1. #1

    Is DK really that bad now? (for PvP)

    So i do have an 85 DK, but he is naked so its a little hard to test out for PvP. But it seems like everyone in trade chat is saying that DK's are completely weak and broken.

    Can anyone give me a quick and dirty on how DK's (any spec) are doing in PvP?

    Why is he naked? Don't ask.
    And i have used my item restore for the month.


  2. #2
    Obv I havent done arenas because their closed but I have been doing random BGs a lot. I was dual wield frost at first which I did not really like in the long run, then I switched to 2 handed Frost and its working out much better. I'm in mostly Ruthless gear as well, cept for the Cata Wpn and gloves/rings. I have been stomping people in regular BGs. Warlocks are tough, holy pallies are tough, and rogues are always tough lol. I still do top dmg and KBs usually.

  3. #3
    Your realm must be full of newbies. Dk's are very good (both unholy and frost).

  4. #4
    Dks are as crappy as they were in cata. No changes here.
    Also, if you go outside your capitol city and check the classes of the duelers, you will see mostly godmode mages, ret palas, shadow priests and the obvious deluded warriors getting their asses kicked by pretty much everyone and still screaming "warrs own l2p noob". You won't be seeing dks unless you're lucky, I wonder why.
    Last edited by Lord Gaga; 2012-08-30 at 05:54 PM.

  5. #5
    Multi-Glad DK here.

    Right now, we're pretty much where we were overall, pretty crappy, but not the worst, but a few changes I've noticed.

    1) Mobility is much much better provided you've picked Death's Advance. Hotkey it well and remember to use Chains of Ice. It really is much less painful.

    2) Even with the above change, the 15 second CD on Mind Freeze makes getting to a target not as much of a defensive as it was before against casters.

    3) We really don't have talent options for PvP. Tier 1 is a toss up depending on if you're doing BGs (Unholy Blight) or Arena (Plague Leach). Tier 2 is Lichborne, make no mistake about it. Purgatory is OK, but it's more like spirit of redemption against execute classes. Against another DK, a soul reaper landing AFTER a purgatory proc, a warrior's execute and kill shot will take you beyond what is healable. Tier 3 is Death's Advance... Asphixiate DRs with stuns and pretty much every class has some kind of stun. Tier 4 is interesting. Conversion is wonderful if you're fleeing as frost, just build RP with howling blast as you go. Death Pact is great for duels and burst healing. With mastery, Death Siphon does better single target damage than Howling Blast and is a 2x crit. Personally, Death Siphon seems to be the most controllable, but hardest to use. Tier 5 you can either be lazy, or pick Blood Tap which gives more Death Runes. That synergies well with Death Siphon and Necrotic Strike. As Unholy this isn't too big a deal, but as frost, the death runes are a major plus.

    4) Now that rogue poisons aren't broken to hell, smoke bomb is off prep and rogues can't have both shadow step and prep, we actually don't fare so badly against them anymore. By contrast, classes that can heal at all have very powerful off-healing and are nearly impossible to defeat. In a team setting, it's impossible to defeat healer + hybrid, but the more people you add, the more burst.

    5) If you go with my above talent choices, we defiantly have more buttons to press. This vastly contrasts all other classes, save Druid who stayed about the same. If you don't go with my above choices, you can eliminate 3 keybinds and one CD-less move (get rolling blood, chillblains, runic empowerment and death pact). If all things are equal, I think people will start picking the passive talents over the active talents. I think active ones need to be stronger, at least in theory, to survive. Thus why Blood Tap is technically stronger (See blue post).

    6) You still won't see us carrying a flag as blood just yet. Tier 6 talents will help, especially desecrated ground.

    7) Glyph choices are interesting and fun. I'm running AMS for lichborne healing, IBF for breaking stuns and Icy Touch. Icy touch will be a requirement for DKs, period. I've removed HoPs, Freedoms, Nature's Grasp and Ice Barrier just to name a few things. Ice barrier is 44k HP, thus, an icy touch theoretically is 44k damage... ouch! IBF is going to depend on the comp you're facing. Against combat rogues and frost mages, it's a must! Against others it's a toss up. AMS helps Lichborne stock up on RP, but I'm finding the amount it brings in underwhelming.

    As for other glyph options, Death and Decay, Death Coil and Undispelable Diseases are all viable options. Death Coil's shield is a bit underwhelming for the cost... we all know more pressure is often better defense than a small shield. Undispelable diseases doesn't matter as much because dispels are on an 8 second CD and priests can no longer dispel diseases. No monks in the game yet, so paladins are the only ones who can dispel it, including ret paladins. Just reapply, no problem. They need to save dispel for more important things anyway. Death and Decay is interesting... a 50% slow in an area is like the old desecrated ground. This is my top pick to replace IBF against low-stun teams. There are times where I'm frost-rune starved, and unholy runes seem to be much less spammable now that necrotic strike is death rune.

    8) In world PvP, control undead can get you some really cool buffs. I've found a haste buff, 10% HP and more. As frost and blood, keybindings get waaay out of control. Believe me, you're going to want to play around with this. (Side Note, warlocks need to play with enslave demon as well... if you talent pet sac, it can be a major DPS increase.)

  6. #6
    Frost is ruined, it feels like playing a paladin now.

    Howling Blast, Frost Strike and Necrotic Strike made it feel unique from other classes.

    Now it's just Obliterate and you have to use the same rotation all the time or you'll mess up everything.
    You can't use Howling Blast off Rime really because then you can't use any Obliterates or Necrotic Strike.

    The new rotation and doesn't go well together with what runes we use


    They should make these changes;

    - Threat of Thassarian; no longer increase Frost Strike damage

    - Might of The Frozen Wastes; No longer increases Obliterate damage

    - Rime; No longer makes Howling Blast cost no runes
    - Rime (NEW!); Using Howling Blast has a x% chance to make your next Obliterate cost no runes

    - Obliterate damage increased by 15% for both DW and 2h

    - Frost Strike damage changed back to what it was pre-5.0.4

    - Howling Blast damage (on main target) increased

    Anyone else feeling the same? Please share your thoughts about the changes to Frost DK in pvp.
    Last edited by Wrien; 2012-08-30 at 06:20 PM.

  7. #7
    Frost DK feels great. Necrotic strike is better than obliterate in many situations as it's not effected by resilience and has a way larger absorb as well as the casting debuff. With Blood Tap, you can do two obliterates followed by 4 necrotics as a burst rotation. As duel wield, frost strike hits amazingly hard and is absolutely the better place to put your killing machines. Throwing in death siphons to heal yourself is a DPS loss compared to equal numbers of obliterates, but still competes with howling blast on a single target, making it much less painful to play defensively. Throw icy touch in the mix, and we really have OPTIONS for our runes, not just damage spam of the past.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by hx9 View Post
    Frost DK feels great. Necrotic strike is better than obliterate in many situations as it's not effected by resilience and has a way larger absorb as well as the casting debuff. With Blood Tap, you can do two obliterates followed by 4 necrotics as a burst rotation. As duel wield, frost strike hits amazingly hard and is absolutely the better place to put your killing machines. Throwing in death siphons to heal yourself is a DPS loss compared to equal numbers of obliterates, but still competes with howling blast on a single target, making it much less painful to play defensively. Throw icy touch in the mix, and we really have OPTIONS for our runes, not just damage spam of the past.
    I feel the opposite way. All we relly on now is Obliterate and Outbreak
    Casting Chains of Ice, Howling Blast or Pillar of Frost really screws up our rotation and we have to wait for runes on CD to start over again.

    Frost Dk used to have 5 main abilities in pvp; 4x necrotic strike, 2x Howling Blast, Frost Strike (Use Obliterate on cloth with KM proc) and Chains of Ice.
    Now it's just Outbreak, Obliterate and very little Necrotoc Strike, use anything else and you can't use necrotic Strike or Obliterate.

    What i dislike the most about the changes is the changes to Might of the Frozen Wastes and Threat of Thassarian. They shouldn't make 2h and DW two different playstyles. They should remove the Obliterate and Frost Strike damage bonuses to them and increased Frost Strike and Obliterate damage by 25% passively for Frost DK. I really don't like how weak FS feels as 2h and OB as DW. It shouldn't be that way!

  9. #9
    hx9,

    I totally aggre with ur glyph choices. IBF, AMS and Glyph of Icy Touch are just awsome. I'm using them since patch 5.0.4 come live.

    About talents... well.

    Tier 1: Plague leech requires micromanage. Obviously it's the best dps choice. Ok with that. Plague leech for arena and Unholy Blight for RBG.
    Tier 2: Lichborne all the way. No problem here.
    Tier 3: For RBG's, I think chillblains is a better choice (for frost dk's, howling blast all the way haha). With unholy blight + this u have repeatable snare on all targets near u. On arena death's advance it's the best choice for both Frost DK and Unholy DK.
    Tier 4: Conversion is shit. Death Siphon needs micromanage (and blood tap on tier 5) and Death Pact it's the best option for burst heal, and gives u a little dps (since the ability don't kill your ghoul anymore).
    Tier 5: All about play style. Unholy should go with Runic Corruption. Frost should go with Runic Corruption or Runic Empowerment. And if u know how to micromanage death runes... u can go Blood Tap (synergizes with Death Siphon/Necrotic Strike).

    And finally... the tier 6! Remorseless Winter seem's the best for RBG's. Arena we NEED desecrated ground (so OP haha), for both unholy and frost specs.

    That's my opinion! Sorry for bad english..
    Last edited by drivertz; 2012-08-30 at 07:00 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by hx9 View Post
    Frost DK feels great. Necrotic strike is better than obliterate in many situations as it's not effected by resilience and has a way larger absorb as well as the casting debuff.
    Necrotic Strike (both the damage of the actual strike along with the healing absorb) is affected by both PvP power and Resilience.

    OT: Gave 2H Frost a try today. The damage overall seemed okay-ish and the survivability wasn't nearly as bad as in 4.0 what with the 700k Death Pacts and Death Coil heals. It doesn't flow very well with Obliterates and Necrotic Strikes, though, and "accidentally" using a Frost Strike on a KM seems like one of the biggest mistakes in your life, which again, hurts the general flow.

    Unholy seemed superb especially in duels with Chilblains and the damage was definitely on par with Frost's. Survivability wasn't an issue either.

    Neither spec seemed to be able to kill competent healers and would end up dying after about 3 minutes. (that's more an issue to do with how much damage healers are able to put out than anything else, though)
    Last edited by Vereesa; 2012-08-30 at 07:23 PM.
    Vereesa of Paragon, formerly of Depraved
    WCL

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    Frost is ruined, it feels like playing a paladin now.

    Howling Blast, Frost Strike and Necrotic Strike made it feel unique from other classes.

    Now it's just Obliterate and you have to use the same rotation all the time or you'll mess up everything.
    You can't use Howling Blast off Rime really because then you can't use any Obliterates or Necrotic Strike.

    The new rotation and doesn't go well together with what runes we use


    They should make these changes;

    - Threat of Thassarian; no longer increase Frost Strike damage

    - Might of The Frozen Wastes; No longer increases Obliterate damage

    - Rime; No longer makes Howling Blast cost no runes
    - Rime (NEW!); Using Howling Blast has a x% chance to make your next Obliterate cost no runes

    - Obliterate damage increased by 15% for both DW and 2h

    - Frost Strike damage changed back to what it was pre-5.0.4

    - Howling Blast damage (on main target) increased

    Anyone else feeling the same? Please share your thoughts about the changes to Frost DK in pvp.
    WoW you clearly have no Idea how to play 5.0.4 Frost DK, if you are DW focus on mastery and you obliterate SHIT LESS, spamming HB and frost strike.
    ENGLISH ISNT MY MAIN SPEC
    YOU NOW BREATH CONSCIOUSLY

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I feel the opposite way. All we relly on now is Obliterate and Outbreak
    Casting Chains of Ice, Howling Blast or Pillar of Frost really screws up our rotation and we have to wait for runes on CD to start over again.

    Frost Dk used to have 5 main abilities in pvp; 4x necrotic strike, 2x Howling Blast, Frost Strike (Use Obliterate on cloth with KM proc) and Chains of Ice.
    Now it's just Outbreak, Obliterate and very little Necrotoc Strike, use anything else and you can't use necrotic Strike or Obliterate.

    What i dislike the most about the changes is the changes to Might of the Frozen Wastes and Threat of Thassarian. They shouldn't make 2h and DW two different playstyles. They should remove the Obliterate and Frost Strike damage bonuses to them and increased Frost Strike and Obliterate damage by 25% passively for Frost DK. I really don't like how weak FS feels as 2h and OB as DW. It shouldn't be that way!
    This is basically the way it was before the talent changes anyway. I played DW PvE and 2h PvP and what you're saying right now is almost exactly the way things were as 2h vs DW before. The rune regen model hasn't changed at all so I'm not sure where you're coming up with these rune problems. How are you specced?
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  13. #13
    what's the biggest problem for me right now is the differences between DW and 2h

    They should remove the OB and FS damage bonuses and make them deal 25% more damage passively so that they don't feel useless dependning on which types of weapons you use.

    Blood Tap is great in pvp because it allows you to use Necro Strike a lot more
    Last edited by Wrien; 2012-08-30 at 07:53 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by hx9 View Post

    4) Now that rogue poisons aren't broken to hell, smoke bomb is off prep and rogues can't have both shadow step and prep, we actually don't fare so badly against them anymore. By contrast, classes that can heal at all have very powerful off-healing and are nearly impossible to defeat. In a team setting, it's impossible to defeat healer + hybrid, but the more people you add, the more burst.
    As if rogues needed preparation and smoke bomb against loldk.

    Already decided to reroll something else. Problem is I don't really know what. Played a shadow priest up to level 30 yesterday and today, boring as fuck, lol. Won't play a mage to get facerolled by hunters and ferals, it seems. Rogues are crap in MoP as usual, as they only get good when they scale with the gear near the end of an expansion. Warriors suck at 1v1, as always, as we have learned these last 8 years.

    I guess ret paladin is pretty much the only choice right now. Time to dust off my old 80 paladin. No, I won't play another expansion on a class with mediocre pvp performance, so dk is out of the question. Dks died with the lich king back in wotlk.
    Last edited by Lord Gaga; 2012-08-30 at 08:02 PM.

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