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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerfax View Post
    There are a few issues that I need to fix due to the new stat priorities. Basically just go Mastery gems if you're running Mastery or Haste if you're stacking Haste. Ill clear that up in the guide.

    As for gemming, Im currently running with a focus on socket bonuses. I think I will likely stick to something like that and just add more sparkling as I feel necessary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Changed up the Reforging and stat sections a bit to try to clarify that Haste and Mastery builds are both viable and it comes down more to mana longevity vs. throughput as to which you should follow. If I need to clarify anything else, please let me know.
    Yes please, I know that everyone thinks, that 2 points off stats worth 1 point of Intellect. But why? I cant find any maths around this problem My only question now is, if its better to hold INT as primary stat (so geming INT into red, or INT with haste/mastery/spirit in yellow, and offstat combination in green), or geming only offstats. Thats last thing, i am thinking of.
    Last edited by Semito; 2013-09-12 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerfax View Post
    There are a few issues that I need to fix due to the new stat priorities. Basically just go Mastery gems if you're running Mastery or Haste if you're stacking Haste. Ill clear that up in the guide.

    As for gemming, Im currently running with a focus on socket bonuses. I think I will likely stick to something like that and just add more sparkling as I feel necessary.
    Based on the work Kolori did, I don't think stacking haste over mastery for [notwithstanding breakpoints] is preferable, especially at extreme levels where it would require more spirit too.

    The main questions I think you need to clear up is Int vs mastery, (eg. int and mastery or pure mastery/haste on a yellow if no regen needed?) value of the new set bonuses, and gemming/stats prio in general. I'm not 100% sure myself, came here for clarification and got even more confused :P

  3. #423
    To oggy:

    I am talking only about EF build. It is also good to understand, that your benefit from haste is not only the 13th tick of EF. We can say for sure, that going pure mastery with EF is a bad way (I saw numbers, it sucks, if its right). Going only haste means, you need more regen so you cant go OOM during fight (I cant afford this right now, with my low gear - maybe with HC pieces). So I assumed, that the best way in my gearing strategy will be (and i guess with 553 items it will be still the same) a combination of mastery and haste.

    And now, if I want to have haste on my gear, it would have some personal cap (due regen limits for example.), and this is the value, where i get the 13th tick of EF. So my mana regen can stay on the same level and i dont loose too much of my mastery for progress.

    Please tell me, that I am not stupid, because I am confused too and very very much

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Semito View Post
    To oggy:

    I am talking only about EF build. It is also good to understand, that your benefit from haste is not only the 13th tick of EF. We can say for sure, that going pure mastery with EF is a bad way (I saw numbers, it sucks, if its right). Going only haste means, you need more regen so you cant go OOM during fight (I cant afford this right now, with my low gear - maybe with HC pieces). So I assumed, that the best way in my gearing strategy will be (and i guess with 553 items it will be still the same) a combination of mastery and haste.

    And now, if I want to have haste on my gear, it would have some personal cap (due regen limits for example.), and this is the value, where i get the 13th tick of EF. So my mana regen can stay on the same level and i dont loose too much of my mastery for progress.

    Please tell me, that I am not stupid, because I am confused too and very very much
    Think I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. xD 545~ ilvl, casual guild that clears things eventually, likes to keep current on things, but not spend TOO much time working out the math! I'm going to the the same as you tonight, I think it's smart not stupid Was pulling nice numbers last night, 150-200k on some bosses with around 5k haste and 14.5k spirit. Mana is still kinda a problem for me but I think I'll gem int+haste now and try to reach 7170 for tonight

    I love my mastery, but for tonight I'll be down to around 8000~, with the ef build. Haven't tried SS yet, I'm just trying to get used to the EF way first! So I'm trying for 7170 haste, 8000~ mastery, and around 15500 spirit. We'll see how it goes, but for now I'm feeling pretty good about my pala.

    ps. I haven't started tracking IH in raidframes yet, but I feel like it's something we should certainly be doing now that we use LoD to refresh shields instead of EF.

  5. #425
    The Patient Kerfax's Avatar
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    For the math on the issue I'd advise you to read up on Bouchbagette's blog who is my primary source for numbers. He breaks down secondary stat stuff and also goes into the different talents and how they've performed off of his findings.

    I can only tell you that personally I'm still trying to stack spirit. I toss in Purified gems in red sockets and Zen gems in yellow, but other paladins do completely different things. Some throw in Int wherever they can, others stack even more spirit than I do. Its really hard to try to say precisely what the best way to do things is, but I think the one thing that is universal is go with spirit until you feel comfortable.

  6. #426
    I understand that the math indicates haste, but that's for a set rotation and constant healing.

    Having gone full blown spirit, gearing for mastery, with the legendary cloak, I think spirit>mastery>meh ends up being the priority. I would even venture to guess crit would be better than haste after the 3k breakpoint. With full Spirit, you can non stop cast HS/HR throwing EF's on people and when you overheal with Chi-Ji up, it just gets spread out. On top of that, spirit gets exponentially better with DPlea. I think I'll end up cutting off spirit around 20k and then gem for int for throughput.

  7. #427
    am i missing something, or is divine plea glyph op/mandatory (at least for undergeared people like myself)? minimum mana you get is always 36,000. i have 9100 spirit. non glyphed would give me 12k (with no minimum). even at 15k spirit the non gylphed DP gives only 20k.

    am i missing something or will mana just not be an issue for me in like 5k+ more spirit?

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Synfiction View Post
    am i missing something, or is divine plea glyph op/mandatory (at least for undergeared people like myself)? minimum mana you get is always 36,000. i have 9100 spirit. non glyphed would give me 12k (with no minimum). even at 15k spirit the non gylphed DP gives only 20k.

    am i missing something or will mana just not be an issue for me in like 5k+ more spirit?
    If it is glyphed at your spirit level you would get 18,427 mana. If it isn't glyphed you would get 36,855 mana. All you are achieving with the glyph is using a glyph slot and an extra GCD every minute. Not sure why you think a useless glyph is OP.

    Edit to add: Ahh I see you have done a herp derp. Remember you get the mana every 3 seconds for 9 seconds and you are only counting it once instead of 3 times. At 9.1k Spirit you get the 12k mana 3 times for 36k total mana and at 15k Spirit you get 20k 3 times for 60k total mana.
    Last edited by Ishau; 2013-09-16 at 05:37 AM.

  9. #429
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    First Week 5.4 Reactions:

    * Used 0.5 Intellect > Spirit > Mastery > Haste priority. Did not go for a haste Breakpoint (except briefly for two bosses). Obviously that sample size tells me nothing about Haste versus Mastery anyway.

    * Spirit: I was very comfortable with Mana for the most part with 14k spirit, very rarely going OOM (until maybe the end) and for mid-pulls on Garrosh I was at a low of ~30% mana, which I feel is a good comfort zone in case things go wrong early.

    * Intellect: With the other paladin in raid maintaining her Mastery > 0.5 Intellect gemming, we were both around the high end of the meters for most fights alternating who was top (and sometimes losing to the shaman, disc priests, etc.) I can definitely see a bit of disparity between the healing sources. Illuminated Healing still seems very strong at our gear level even without EF extending it. However most of my healing was sourced from EF, Beacon and Spirit of Chi-Ji with still a decent IH contribution. I was probably not playing very optimally with the "new" build, as I did not put most of my effort into blanketing (for the cloak proc) and instead used EF often as a single target heal. Unfortunately I volunteered to sit for Thok this week and did not get to try selfless healer out.

    * Haste: Switching briefly to 3506 Haste did nothing and if anything only seemed to lower my healing done. I am still extremely capable of quick casts due with IoL procs (though that is very RNG dependent) and haste bonuses. Given the % of healing IH is doing for me, I am not sure if going more haste is good. Breakpoints seem absolutely worthless in my opinion but I would need more verification to support my reasoning behind it.

  10. #430
    In your gear level, how far are you from the first haste breakpoint?

  11. #431
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    In your gear level, how far are you from the first haste breakpoint?
    To get the 3506 breakpoint I reforged ~1550 (if I remember) mastery to haste.

  12. #432
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deipotent View Post
    I understand that the math indicates haste, but that's for a set rotation and constant healing.

    Having gone full blown spirit, gearing for mastery, with the legendary cloak, I think spirit>mastery>meh ends up being the priority. I would even venture to guess crit would be better than haste after the 3k breakpoint. With full Spirit, you can non stop cast HS/HR throwing EF's on people and when you overheal with Chi-Ji up, it just gets spread out. On top of that, spirit gets exponentially better with DPlea. I think I'll end up cutting off spirit around 20k and then gem for int for throughput.
    I don't see how you feel you need to go full blown spirit. 14-16k should suffice. At 15k I have no mana issues whatsoever.

  13. #433
    The Patient Kerfax's Avatar
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    I'm currently running with the 3106 breakpoint and then full to Mastery although I'm still favoring Spirit for gems. I think I'm at 17k Spirit, but based on what I've seen I think I'll be sticking to 3106 Haste, reforging to Mastery after that, and gemming with a focus on Int. I'll have to see how that goes and then look around at logs of other players.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    If it is glyphed at your spirit level you would get 18,427 mana. If it isn't glyphed you would get 36,855 mana. All you are achieving with the glyph is using a glyph slot and an extra GCD every minute. Not sure why you think a useless glyph is OP.

    Edit to add: Ahh I see you have done a herp derp. Remember you get the mana every 3 seconds for 9 seconds and you are only counting it once instead of 3 times. At 9.1k Spirit you get the 12k mana 3 times for 36k total mana and at 15k Spirit you get 20k 3 times for 60k total mana.
    LOL, i guess reading is too hard for me. thanks for clearing that up

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    First Week 5.4 Reactions:

    * Used 0.5 Intellect > Spirit > Mastery > Haste priority
    I'm finding that (comparative to my fellow Holydin) the Haste build is superior to Mastery, provided you put more emphasis on Int once you've got the breakpoint rather than going towards Mastery. This is 10 man though, and I suspect that Haste breakpoints will be superior in 10 man, with Mastery being superior in 25 man, maybe with the 3k breakpoint as a minimum.

  16. #436
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I'm finding that (comparative to my fellow Holydin) the Haste build is superior to Mastery, provided you put more emphasis on Int once you've got the breakpoint rather than going towards Mastery. This is 10 man though, and I suspect that Haste breakpoints will be superior in 10 man, with Mastery being superior in 25 man, maybe with the 3k breakpoint as a minimum.
    I may be trying a different build tonight.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I'm finding that (comparative to my fellow Holydin) the Haste build is superior to Mastery, provided you put more emphasis on Int once you've got the breakpoint rather than going towards Mastery. This is 10 man though, and I suspect that Haste breakpoints will be superior in 10 man, with Mastery being superior in 25 man, maybe with the 3k breakpoint as a minimum.
    High haste build may be a bit problematic in heroics. At least last night I was struggling when 2 healing Norushen 10HC with 15.7k spirit, 9.5k mastery and with 3.5k haste BP. I am gemming int in red sockets and pure spirit in blues with int+mastery in oranges. With one trip down I was at 245k hps at berserk and really struggled to keep raid alive for last 30 secs due to being quite oom. With more haste I doubt I could have been able to keep everyone alive.

    I might try going for 2nd haste breakpoint at some point but not before I get some more gear (ilvl 549 atm). At least amplification trinket would be needed for that I think.

  18. #438
    So, in case anyone is looking at Selfless Healer, it's REALLY underrated at the moment.

    I dumped all spirit [I'm at ~7k] and went full int. Judge/HS on cd, use your HR/DL very wisely and you'll never go oom. The burst isn't AS much as EF spam, but the sustained is far higher.

    No one else is trying this out?

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Deipotent View Post
    So, in case anyone is looking at Selfless Healer, it's REALLY underrated at the moment.

    I dumped all spirit [I'm at ~7k] and went full int. Judge/HS on cd, use your HR/DL very wisely and you'll never go oom. The burst isn't AS much as EF spam, but the sustained is far higher.

    No one else is trying this out?
    I tried that on Norushen HC where it shold be really good but I couldn't as much troughput as with EF (not even close). I was about 8k spirit if I'm not mistaken.

  20. #440
    Blademaster Dolzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deipotent View Post
    So, in case anyone is looking at Selfless Healer, it's REALLY underrated at the moment.

    I dumped all spirit [I'm at ~7k] and went full int. Judge/HS on cd, use your HR/DL very wisely and you'll never go oom. The burst isn't AS much as EF spam, but the sustained is far higher.

    No one else is trying this out?
    I'll be trying this out monday. Here's my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...olzzy/advanced

    Care to link yours?

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