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  1. #1

    Shadow Word: Pain refreshing with new patch

    Searched but couldn't find a clear answer.

    Do you refresh sw: pain before it expires or do you let it drop complety before reapplying - especially considering Divine Insight.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Giant; 2012-08-30 at 09:10 AM.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Immediately after last tick just like DP used to be.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Immediately after last tick just like DP used to be.
    DPS Loss.

    Best to re-apply just before the final tick -> Tick gets added on so you don't miss out on potential DI/Mastery procs and the DoT doesn't drop off.

  4. #4
    I like the power word: Solace thingy, not exactly sure it is worth the pain though :/

  5. #5
    The Patient allaiva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namliam View Post
    I like the power word: Solace thingy, not exactly sure it is worth the pain though :/
    Last I looked sims had that as the smallest dps increase and the largest headache. You're better off with FDCL atm (if you don't have DTR) or Mindbender for simplicity's sake.

    That being said, definitely cast it just before the dot expires, if you cast it just after then you're resetting your tick timer as opposed to just rolling off the last tick.

  6. #6
    Most DOTs work the same way now: the last tick can be rolled into an extra tick on the next application. Refresh after the penultimate tick, but before the final tick.

  7. #7
    I have another dot-question:
    Dots still need to be refreshed manualy for procs right? They did not change them so they adapt to your actual stats, right?

  8. #8
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlefreak View Post
    I have another dot-question:
    Dots still need to be refreshed manualy for procs right? They did not change them so they adapt to your actual stats, right?
    Yes, DoTs still work on a 'when you cast it' basis, so if you cast, say VT, when you have your Pot, Lightweave (assuming tailor), PT, Synapse Springs, etc all up, then refresh early you lose DPS. Likewise, if you refresh at the beginning of a PT proc, provided you have more SP than when you previously applied the DoT it's a (very small) DPS increase.

    I like the power word: Solace thingy, not exactly sure it is worth the pain though :/
    Insanity only does well in Multi-DoT scenarios. Currently with the way DW:TR works with FDCL Insanity may well actually perform above FDCL on fights involving mid-low health adds, however I'm not certain of this as FDCL is insanely good, even with frustrating procs from DW:TR.

  9. #9
    The Patient allaiva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    ...I'm not certain of this as FDCL is insanely good, even with frustrating procs from DW:TR.
    Until it eats a full DP...

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allaiva View Post
    Until it eats a full DP...
    Proc lasts 6 seconds, DP lasts 6 seconds. Unless you get a proc RIGHT as you apply DP you can wait for DP to fall off/is about to fall off then smack your Spike.
    If you mindlessly smash stuff right as they proc ofc you'll get unwanted results..

  11. #11
    "Surge of Darkness" (aka the Buff you gain from FDCL) lasts 10 seconds, you are not forced to use that ms immediately :P
    Source
    Last edited by turtlefreak; 2012-08-31 at 04:33 PM.

  12. #12
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Most DOTs work the same way now: the last tick can be rolled into an extra tick on the next application. Refresh after the penultimate tick, but before the final tick.
    Good use of penultimate

    I shall now always explain dot refreshes in this vocabulary! ^^
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  13. #13
    Actually did some maths on the subject of this here:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...9#post18243599

    On MY priest it looks like SWI - in a semi perfect world which sims usually are - is about 1k dps increase over FDCL.
    In reality though I think FDCL is more forgiving vs SWI thus is more likely to be near "optimal" performance, where SWI will be a little tougher to maintain perfectly.

    This is also full 100% single target, not going into what if there are 2 Boss targets and 3 adds at medium hps and 6 at low HP followed by 2 new mini bosses pulled at the same time.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    DPS Loss.

    Best to re-apply just before the final tick -> Tick gets added on so you don't miss out on potential DI/Mastery procs and the DoT doesn't drop off.
    SW:P Tick ... SW:P Tick ... Final SW:P Tick.On Cast SW:P Tick ... SW:P Tick

    Please explain how that's a DPS loss? Was casting DP immediately after the last tick in Cata a DPS loss in your eyes too?

    lol

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    SW:P Tick ... SW:P Tick ... Final SW:P Tick.On Cast SW:P Tick ... SW:P Tick

    Please explain how that's a DPS loss? Was casting DP immediately after the last tick in Cata a DPS loss in your eyes too?

    lol
    Because technically it ends up as: final tick => latency + human error => reapplication.
    It's beneficial to refresh before the last tick goes off. You don't lose anything by doing that, and eliminate the latency and error from the equation.

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celentes View Post
    Because technically it ends up as: final tick => latency + human error => reapplication.
    It's beneficial to refresh before the last tick goes off. You don't lose anything by doing that, and eliminate the latency and error from the equation.
    Who doles out advice assuming the person receiving said advice isn't good? Unless it's been otherwise stated I will always give out advice as though the recipient is competent and capable.

    Hell you could refresh it right after the second to last tick if you're MS and reaction time are both THAT BAD.
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2012-09-01 at 12:49 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Who doles out advice assuming the person receiving said advice isn't good? Unless it's been otherwise stated I will always give out advice as though the recipient is competent and capable.

    Hell you could refresh it right after the second to last tick if you're MS and reaction time are both THAT BAD.
    It is simply impossible to refresh in NO time (because refreshing between penultimate and last tick is exactly the same as refreshing zero time after the final tick).
    It does not have anything to do with anybody being bad but with not being a machine.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Who doles out advice assuming the person receiving said advice isn't good? Unless it's been otherwise stated I will always give out advice as though the recipient is competent and capable.

    Hell you could refresh it right after the second to last tick if you're MS and reaction time are both THAT BAD.
    I don't think this is a correct approach in general. No human alive can reapply the dot in the very same moment after it falls. Even if it is so, there's a technical limit to how it is theoretically possible due to the variety of time it takes for a packet of data to go off your wow client and reach the wow server. Ping does vary slightly all the time, so even if you were Dr. Manhatten, it wouldn't be possible due to technical limitations.
    Whatever the minimal loss it is, it is still a loss. There's absolutely no point in reapplying the dot rather than refreshing it since the moment they've changed dot mechanics.

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehFurbolg View Post
    It is simply impossible to refresh in NO time (because refreshing between penultimate and last tick is exactly the same as refreshing zero time after the final tick).
    It does not have anything to do with anybody being bad but with not being a machine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celentes View Post
    I don't think this is a correct approach in general. No human alive can reapply the dot in the very same moment after it falls. Even if it is so, there's a technical limit to how it is theoretically possible due to the variety of time it takes for a packet of data to go off your wow client and reach the wow server. Ping does vary slightly all the time, so even if you were Dr. Manhatten, it wouldn't be possible due to technical limitations.
    The three periods in between Ticks represents the baseline 3 seconds between ticks. Therefore one can tell that the single period between the Final and Initial ticks denotes roughly 1 second, that's assuming a .75 second reaction time + 250 MS. I'm pretty sure that's easy enough for 90%+ of the player base which largely includes those not blessed with mechanical faculties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celentes View Post
    Whatever the minimal loss it is, it is still a loss. There's absolutely no point in reapplying the dot rather than refreshing it since the moment they've changed dot mechanics.
    As I said previously you should have ideally been recasting DP immediately after the last tick throughout Cata. It's the same thing in MoP for SW:P.

    VT? Yeah recast to land about half a second before expiring. SW:P pre-5.0? Yeah recast about half a second before expiring.
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2012-09-01 at 01:10 PM.

  20. #20
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    SW:P Tick ... SW:P Tick ... Final SW:P Tick.On Cast SW:P Tick ... SW:P Tick

    Please explain how that's a DPS loss? Was casting DP immediately after the last tick in Cata a DPS loss in your eyes too?

    lol
    No need to be condescending.

    DoTs since Cataclysm have worked differently, meaning that when re-applied before the final tick, the tick is simply added onto the new duration without loss. This means that you don't lose DPS from latency. If you wait for the final tick of the DoT to go off (ie, the DoT drops off) and then re-apply, even if you're 100% perfect as a player your latency comes into account and you lose DPS, even if it's minimal.

    If you bothered to read through the threads on Shadowpriest.com (I really can't be bothered to find you a link) you'd find that the actual 'ideal' times to reapply DoTs was around the 6 second remaining mark, purely because of how DoTs work in Cataclysm. The only reason people don't do this, is because by refreshing DoTs too early means less Mind Flays -> greater DPS loss.

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