternative is to take Second Wind and forget about it, safe in the knowledge that it’ll start ticking when you need it. Again, however, it’s a sad state when you’re choosing a talent because it happens to merely be the least awful in the tier.
    After few test raids, FL hc, DS hc runs I started to thinking about it too, specially with initial dmg. Also there are few times you go to that point 35% and using IV still require that 10rage or zerk/60rage on ER so I guess I will test it next DS/FL and compare how much it did proc and stuff.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Most of the quality related complaints, particularly with Double Time, relate to performance in PvP rather than PvE. In PvE, you could honestly pick just about anything and it wouldn’t matter. They didn’t make our talents cool or interesting, they made them largely meaningless.

    Just avoid Staggering Shout and Warbringer, and you’re golden.

    Also, I’m re-evaluating the quality of Second Wind and finding that I might end up taking it. I’ve played with Enraged Regeneration and Impending Victory and, frankly, both feel abnormally weak. 20% of your health every minute is extremely underwhelming, particularly when you’re not inclined to use either whenever they’re off cooldown. A cheap heal beats Impending Victory, while Enraged Regeneration almost forces you to keep Berserker Rage available because of its ludicrous rage cost otherwise.

    The alternative is to take Second Wind and forget about it, safe in the knowledge that it’ll start ticking when you need it. Again, however, it’s a sad state when you’re choosing a talent because it happens to merely be the least awful in the tier.
    You would have to be under 35% hp for 10s every minute for Second Wind to have the same effectiveness that Enrage Regen or Impending Victory has. Outside of a few special cases I don't see it getting off more than 1-3 ticks before you're back above 35%, which is why I would keep Enraged Regen or Imp Victory just so you have the control over how and when you receive your self healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Kebess, how long do you normally take to TC and put up weakened blows on a boss pull? Isn't it ideal to do it before your first devastate even if it's further down on the priority list after you've done it once?
    For me it depends on the fight. Most fights begin with only tank damage so you're the only one that the healers are focusing on so you're able to get a full opener off before you'd want to TC. But that being said on fights like Baleroc, Morchok and the Terrors on Madness I'll usually SS -> TC just b/c of the higher physical damage.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puntr View Post
    You would have to be under 35% hp for 10s every minute for Second Wind to have the same effectiveness that Enrage Regen or Impending Victory has. Outside of a few special cases I don't see it getting off more than 1-3 ticks before you're back above 35%, which is why I would keep Enraged Regen or Imp Victory just so you have the control over how and when you receive your self healing.
    Ultimately, this is the nub of the issue.

    Second Wind, regardless of timing, will be ready to go if you’re ever under its threshold. Win. Enraged Regeneration and Impending Victory have definitive drawbacks (the first a needlessly high rage cost, the second the fact you have to be able to hit something) as well as harbouring decision points that, once made, will rob you of any self-healing for the next 29 or 59 seconds. These durations can be interminably long.

    I’m aware that, in raw numbers, it’s highly unlikely Second Wind can ever beat the other talents on its tier. That said, it’s just as unlikely that you’ll routinely use ER or IV on cooldown and that, even if you did, they’re painfully weak. To paraphrase Nhym, “it’s a [talented] heal you can barely feel”.

    Most of the commentary regarding ER and IV concentrate on the question whether or not you want a more common heal that’s lower, or a more cooldown-orientated one that’s potentially less reliable.

    None of the commentary concentrates on the fact that they’re both shite. The difference they make is made up for by incidental AoE heals, that’s how weak they are.

    And as situational as Second Wind is, at least it’s powerful when it does go off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Ultimately, this is the nub of the issue.

    Second Wind, regardless of timing, will be ready to go if you’re ever under its threshold. Win. Enraged Regeneration and Impending Victory have definitive drawbacks (the first a needlessly high rage cost, the second the fact you have to be able to hit something) as well as harbouring decision points that, once made, will rob you of any self-healing for the next 29 or 59 seconds. These durations can be interminably long.

    I’m aware that, in raw numbers, it’s highly unlikely Second Wind can ever beat the other talents on its tier. That said, it’s just as unlikely that you’ll routinely use ER or IV on cooldown and that, even if you did, they’re painfully weak. To paraphrase Nhym, “it’s a [talented] heal you can barely feel”.

    Most of the commentary regarding ER and IV concentrate on the question whether or not you want a more common heal that’s lower, or a more cooldown-orientated one that’s potentially less reliable.

    None of the commentary concentrates on the fact that they’re both shite. The difference they make is made up for by incidental AoE heals, that’s how weak they are.

    And as situational as Second Wind is, at least it’s powerful when it does go off.
    Haven't tried it myself but if i'm reading that correctly it has no duration, meaning that whenever you are under 35% and while you are under you regen. If it works like this it's useless, how many times are you going to be under 35% long enough for that to be usefull before your healers do their job?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    Haven't tried it myself but if i'm reading that correctly it has no duration, meaning that whenever you are under 35% and while you are under you regen. If it works like this it's useless, how many times are you going to be under 35% long enough for that to be usefull before your healers do their job?
    That's not really the point I'm making.

    My point is that there are three crap talents in the tier, so it’s a case of picking the one that’s the least crap. Nobody, not even you, notices when you use Enraged Regeneration or Impending Victory because they’re so weak – they’re practically meaningless heals and a waste of rage. Both of the previous incarnations of these talents were far better.

    Yet, you’d be amazed how long you survive with Second Wind while you’re hovering around the one-third health mark. And because it’s passive, there’s no actual decision to be made about when to use it. It’s future proof.

    Truthfully, the entire tier is a sham. We waste a talent for self healing that still leaves us worse off in that regard than the other tanks are as baseline. Now, that’s fine; self-healing isn’t part of our kit. But then why is this tier here at all? Why couldn’t it have been based around something that IS a part of our kit?

    Anyway, this is a guide. As such, it needs to house meaningful discussions on the talents and discounting Second Wind as “useless” is a gross disservice to it when the competitors are barely any better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Anyway, this is a guide. As such, it needs to house meaningful discussions on the talents and discounting Second Wind as “useless” is a gross disservice to it when the competitors are barely any better.
    Chosing from something that heals you on demand for 20% of your total HP on 1 min cd meaning that it can even be used together with LS or RC, from something that on demand heals you for 10% of your total HP on 30s cd and again can be used with LS or RC, or something that might at best heal you for 6% of your total HP unless you consider being 1 hit to death for more than 2 seconds healthy... My opinion remains that it's useless unless we have some gimmick fight where it will actually shine. Most of the times it will be a subpar option.

  9. #89
    For some really crazy action you can do

    Code:
    /cast [@mouseover,help,nodead][help,nodead] Intervene
    /cast [@mouseover,help,nodead][@target,help,nodead] Vigilance
    /stopmacro [@target,help,nodead][@mouseover,help,nodead]
    /cleartarget [dead]
    /startattack
    /cast Charge
    /cast Heroic Throw
    /cast Heroic Leap
    Afaik Heroic Throw is off global cooldown.

    The Intervene part is kinda tricky. It will cast Intervene automatically on the target target if the target has a player target that is not you. So basically as soon as the mob targets someone else and you hit the key it will Intervene that player if in range.

    Sometimes this produces pretty funny outcomes. You intervene your healer and charge right back to the mob.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    Chosing from something that heals you on demand for 20% of your total HP on 1 min cd meaning that it can even be used together with LS or RC, from something that on demand heals you for 10% of your total HP on 30s cd and again can be used with LS or RC, or something that might at best heal you for 6% of your total HP unless you consider being 1 hit to death for more than 2 seconds healthy... My opinion remains that it's useless unless we have some gimmick fight where it will actually shine. Most of the times it will be a subpar option.
    See, this is the problem.

    If your opinion is that you prefer Enraged Regeneration or Impending Victory, then that’s absolutely fine. I’m not disagreeing with your assessment at all, because I can’t – it’s your assessment.

    But you’re presenting Second Wind extremely unfairly in your commentary, while totally overlooking some pretty significant flaws with your preferences. Both talents require user participation (positive for some, negative for others) and both compete with baseline abilities for your rage. Here are my issues, in a nutshell.

    Enraged Regeneration requires an Enrage effect (which it consumes, I believe) or a total of 60 rage. You’re giving up a Shield Block or full strength barrier for this talent, it’s only available once a minute and you can make bad decisions with it. You can, however, control when you want to use it as it’s an active ability.

    Impending Victory requires you to be able to hit a target (not always guaranteed) and will cost you 20 rage. You’re giving up a low strength Shield Barrier for it which, when boss tanking, will still be of far more value. A single weak heal, every 30 seconds, is not worth 20 rage and a talent point. Again, it’s active.

    Second Wind requires you to be below 35% health and will, on average, tick between one and three times at best. However, it has no rage cost, it cannot technically be wasted, and it has no cooldown; not even an ICD. It’s wholly passive and, due to it being free, you can use rage for blocks or barriers instead.

    NONE of these talents are strong. They’re all abnormally weak. In the end, it comes down to personal preference which you want to take and all I’m arguing for is that Second Wind gets a fair shake rather than having all its weaknesses compared to all its competitors strengths.

    And, yes, this is a complete 180 from my previous stance on the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  11. #91
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    You have a fair point there Thyl. These 3 talents are all at best moderate, with Second Wind being a tad more situational than the two others - we can't ignore that.
    But when that last one actually have some occasions to proc more or less regularly, it becomes a nice tool to have, especially when compared to the two other abilities.

    I pointed out a while back, at the beginning of the beta, that our self-healing was really too mediocre when compared to other tanks, and that we didn't have enough tools to balance this lack.
    We ended up however having Shield Barrier, which can be used for absorption and thus some sort of self-healing, and Rallying Cry which momentarily grants us some more health. I personally was glad with these, and found things much more on par once again, especially when you add to these two abilities, ER or IR, or even SW. And so, I settled for them.

    I totally agree that the second tier still remains weak though, and should either be buffed somehow or simply be replaced with more impacting survival tools.

    Now, regarding the choice we have to make between these three abilities, as I've said before, it remains extremely close and even situational, and so your personal preference will inevitably impact that choice.
    For that reason, I'll leave this 2nd tier blank in the guide, and instead give more descriptions and situations in which they can all three shine, and let you guys make your own subjective choice - because in most cases, that choice wouldn't even matter that much to begin with, since these three talents are so ''moderate'' (to not say weak), and so close in strength.

    I'll be doing the same for the first tier as well, since choosing between Juggernaut and Double Time, will mainly depend on your own personal gameplay more than anything else, as you'll always find ways to either fairly defend your choice, or have the exact same end result with any of these two abilities.
    This is why I clearly stated that your own personal flavor, and raid set up, and the encounter itself, were gonna be the determinant points for this build. It's simply what this next expansion is all about really, and I even love this idea.
    The only downside is that many, if not most, of our choice are in fact inconsequent in the vast majority of encounters we'll be facing, as you could truly go ahead and beat everything without even bothering to pick any talent at all, on tier 1, 3, 5, etc... since they have so little impact on the overall end result.

    And in my own humble opinion, that is exactly what still needs much more improvement for this expansion to truly become what we've all been wanting all these years.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-03 at 05:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zorker View Post
    For some really crazy action you can do

    Code:
    /cast [@mouseover,help,nodead][help,nodead] Intervene
    /cast [@mouseover,help,nodead][@target,help,nodead] Vigilance
    /stopmacro [@target,help,nodead][@mouseover,help,nodead]
    /cleartarget [dead]
    /startattack
    /cast Charge
    /cast Heroic Throw
    /cast Heroic Leap
    Afaik Heroic Throw is off global cooldown.

    The Intervene part is kinda tricky. It will cast Intervene automatically on the target target if the target has a player target that is not you. So basically as soon as the mob targets someone else and you hit the key it will Intervene that player if in range.

    Sometimes this produces pretty funny outcomes. You intervene your healer and charge right back to the mob.
    Thanks for this macro! I'll certainly try it out, and see what it's worth.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-03 at 05:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Kebess, how long do you normally take to TC and put up weakened blows on a boss pull? Isn't it ideal to do it before your first devastate even if it's further down on the priority list after you've done it once?
    In a single target environment, I truly don't delay it, even though it's not my first move. It comes fairly ''naturally'', as I don't really think that much about it. But it always happens after the initial SS, and somewhere in between the following Rev and Devastate. I rarely wait any longer than that first Devastate to Thunder Clap, as there's no point in delaying it any longer.
    Ideally, you want it ASAP if aggro isn't an issue. So don't hesitate to place it right after that first SS.
    If your pull was correct, you'd have more than enough Rage to pop a Shield Block anyways, and so delaying Rev, and Devastate just for a GCD, would not be penalizing even in the slightest way.
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  12. #92
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    Heroic Throw is still on the global cooldown.
    What? Why? When? Who? Which? How? Wait...
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  13. #93
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maradar View Post
    Heroic Throw is still on the global cooldown.
    Correct. It doesn't reset your auto-attack swing time anymore however.
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  14. #94
    To bad. So I would remove that from the macro and use leap instead.
    I like having Taunt + Heroic Throw on a button aswell.
    Last edited by zorker; 2012-09-04 at 07:40 AM.
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Impending Victory requires you to be able to hit a target (not always guaranteed) and will cost you 20 rage. You’re giving up a low strength Shield Barrier for it which, when boss tanking, will still be of far more value. A single weak heal, every 30 seconds, is not worth 20 rage and a talent point. Again, it’s active.
    Victory Rush/Impending Victory heal you regardless of the ability being a hit/miss/dodge/parry/block/immune

    It can be glyphed to 15% of max HP, none of the others have that benfit

    Also it only costs 10 rage

    Talents of the same tier are in competition with each other so its intended that none of them stand out as the best, as is the point of the talent revamp. They're each going to have situational advantages, though I'd say Victory Rush is the overwhelmingly more useful one for 90% of encounters

  16. #96
    Personally, I think IV is the strongest in that tier. 10 rage is pretty cheap.

    Also, according to http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6490559608 Dragon Roar generates no threat, which is hopefully a bug, because that's really odd and makes it a really terrible talent. Which is a shame, because it's awesome.

    EDIT: @above, the Victory Rush glyph doesn't work on the normal portion of IV, just the bit that imitates the original Victory Rush.
    Last edited by Waniou; 2012-09-04 at 08:16 AM.

  17. #97

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warheart View Post
    Victory Rush/Impending Victory heal you regardless of the ability being a hit/miss/dodge/parry/block/immune
    That’s not what I meant – I meant that if you’re stunned, out of range or have nothing to hit (Lei Shi for example), then you’ve got a heal that you can’t get off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warheart View Post
    It can be glyphed to 15% of max HP, none of the others have that benfit
    I’ve spoken about this recently and it’s a route you might want to take in a mega-defensive build; but have you confirmed that the glyph works for Impending Victory? I keep meaning to check, and keep forgetting. >.<

    Quote Originally Posted by Warheart View Post
    Also it only costs 10 rage
    Fair correction, thanks.

    But is it a better use of your rage than waiting another 10, which is easy, for a low level barrier? Go tank any ol’ content, and see how much the average low level barrier is absorbing when you have some Vengeance. You’ll be shocked at the result for just how weak Impending Victory really is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warheart View Post
    Talents of the same tier are in competition with each other so its intended that none of them stand out as the best, as is the point of the talent revamp. They're each going to have situational advantages, though I'd say Victory Rush is the overwhelmingly more useful one for 90% of encounters
    That’s really all I’m trying to say, despite disagreeing with your conclusion. For PvE purposes there are more choices (PvP warrior choices are practically set in stone) and the second tier needs to be viewed that way.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-04 at 09:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Waniou View Post
    Also, according to http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6490559608 Dragon Roar generates no threat, which is hopefully a bug, because that's really odd and makes it a really terrible talent. Which is a shame, because it's awesome.
    This could be intended for DPS specs as, otherwise, it could be an aggro monster because of how hard it actually hits. Still, I don’t see why that would be the case while in Defensive Stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waniou View Post
    EDIT: @above, the Victory Rush glyph doesn't work on the normal portion of IV, just the bit that imitates the original Victory Rush.
    Thanks for that; it’s good to see another potential option taken away in this effort to "give us more REAL options".
    Last edited by Zellviren; 2012-09-04 at 08:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  19. #99
    If you compare IV to Barrier, Barrier will win, but there are situations in MoP content where you will be taking a hit with Barrier up, and needing a heal but being out of LoS of your healers for a few seconds, in which case either it or Enraged Regen are actually good

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    I can't see a situation really where I need to charge every 12 or 15 seconds on demand, but having 2 immediately sounds helpful as hell in any situation.
    Maybe on Heroic Spine if you have to kite the adds.
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