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  1. #301
    EF is very good at stacking mastery shields and benefits from all secondary stats in some way. SS scales with int / haste and nothing else. Maybe the incoming mastery nerf will bring EF a bit closer to SS though.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Galedric View Post
    EF is very good at stacking mastery shields and benefits from all secondary stats in some way. SS scales with int / haste and nothing else. Maybe the incoming mastery nerf will bring EF a bit closer to SS though.
    No, EF is still better with only one EF rolling, and with it doubling on yourself its a no brainer, mastery shield or not

  3. #303
    The Patient Kerfax's Avatar
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    SS has proven to be much weaker than EF in the current tier. As far as maximizing throughput, even without the 4 piece pvp set, EF has been completely outdoing SS as far as I can tell. The scaling is very different between the two (EF coming on top as far as scaling so far), although its also hard for me to differentiate the full throughput of both when SS allows huge amounts of LoD whereas EF basically makes using LoD wasteful.

    I can reword the guide if necessary, I wouldn't want people to be confused as they look over the information presented.

  4. #304
    The Lightbringer nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerfax View Post
    SS has proven to be much weaker than EF in the current tier. As far as maximizing throughput, even without the 4 piece pvp set, EF has been completely outdoing SS as far as I can tell. The scaling is very different between the two (EF coming on top as far as scaling so far), although its also hard for me to differentiate the full throughput of both when SS allows huge amounts of LoD whereas EF basically makes using LoD wasteful.
    That's the thing, EF doesn't prevent people from using LoD. That's not a downside of taking EF.

    (What annoys me more than anything else is those who think that just because you have EF specced, using LoD at any time is an "HPS loss" and thus "must be avoided at all costs." Those people are padding.)

    You're comparing ticks that can be put on any player (and the associated mastery/beacon) with a shield that's on a single target. To be honest given raid damage profiles, the first is always going to be more useful. Most of single-target directed heals are overheal especially since beacon, rapture PW:S, lifeblooms, everything will be on that target. That or for predictable large spikes, the single-target absorb needs to be more reliable anyway.

    For instance, SS has been a go-to talent in arena for PvP, and it's good that there still is a niche for Holy, just not so much in dungeons/raids.

  5. #305
    Epic! Freia's Avatar
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    I agree. There is absolutely no reason to think that you can only use EF if you are specced into it and should never use LoD. Balanced use of both is really what you should be doing in this tier.

  6. #306
    Good example is Megaera, should you use nothing but EF there? Maybe
    Should you take LoD off your bars because its replaced by EF? No
    Should you use your brain and think about the strengths your raid group has when deciding where to put your HP? Definitely
    Personally in my raids I usually exclusively EF, but thats because we have a Besto Sham, Priest or double Light's Hammer to deal with the keeping people alive part of the AoE, what we struggle with is topping people back up afterwards to a safe level, but your guild might be different, you might run with a group that needs you to help stabilise the raid in which case you'll want to LoD

  7. #307
    The Lightbringer nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Good example is Megaera, should you use nothing but EF there? Maybe
    Should you take LoD off your bars because its replaced by EF? No
    Unless you're handling final rampages very well, I still use LoD on Megaera :\ perhaps later on as we outgear it, I won't.

    One fight I used almost exclusively EF on for progression - Primordius.

  8. #308
    The Patient Kerfax's Avatar
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    I can understand that thought process.
    I'm not arguing that if you spec into EF you should never use LoD, simply that by looking through logs it's difficult to compare them directly. It seems that EF has come out on top simply because of what you've mentioned Void: EF can be used on anyone while SS is a single target ability. EF gives you a large amount of versatility where you can pick whether you want to use your HoT or if you want to use your group AoE spell whereas LoD takes away the option of EF and replaces it with a spell that can only affect one person.

  9. #309
    On the topic of SoI and meleeing the boss:

    The bug where EF ticks would reset your swing timer has been fixed. I melee anything I can, if you're creative, you'll find a way to continuously autoattack on almost every boss. It ends up being about 500k+ mana back on most fights, which is obviously a HUGE help.

    Also, I gemmed full mastery and with SoI fix, I can still manage I mana.

  10. #310
    I'd like to see 500k mana return on any fight. Please post logs.

  11. #311
    Epic! Freia's Avatar
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    Yea don't really see what fights you are doing that allow you to stay on a target and melee long enough to get the much mana back. Longest I can melee is on horridon and I only get like 120k.

  12. #312
    I have a question... what would be the pro's and con's to bringing 2 holy paladins to a 25 man group? I'm getting conflicting information.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Puerto View Post
    I have a question... what would be the pro's and con's to bringing 2 holy paladins to a 25 man group? I'm getting conflicting information.
    Biggest con - potential loss of a powerful healing cd like healing tide or tranquility.

    Biggest pro - lots of extra utility. Double beacon on tanks, extra hand spells like purity, sacrifice, freedom, etc.

    Ultimately take the best player. It's a 25 man, so doubling up on a healing class isn't going to be a hindrance to your progression. There are some fight's where things might be slightly easier because of more utility or extra absorb healing and some fights where it might be slightly harder due to lack of an extra raid healing cd.

  14. #314
    The Lightbringer nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puerto View Post
    I have a question... what would be the pro's and con's to bringing 2 holy paladins to a 25 man group? I'm getting conflicting information.
    What Kurzior said, but for 25m considering fights require up to 7-8 healers and there are 5 healing classes (6 specs) in game, there are no such things as "cons" to bringing two of any healing class to the party other than losing out on potentially bringing a different player/class.

  15. #315
    Based on some general feedback/posts from other healing classes, one potential con is that the non-paladins may not be enthusiastic about the additional absorbs brought to the raid. However, all feelings aside, those absorbs are a pro from a raid performance perspective.

  16. #316
    If healers are cranky because paladins and disc priests are sniping heals then they're more worried about meters/ranking than killing bosses and should be wholesale disregarded.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    If healers are cranky because paladins and disc priests are sniping heals then they're more worried about meters/ranking than killing bosses and should be wholesale disregarded.
    Not necessarily true, its incredibly boring for a healer to sit there and just heal what the Paladins can't, if you've ever been in LFR with a shit ton of good Holy Paladins you'll probably get this

  18. #318
    LFR is boring to heal for everyone. I pretty much hope half the healers go dps or die early so I have something to do.

    In real progression the reason people bitch about pally/disc absorb healing is because they look bad on the meters.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    LFR is boring to heal for everyone. I pretty much hope half the healers go dps or die early so I have something to do.

    In real progression the reason people bitch about pally/disc absorb healing is because they look bad on the meters.
    If its a consistent set up then it can get very boring to, nothing to do with meters just simply your sense of purpose, and in a lot of cases you can't just reduce healers as you need the burst throughput

  20. #320
    Holy paladins are very stackable atm, they have what I would say the best utility spells in the game (although if you already have 2~3 paladins the usefulness of more paladins diminishes quite a lot) and they are in my opinion the overall strongest healer. On gimmick fights such as tortos (humming crystal buff) and tortos with his big dmg taken buff we fall behind a small bit but on these fights you should really only be beaten by priests (horridon) and monks (tortos). On pretty much all other fights you should be at the top of the meters.

    I have myself not found a single situation were I would use LoD over EF. You'll have better results EF blanketing than you ever will by waiting for the damage and using LoD, and even when the damage just came in topping someone with EF will give you better results (unless the mastery shield will expire). I haven't done a massive amount of log digging but I've had very good results myself. I've also been running with DP instead of HA, mostly because I seem to average higher during the fights (spike lower obviously), but for most of the fights we have a tranq/tide or something else to take care of the biggest spikes.

    If anyone would like to compare HA to DP here's our logs: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/102732/
    Here's our last Wednesday, which contains most bosses: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pqll5k44cyccfeil/
    Some of our healers failed miserably and with some luck on not getting stats stacks I was able to put out some really good numbers on primordius: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pl...?s=2557&e=2964

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