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  1. #241
    Selfless Healer: The talent now procs from Judgement and Holy Shock making it a nice passive bonus for single target healing. Every 3 HS casts you will be able to cast a free instant super charge FoL. If you don't want to mess with the HoT and shield mechanics, this may be a strong option.
    Unless I'm missing something this change was from an erroneous patch note during PTR. Even on the PTR I don't think HS ever procced SH and the tooltip was reverted back before live.

    Maybe you should also mention that EF now does double healing when cast on ourselves. It's a very strong HoT leading to crazy mastery shields and strong beacon transfer.
    Last edited by Galedric; 2013-03-25 at 12:01 PM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Galedric View Post
    Maybe you should also mention that EF now does double healing when cast on ourselves. It's a very strong HoT leading to crazy mastery shields and strong beacon transfer.
    Indeed. If no one needs EF through damage and you're just using it for beacon transfer you should always prefer yourself. It's basically a second EF on the tank thanks to the double heal.

  3. #243
    I've been wondering how other HPals deal with our cooldowns. We have quite a few and it doesn't seem reasonable to have each on its own keybind. I've tried castsequences and macro'ing them all together, and this is what I'm currently using:

    #showtooltip
    /use [mod:shift] Guardian of Ancient Kings
    /castsequence reset=180 Divine Favor, Avenging Wrath
    /use Holy Avenger
    /use 10


    Anyone have any thoughts on what the best way to manage our CDs is?

  4. #244
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerfax View Post
    I realize this is very late, but I have updated the original guide to cover the main changes for 5.2. There weren't too many, and I apologize for the updates being made so late.

    I'm not currently raiding (or even playing actively for that matter), but I will do my best to keep this guide updated with the basic information. I very much appreciate the raiders who answer questions for people as I am no longer capable of answering raid related questions.
    Going to give you another thanks for this guide, when I first made my holy paladin last tier in November, this was my go-to to get set up. It's worked out very well.

    Best of luck with your future endeavors.

  5. #245
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    I've been wondering how other HPals deal with our cooldowns. We have quite a few and it doesn't seem reasonable to have each on its own keybind. I've tried castsequences and macro'ing them all together, and this is what I'm currently using:

    #showtooltip
    /use [mod:shift] Guardian of Ancient Kings
    /castsequence reset=180 Divine Favor, Avenging Wrath
    /use Holy Avenger
    /use 10


    Anyone have any thoughts on what the best way to manage our CDs is?
    I keybind them all separately. Tsulong was really the only one I had it all macroed together(along with a cast sequence). But having them keybound seperately and then a macro for the situations you really want to pop them all at once is a good way to handle it.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-03-26 at 04:57 PM.

  6. #246
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I keybind them all separately. Tsulong was really the only one I had it all macroed together.
    This, honestly, Tsulong is a special case because you are trying to do so many things at once - you want to use up to 4 cooldowns at once AND potion, AND try to time them correctly (Guardian being the main one), AND trying to click stupid Light of Day things.

    That, and also if you are doing two Light of Days in a row you will have to be very fast on clicking the second buff in order to make the full use of them.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    This, honestly, Tsulong is a special case because you are trying to do so many things at once - you want to use up to 4 cooldowns at once AND potion, AND try to time them correctly (Guardian being the main one), AND trying to click stupid Light of Day things.

    That, and also if you are doing two Light of Days in a row you will have to be very fast on clicking the second buff in order to make the full use of them.
    I'm just trying to understand the merits of having 3-4 different key binds for cool downs. There aren't many examples I can think of where I *wouldnt* want to use most of them at once. My macro allows me to use favor wings and guardian separately, but pops holy avenger whenever I use any CDs. If a fight didn't have significant burst throughput periods, I'd just spec out of avenger anyway.

    So yeah I already have an absurd amount of key binds and I'm just trying to see if there is a compelling reason to add 3 more :P

  8. #248
    Not all situations require the use of all of our healing cooldowns at once. A good example would be Megaera. Since each head takes ~1 minute, I'd rather space out my cooldowns over all of the rampages so I have one available for each one. In general, I think it's a good idea to gauge what kind of damage comes out and use 1 or maybe 2 cooldowns accordingly as most likely, the same heavy raid damage will occur again before your first cooldown is finished cooling down

  9. #249
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Ji-Kun is another example.

  10. #250
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Pretty much almost every fight is an example. I find more instances where spreading out cooldowns is more beneficial over blowing them all at once all the time. When you only macro them together and do not put them individually on your bar you will not be able to fully utilize them. You will just blow them all at once for every situation you need cooldowns, even if the healing output is overkill for the current damage going out.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Ji-Kun is another example.
    And on fights where cooldowns aren't strictly necessary you should just cycle through them for efficiency and to ensure they get some use.

    We have that many cooldowns we can almost always have a cooldown up when we need one. Using them all at once just seems.... reckless.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Ji-Kun is another example.
    I was hoping for a more in-depth analysis :P plus I assume you're talking about ji-kun heroic? Normal was a joke to heal, I may have used cool downs at the end when we had juveniles up but that's about it.

    Remember I'm not talking about blowing all 4 of our cool downs at once, just 2 basically, and the validity of a castsequence for wings and favor. Like I said, if avenger is overkill I'll just not spec into it for that fight, or use it as a mana saver prior to real damage. Magaera 10N I definitely don't see the merit of spreading out cooldowns. We take turns popping all our cool downs and its very easy to manage the devastates.

    Sorry I'm being belligerent about , I just really want to hear the best possible argument against my methodology

  13. #253
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    I was hoping for a more in-depth analysis :P plus I assume you're talking about ji-kun heroic? Normal was a joke to heal, I may have used cool downs at the end when we had juveniles up but that's about it.
    If you're popping multiple CD's, it's often all going to overheal - it's not like a DPS where it's always going to be multiplicative with each other. That's actually one of the first things I corrected when I switched from DPS to healing.

    Multiple CD's aren't always bad - you need to evaluate how frequent bursts are and how often the CD's are needed. If you do use multiple CD's there should be a method to the madness. All CD's are different - I found GoAK can synergize very well with HA. Same goes with Favor. Wings is more of a straight throughput. More movement? HA and DF are better than Wings. For instance on Zor'lok HM, you have 2-3 very high damage AoE bursts (force and verve) followed by almost 2 minutes of no damage. You can sync CD's.

    It is almost always better to have two healers use a cooldown on burst 1, then another cooldown on burst 2, than to have 1 healer use 2 cooldowns on burst 1, and another healer use 2 cooldowns on burst 2.

    Also I am talking about relevant content, whether it's normals for some people, or heroics for other people, I'm talking about content that is challenging. Obviously easy/outgeared/"farm" content will be a joke to heal, honestly no matter what you do so long as you are just spamming :P

  14. #254
    I'm not sure how you can have that many binds for a Holydin that take priority over having your CDs bound individually, Heals + Hands + Cleanse and a few various utility CDs barely even make up a bar let alone the ~40 KBs you have access to on a regular layout

  15. #255
    If you feel like you dont have enough keybinds for your cds then click them. Whatever you do, dont make sequence macros for ur cds.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I'm not sure how you can have that many binds for a Holydin that take priority over having your CDs bound individually, Heals + Hands + Cleanse and a few various utility CDs barely even make up a bar let alone the ~40 KBs you have access to on a regular layout
    holy light,divine light,flash of light,holy shock,eternal flame,divine plea, beacon,L90 talent, salv, holy radiance, LoD, Rebuke, HoJ, cleanse, blinding light, divine protection, divine shield, lay on hands, BoP, devo aura

    I can only reach 1-5 reasonably without moving my hand from WASD so the fact that a bar is 12 abilities long doesn't mean much. efficiently usable keybinds > more keybinds.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 01:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It is almost always better to have two healers use a cooldown on burst 1, then another cooldown on burst 2, than to have 1 healer use 2 cooldowns on burst 1, and another healer use 2 cooldowns on burst 2.
    Interesting point, but can you justify that? mathematically (assuming the cooldowns are multiplicative) its better for one healer to use two cooldowns, so I don't really see where you're coming from.

    you're right that popping multiple cooldowns *can* lead to overheal, but theres no reason you can't just heal with more efficient spells. The only issue would be wasting cooldowns that are needed soon after, but that's going to be the case whether you use one or two. Holy Avenger is the only cooldown that can be a huge waste because its so much of a throughput increase, but I don't see a problem with modulating throughput by spell choice rather than by cooldowns.


    I am also only talking about relevant content. I'm a little undergeared (ilvl500) for t15 heroics, but I dont think that's forced me to chance my healing style too much.

  17. #257
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Interesting point, but can you justify that? mathematically (assuming the cooldowns are multiplicative) its better for one healer to use two cooldowns, so I don't really see where you're coming from.
    You're also placing a lot of dependence on one healer at that point. You can combine that with the fact that different healers have different types of heals as CD's (direct, HoT, absorb) and that it's best not to stack too much of a single one of them.

    For instance consider smart heals - do you want a smart heal healing 5 people for 70% more and another smart heal that is unbuffed, or do you want a smart heal healing 5 people for 30% more followed by a second smart heal healing 5 different people for 30% more. More coverage that way. (This is more, actually, of a 25m perspective, but it does work out similar to 10m).

    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    you're right that popping multiple cooldowns *can* lead to overheal, but theres no reason you can't just heal with more efficient spells.
    What "more efficient spells" are you talking about? If you're popping DF + AW just to Holy Light...



    Again I'm not saying "never stack cooldowns." There are times and places for it, but honestly I think such fights are more exception than norm. A lot of burst raid damage in this tier comes on 1 minute CD's.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-03-27 at 07:59 AM.

  18. #258
    The Patient
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    Hi Dennis,
    Regarding your binding issues, I your natural hand position is WASD and you run short on keys to bind your spells to, I would recommend you to get a razor Naga if you can afford it. It allows you to bind all your healing spells and hand spells plus other utility spells like rebuke on to your mouse.
    Other than that, I can easyily reach q,e,r,t, f, g, y, x, c, v from WASD and I like to use these for binds as well. Also, I usually bind S to an ability because back paddeling is bad anyway. Combine these with 1-5(I reach 6 but I have pretty large hands) plus the key left to 1 and multiply them by 2 or 3(depending on whether you can conveniently reach shift, ctrl and alt) and there are quite some binds you can use


    Macroing your cds into one poewerful macro is fine but doing it for the sake of saving keybinds seems like a bad reason to do it. If you have to, you should always be able to use them seperately.

  19. #259
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    I would look for ways adjust your gameplay to expand the amount of potential binds at your disposal because the number you need is just going to keep getting bigger.

    Macroing all your cooldowns and not having binds for each spell separately limits you for obviously reasons. You should always give yourself the option to use them separately. That is really all there is to it. We have given you plenty of reasons on why it more beneficial to bind them separately but you seem to just gloss over them and would rather have people just agree with you.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-03-27 at 02:37 PM.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    holy light,divine light,flash of light,holy shock,eternal flame,divine plea, beacon,L90 talent, salv, holy radiance, LoD, Rebuke, HoJ, cleanse, blinding light, divine protection, divine shield, lay on hands, BoP, devo aura

    I can only reach 1-5 reasonably without moving my hand from WASD so the fact that a bar is 12 abilities long doesn't mean much. efficiently usable keybinds > more keybinds.
    `123456QERTFG|ZXCV + modifiers = way more keys than you need without even using mouse buttons, and all the binds dont need to be that easy to reach provided they're easier than clicking

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