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  1. #101
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firegalus View Post
    I'll deliberately screw up my rotation under AW and check logs tonight, but i cant see why it would be different, I dont think AW modifies selectively, its a flat 20% buff to all damage, but the numbers i posted were from our 25man raid and included all buffs - got the closest 2 together i could find without any buff/debuff differences between the 2 casts

    And i dont see any "evidence" on that EJ link, just 1 person saying as fact without any numbers or reasoning, logically i cant think why being sub 20% of target health would have ANY influance reversing CS and J's position in the rotation

    Also the same poster is claiming that this: inq howaw tvaw tv5 inqes inqhpr how exo jaw cs j tv3 ss is the optimal rotation, which is wrong (with 5hp under avenging wrath, you should dump a tv, not a how) makes me also think that he doesnt have a grasp on what is optimal and makes me less inclined to believe his off the cuff and non proven claim of J ahead of CS in the sub 20% range
    Judgement will never be ahead of CS as long as Mastery exists. It will require a lot of class mechanic changes for this to happen no reason it would judgement will sit down where it belongs.


    OT it's not really spamming the topic while this topic is more dedicated to clcinfo the posts are in direct relation to the rotation part of clcinfo I don't see it being bad that it's here long as someone doesn't come in and start some argument.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Judgement will never be ahead of CS as long as Mastery exists. It will require a lot of class mechanic changes for this to happen no reason it would judgement will sit down where it belongs.


    OT it's not really spamming the topic while this topic is more dedicated to clcinfo the posts are in direct relation to the rotation part of clcinfo I don't see it being bad that it's here long as someone doesn't come in and start some argument.
    I agree ofc, but there is so much wrong and incorrect information posted about optimal rotation, some on forums here and some on elitist jerks forums, i thought it was worthwhile to state exactly what the optimal rotation was on this thread, sorry if that's slightly derailed the thread. I regularly see people asking what the optimal rotation actually is, and are given incorrect or non optimal replies.

    so to draw a line i will state again this is what i am using and what i and many others consider to be optimal (requires clcinfo alpha r272 + my edit for tv4aw, or wait for alpha r273)

    inq tv5 howaw tv4aw exoaw tvaw how exo cs j tv3 inqes ss

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  3. #103
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firegalus View Post
    I agree ofc, but there is so much wrong and incorrect information posted about optimal rotation, some on forums here and some on elitist jerks forums, i thought it was worthwhile to state exactly what the optimal rotation was on this thread, sorry if that's slightly derailed the thread. I regularly see people asking what the optimal rotation actually is, and are given incorrect or non optimal replies.

    so to draw a line i will state again this is what i am using and what i and many others consider to be optimal (requires clcinfo alpha r272 + my edit for tv4aw, or wait for alpha r273)

    inq tv5 howaw tv4aw exoaw tvaw how exo cs j tv3 inqes ss
    I don't think it has derailed the thread at all I'm adding to to the main post as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  4. #104
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    Adding my 2 cents I have never done anything but CS>J because the idea of it is retarded. Nevermind potentially leaving a dead gcd since u aren't using CS on cd which has a far shorter cooldown. This goes back into the ECD topics from wrath which is how you determined how optimal your rotation was which was usually only improved by using AHK becuase well no human can possibly do what the script program does for ret.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Firegalus View Post
    I agree ofc, but there is so much wrong and incorrect information posted about optimal rotation, some on forums here and some on elitist jerks forums, i thought it was worthwhile to state exactly what the optimal rotation was on this thread, sorry if that's slightly derailed the thread. I regularly see people asking what the optimal rotation actually is, and are given incorrect or non optimal replies.

    so to draw a line i will state again this is what i am using and what i and many others consider to be optimal (requires clcinfo alpha r272 + my edit for tv4aw, or wait for alpha r273)

    inq tv5 howaw tv4aw exoaw tvaw how exo cs j tv3 inqes ss
    Shouldn't Execution Sentence be included in the rotation?

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Arom View Post
    Shouldn't Execution Sentence be included in the rotation?
    inqes, it is

    Also looking at the new set bonus for 5.2 means existing 4 set will push judgement closer to CS in the rotation meaning all the baddies who prioritise it over CS wont be penalised as much, they should have put the bonus extra on CS

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Firegalus View Post
    I'll deliberately screw up my rotation under AW and check logs tonight, but i cant see why it would be different, I dont think AW modifies selectively, its a flat 20% buff to all damage, but the numbers i posted were from our 25man raid and included all buffs - got the closest 2 together i could find without any buff/debuff differences between the 2 casts

    And i dont see any "evidence" on that EJ link, just 1 person saying as fact without any numbers or reasoning, logically i cant think why being sub 20% of target health would have ANY influance reversing CS and J's position in the rotation

    Also the same poster is claiming that this: inq howaw tvaw tv5 inqes inqhpr how exo jaw cs j tv3 ss is the optimal rotation, which is wrong (with 5hp under avenging wrath, you should dump a tv, not a how) makes me also think that he doesnt have a grasp on what is optimal and makes me less inclined to believe his off the cuff and non proven claim of J ahead of CS in the sub 20% range
    I didn't say that was optimal, I only noticed that using something that is theorically wrong, my dps went high, which confuses me even more, cause if the theory seems wrong by a test, then i dont know anymore what to do to find out the best way.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by JediMa View Post
    I didn't say that was optimal, I only noticed that using something that is theorically wrong, my dps went high, which confuses me even more, cause if the theory seems wrong by a test, then i dont know anymore what to do to find out the best way.
    Gotta compare dem apples with apples, did you compare using identical buffs, same cd usage, same trinket procs at the same point and fight time, even the top rets have variation in there dps from one week to the next, you might have just got lucky with trinket proc's under cooldowns, who knows, you might have even done 1% more dps if you'd used the optimal one!

    Sit on the dummy with identical buffs for 30mins with each rotation and compare the results (even then your not really simulating what happens in a raid, but it is a more "predictable" control set)

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  9. #109
    Any idea where ES comes in the rotation is you have engineering as a profession?

    Seeing as ES itself and HoW scale massively with strength the 1920 proc every minute would make a macro that combines my gloves with ES virtually top Prio during AW and sub 20% correct?

    Possibly even top prio (or at near as damn it to make the rotation string simpler) at all times?

  10. #110
    You should have tracking for your trinkets and wpn ench as well, and pref wait for them to proc then use gloves+aw then es to get the most benefit out of it
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  11. #111
    For some reason I trusted in what was said in the last pages of this thread in regards to cs > j during AW and have been running with that for some time. Today I went over logs comparing mine and the other ret in the guild's logs on Tsulong tries last night. Turns out he does the j > cs prio and it's not even funny how much more damage it does. And I have 5 ilevels on him so yeah.

    If you need to see for yourselves check the log browser with this query string:

    [{"eventTypes": [6], "sourceNames": ["Rammjäger"]}, {"eventTypes": [6], "sourceNames": ["Enìgmà"]}, {"spellNames": ["Crusader Strike", "Hand of Light"], "eventTypes": [1], "sourceNames": ["Rammjäger"]}, {"spellNames": ["Judgment"], "eventTypes": [1], "sourceNames": ["Enìgmà"]}]

    At: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2vzyolzn597tykvj/log/?s=14483&e=14764

    One example is when during the last few seconds of an AW where my CS+HoL did 52958 and his J did 56410. The only differences in buffs here was that I had Dancing Steel up, while he did not! I guess some of these priorities will change again with 5.2 with the 4p change and Sword of Light buffs, but it still sucks that cs > j is spread as gospel here when it's very much untrue.

  12. #112
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ostwind View Post
    For some reason I trusted in what was said in the last pages of this thread in regards to cs > j during AW and have been running with that for some time. Today I went over logs comparing mine and the other ret in the guild's logs on Tsulong tries last night. Turns out he does the j > cs prio and it's not even funny how much more damage it does. And I have 5 ilevels on him so yeah.

    If you need to see for yourselves check the log browser with this query string:

    [{"eventTypes": [6], "sourceNames": ["Rammjäger"]}, {"eventTypes": [6], "sourceNames": ["Enìgmà"]}, {"spellNames": ["Crusader Strike", "Hand of Light"], "eventTypes": [1], "sourceNames": ["Rammjäger"]}, {"spellNames": ["Judgment"], "eventTypes": [1], "sourceNames": ["Enìgmà"]}]

    At: worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2vzyolzn597tykvj/log/?s=14483&e=14764

    One example is when during the last few seconds of an AW where my CS+HoL did 52958 and his J did 56410. The only differences in buffs here was that I had Dancing Steel up, while he did not! I guess some of these priorities will change again with 5.2 with the 4p change and Sword of Light buffs, but it still sucks that cs > j is spread as gospel here when it's very much untrue.
    Well first that is getting into more theory and less clcinfo however 4 seconds of data isn't valid proof of anything. There are millions of lines of combat logs proving exactly against this. But just to humor you.

    1. [22:53:36.301] Rammjäger casts Potion of Mogu Power
    2. You never used a potion.
    3. He has considerably better Trinkets than you do.
    4. You can't compare two unequal characters and look for the lower of the two character to come out ahead.
    5. Not enough data it's like beating on a target dummy for 1,000 white attacks or 1,000,000 white attacks.
    6. Was this between night and day phases? How do we know he didn't have double jeopardy up?
    7. CS > Judgement I'm sorry you feel otherwise but your feelings and 1 very small segment of data do not make it so.
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  13. #113
    I'm Rammjäger in the logs, i.e. _I_ am using the cs > j priority, but the lesser geared guy is doing more damage with judgment consistently. If he didn't use a pot that just speaks even more to how superior judgment is. There are 31 tries in there, and the segment I compare is right on the pull where we essentially do the exact same things except for the difference in priority during AW. In all the logs I checked his (the lesser geared guy) judgments are doing more damage than my CS. I don't know what sort of data you want me to pull up. You have 31 logs where we do the exact same things on a BL pull, all cooldowns and trinkets popped etc. and a lesser geared ret's judgments are doing more damage than my CS+HoL during AW. There's nothing else to it. I haven't gone through all logs but the ones I did, I never found a case where my CS+HoL outperformed his judgment.

    Sure it's a small sample, but considering the J > CS prio has been mathed out and simulated to perform better elsewhere, I figure this should suppoort those findings. Bring up a similar set of logs I can compare side by side like this where CS > J is the clear winner. Or some simulations, why not.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostwind View Post
    ..but considering the J > CS prio has been mathed out and simulated to perform better elsewhere, I figure this should suppoort those findings.
    Let me put this plainly, No you are wrong, if you read back a page or two, you will see my analysis and proof CS+Hand of Light > Judgement

    Can you link where you saw your mathed out and simulated proof?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Firegalus View Post
    Let me put this plainly, No you are wrong, if you read back a page or two, you will see my analysis and proof CS+Hand of Light > Judgement

    Can you link where you saw your mathed out and simulated proof?
    Hold on a second, your single data point is better evidence than mine? I can pull out several more comparisons from my logs where his judgment is clearly superior to my CS+HoL where we have similar procs, if you'd like.

    Discussion over at EJ has placed J > CS during AW for some time now.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostwind View Post
    Hold on a second, your single data point is better evidence than mine? I can pull out several more comparisons from my logs where his judgment is clearly superior to my CS+HoL where we have similar procs, if you'd like.

    Discussion over at EJ has placed J > CS during AW for some time now.
    The "Judge is ahead of CS" on elitist jerks, is totally non fact based and without ANY evidence (in fact it was posted by someone who didnt account for HoL's damage)

    My single data point which compares an identically geared and buffed player doing a CS and J under the exactly the same conditions and buffs, is easily a better control than your evidence where you are comparing your CS+HoL to someone else's judgment. If you want to do the compare properly, go and log with yourself and perform a series of CS and J and compare the results there, check that you dont have any proc's activate or fall off between the two attacks.

    If you want to come here and disprove the fact that CS+HoL deals less damage than judgement, your going to have to go and get some proper evidence to convince the likes of me, Requital and Anaxie

    [22:53:38.641] Rammjäger Crusader Strike Tsulong 32416
    [22:53:39.391] Rammjäger Hand of Light Tsulong 11537
    [22:53:39.841] Rammjäger Judgment Tsulong 39999

    [22:53:38.641] Enìgmà Judgment Tsulong 37020
    [22:53:39.841] Enìgmà Crusader Strike Tsulong 33953
    [22:53:40.651] Enìgmà Hand of Light Tsulong 11974
    Last edited by Firegalus; 2013-02-28 at 10:21 AM.

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  17. #117
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    Hey Paladins
    Now i have been reading alot but can not still see the "Right" rotaion for ret with 4set bonus. Atm i using the rotation the CLTret has implementet.
    So if any have a rotation to share then please do

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Firegalus View Post
    Stuff you said.
    Why do you say one thing and then do the complete opposite? I'm specifically talking about the prio under AW, so the comparison should be made under AW. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how his judgment does so much more damage under the same conditions (during AW) than my CS+HoL.

    Oh and here's a data point from an Anaxie log.

    [21:14:09.990] Anaxie Judgment Tsulong *113618*
    [21:14:10.915] Anaxie casts Crusader Strike on Tsulong
    [21:14:11.211] Anaxie Crusader Strike Tsulong 36357
    [21:14:11.964] Anaxie Hand of Light Tsulong 17905

    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rikmktlx7v23a2fl/log/?s=10753&e=11237

    The J is obviously a crit so let's upscale the CS to a crit too. Doing this puts the CS+HoL at 111773 damage. The difference isn't huge but it's there. And just a few lines down in the same log we get another example, this time outside of AW:

    [21:14:22.225] Anaxie Judgment Tsulong *86744*
    [21:14:23.332] Anaxie Crusader Strike Tsulong *54801*
    [21:14:24.080] Anaxie Hand of Light Tsulong 26988

    Add them together and I think you'll find J wins again. There are several more examples showing the same thing. Sometimes you'll find one where CS+HoL actually did more damage though. The weapon based damage of CS has a greater variance and perhaps if all stars align it will do more damage than J, but it seems that on average we're better off prioritizing J during AW.

  19. #119
    I do not know the math behind what is taking place but just looking at random samplings of top 40 ret paladins on Terrace of Endless Spring fights and Heart of Fear for both 25N and 25LFR - Judgement is generally hitting about 50% harder than Crusader Strike. HoL will not make up for that much difference in damage. When on training dummies, I had the exact same results as Firegalus and thought the matter closed. Maybe there is a gear inflection point? Currently until someone can prove the math (to me) one way or another, I am recommending that people check for themselves as to whether J or CS+HoL hits harder and prioritize accordingly under AW+SW.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Firegalus View Post
    inqes, it is

    Also looking at the new set bonus for 5.2 means existing 4 set will push judgement closer to CS in the rotation meaning all the baddies who prioritise it over CS wont be penalised as much, they should have put the bonus extra on CS
    I think that people caring about J>CS or CS>J priority are far from being baddies.

    Also, why do we have to depend on tier sets bonuses for a few % increases?? That should be really extra, making us more badass.. The T14 2P should be baked into TV damage, future T14 4P into Judgment.. And future T15 follows the same trend.. At least it's a bit different although not ground breaking.

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