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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Craig610 View Post
    Arielle what is the effective cap on SD uptime due to the stack recharge?
    I was actually wondering the same thing. I guess empirical evidence will not help us determine the optimal uptime of Savage Defense, due to periods where we're not tanking (tank switches etc).

    SD has a 6 sec duration and a 9 sec recharge time. Assuming a Guardian has T15 4set, and either Berserk or Son of Ursoc is popped, it is very safe to assume 100% rage for the next ~10 secs. So:

    6x3 = 18. By popping 3 Savage Defenses back to back, you get 18 full seconds of dodge. 9 sec CD

    At 9 secs left, your 1st charge of SD will be back. Popping it will bring you to 15 secs. Another 9 secCD

    At 6 secs left, your 2nd charge of SD will be back. Popping it will bring you to 12 secs. Another 9 secCD

    At 3 secs left, your 3rd charge of SD will be back. Popping it will bring you to 9 secs. Another 9 sec CD.

    At 0 secs left, your 4th charge of SD will be back. Popping it will bring you to 6 secs. Another 9 sec CD.

    At this point, SD will reach 0 secs when you've still got 3 secs left on the CD. When those 3 secs of 0 SD uptime are done,it will be up again, and if popped on cooldown, this cycle will continue endlessly (ending SD duration at 3 secs left on the CD).

    However, to reach this stage, SD was active 100% for 51 full seconds. This of course is assuming best case scenario, where it is popped precisely whenever it comes off cooldown AND there is available Rage pooled in order to use it. But, to reach 51 full seconds of SD uptime, the charges must be pooled. This is where off-tanking comes in. The 1 minute mark (more or less) is pretty much ideal for tank switches - Durumu, Ji-Kun, Primordius (to an extent) Iron Quon, Jinrok, and more have tank switches that allow you to be off-tanking (not tanking the boss, that is) for more than 30 secs. You only need 27 seconds to recharge all 3 stacks of SD, and that's IF the switch happened as SOON as your last charge went on CD.

    So, bottom line? When talking about bosses with tank switches, SD should have roughly 85%+ uptime (and that's being generous, but I'm assuming Human Error to be relatively mediocre towards high, here) when the boss is being tanked! When the boss is not being tanked, SD uptime does not matter - of course add-tanking is a different issue, but we're talking SD uptime where it matters, when tanking the boss that is.

    Thoughts? My flow of logic wrong in any way? Discuss

  2. #402
    soft cap
    I wish people would stop saying this. It can confuse people that haven't played a tank before.

    However, to reach this stage, SD was active 100% for 51 full seconds.
    Wrong number. It's 42 seconds. You did your thinking of the CD/Charges/Duration right so I don't know how you ended up here.

    where it is popped precisely whenever it comes off cooldown AND there is available Rage pooled in order to use it. But, to reach 51 full seconds of SD uptime, the charges must be pooled. This is where off-tanking comes in. The 1 minute mark (more or less) is pretty much ideal for tank switches
    40 seconds is "ideal". Rage isn't even an issue once you get to ToT. You'll have more than enough Rage for burn charges as they become available.

    and that's being generous, but I'm assuming Human Error to be relatively mediocre towards high, here
    Considering the duration stacks when you use another charge, there's no human error to be had.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    I wish people would stop saying this. It can confuse people that haven't played a tank before.


    Wrong number. It's 42 seconds. You did your thinking of the CD/Charges/Duration right so I don't know how you ended up here.


    40 seconds is "ideal". Rage isn't even an issue once you get to ToT. You'll have more than enough Rage for burn charges as they become available.


    Considering the duration stacks when you use another charge, there's no human error to be had.
    I got 51 seconds cause I added the 5 9-second periods of recharge time (since the buff was active during all this time), and then added the 6 seconds of SD duration on that last line. How did you get 42?

    "Rage isn't an issue when you reach ToT" - Yeah, I know it's not, still doesn't mean you don't use your rage for other things though, like Mauls and Frenzied Regens. Also, human error is there, cause you might not have noticed that it got off cooldown - I never miss it (it's become a habit of muscle memory now, duh) but it's not realistic to assume that EVERYONE who plays Guardian has the same skills/knowledge/experience as you or me

    Edit: If this is you, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Arielle/simple, a) I'm 100% sure you're raiding 10man, and b) you're SO lucky with trash drops >.< Getting our BIS boots/waist is gonna be a PAIN this tier...
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2013-04-22 at 03:32 AM.

  4. #404
    I got 51 seconds cause I added the 5 9-second periods of recharge time (since the buff was active during all this time), and then added the 6 seconds of SD duration on that last line. How did you get 42?
    # of uses of SD before it runs out:

    3 initial - 18 seconds
    +2 - 30 seconds
    +1 - 36 seconds
    +1 - 42 seconds

    Every charge thereafter is 6/9 or 66.6666666% uptime.

    cause you might not have noticed that it got off cooldown
    EVERYONE should have an addon to track this. It should be blatantly obvious and very hard to ignore.

  5. #405
    My dps last night on Ji-Kun was 50k. Does that sound about right? I'm at 499 ilvl these days. I just want to make sure I'm not way off the mark.

  6. #406
    I pulled 150k on a third-string alt's first Ji-kun kill last week - I'm sure 50k of it was from knowing how to scumbag feathers and vengeance cheesing, but to overall 50k sounds fairly low; that's lower than 0 vengeance dummy dps no?

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    I pulled 150k on a third-string alt's first Ji-kun kill last week - I'm sure 50k of it was from knowing how to scumbag feathers and vengeance cheesing, but to overall 50k sounds fairly low; that's lower than 0 vengeance dummy dps no?
    I'm tanking it, so I don't think I'll be getting 150k. How does one vengeance cheese? Store it up?

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Axon14 View Post
    I'm tanking it, so I don't think I'll be getting 150k. How does one vengeance cheese? Store it up?
    The character in question is a ilvl 503 guardian druid on 10man normal, so yes you can get 150k

    Vengeance cheese involves taunting while the other tank is tanking (making sure you don't do it during a danger-area for talon rake cast), and refreshing your vengeance stack at little to no cost to the other tank but giving yourself a rather large dps boost.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-04-22 at 08:55 PM.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    The character in question is a ilvl 503 guardian druid, yes you can get 150k

    Vengeance cheese involves taunting while the other tank is tanking (making sure you don't do it during a danger-area for talon rake cast), and refreshing your vengeance stack at little to no cost to the other tank but giving yourself a rather large dps boost.
    Lol, nice. I will probably get kicked out of the raid for that, but I guess I'll give it a try. Scumbag feathers means what, fly around for AOE dps?

  10. #410
    Not sure why you'd get kicked out of your raid for improving dps - the idea is that the other tank taunts back after you get hit once or twice (since that's all you need to refresh your vengeance.) If the other tank does this as well, you both end up with about 30-50% more tank damage throughout the fight. My tank partner and I always do this, to great effect on heroic Lei Shen & Ra-den.

    If you know how to use your feathers and soak slime pools to maximize their effect, whenever you're not tanking, you go with a nest group to grab a feather (4 spawn in 10man and most guilds use 3 people in their nest team so there's usually a free feather.) You use the feather to grab the primal nutriment debuff that gives at least +100% damage for 30 seconds.

  11. #411
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Question about T14 and T15. The Inc bear BiS list lists full T15 (with cat tier head) as BiS for head, shoulder, chest, legs and gloves. Understandable, but I at present have T14 4-set and no way of playing around with gear to get new pieces in w/o dropping my T14 4-set bonus (passed on 522 none-tier legs for our rogue).

    Is it worth keeping the full T14 with 4 pieces (until I get 2 T15 522 pieces) or I just should upgrade to 522 piece (whether raid drop or VP) if I get something (and stop being a nice gal and passing on loot). Is LFR T15 bonus/item worth using?

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  12. #412
    Is it worth keeping the full T14 with 4 pieces (until I get 2 T15 522 pieces) or I just should upgrade to 522 piece (whether raid drop or VP) if I get something (and stop being a nice gal and passing on loot). Is LFR T15 bonus/item worth using?
    I wouldn't drop the 4t14 until you have 2t15.

  13. #413
    I just got the normal two piece and it is fantastic. A 60 rage heal with a few stacks (which aren't hard to come by and don't fall off too fast like I had expected) is ridiculous. I'm talking like 400k and up with a 60 rage Frenzied Regeneration. This is excellent for removing Arterial Cut on Durumu, Ji'Kun's Talon Rake, etc.. But it's more than just massive heals - the two piece allows you to use FR at lower rage, while getting similar effects as a 60 rage heal without the two piece bonus. This will limit the amount of overhealing done and provide you with more rage to spend on Savage Defense and Tooth and Claw.

    The four piece also looks amazing, and am working at obtaining it ASAP. Using enrage basically on cooldown shouldn't be too difficult even though it's on the GCD, and the extra rage it will provide is always beneficial.

    I'm not too sure about LFR pieces, though. I don't think I'd break a 4pc T14 bonus until I had at least two. At any rate, you shouldn't be losing out on stats since the ilvl are similar. I definitely wouldn't recommend passing on them in normal. As a tank, it's important that you gear up at least as fast as the rest of your raid; it makes things easier for everyone.

    A little off topic: why is the Feral helmet listed as BiS? Why not keep the Guardian helmet and replace something like legs with Worldbinder Leggings? If maximizing critical strike is your goal, it seems like this would be a better way to achieve it; especially since these non-set pieces can be Thunderforged.

  14. #414
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    But the point for me Arkhu, that why should I need on loot (which I probably won't use), when we have a rogue who can use it (for me it is usually if rogue doesn't want, I will take it). If it is not worth to drop my T14 bonus until I have 2 pieces of T15, thus it is not worth to roll on gear which I will stuff in my bank ^^.

    And ofc I would like to have 517ilvl equip, like out MT does, but meh 511 equip (515 possibility if I swap my trinkets around) is okei for me.

    And honestly I am myself not sure on using the LFR T15 pieces, as only T14 not upgraded to 504 is the helmet. So I guess in long run, no point in "downgrading" my items.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-04-24 at 03:14 PM.
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  15. #415
    You do what you feel is best for your raid group, but personally, I would at least roll against the rogue for the chance at a set piece (also, I find bosses that drop tier are good places to spend coins). In my opinion, if you wait until every Rogue, Death Knight, Mage, and Druid is full T15 before you start taking pieces, you are gimping yourself and the raid in general. Your ilvl is just fine, but the set bonuses will make you easier to heal, increase damage, allow you to use a legendary meta gem, etc. Even if it has to sit in your bag for a bit, you'll get a second piece soon enough. Geared tanks just seem to make the raid go smoother in my experience, as it reduces those unlucky "combos" on the tank and leave some breathing room for healers to heal other raid members that may be messing up.

    As for the LFR stuff, if you have upgraded T14, I don't think I'd worry with it (unless it was a helmet for a legendary meta, which, to my knowledge, cannot be used in T14 helmets even if they've been upgraded).

  16. #416
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    I am rolling for the tokens (sorry that I didn't make it clear), I just don't do it for other things, but in 10-man I am going against 1-2 druids, 1-2 mage, 1 rogue and 1 DK for tier pieces, so the chances with my bad luck... Is close to zero.
    I did check the LFR token items and only the head piece was an upgrade from tier. But cannot change it until Empress drops me my chest for T14... It pains me that the set bonus of previous tier is good .
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  17. #417
    That's a lot of your raid on the Vanquisher token; hopefully you'll have some luck with your coin rolls... I would break a 4 piece T14 for 2 piece T15 or the helmet by itself in order to socket a legendary meta gem. Personally, I think this tier's 2 piece plus the extra ilvl beats T14 hands-down.

  18. #418
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    so i am going back from Kitty dps to bear tank it seems

    i was wondering what stats should i use as i think the guide is outdated right?
    i assume i have to go for hit / exp caps and then crit & haste to boost my RPS as high as possiable ?
    and gem stamina ?
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  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    so i am going back from Kitty dps to bear tank it seems

    i was wondering what stats should i use as i think the guide is outdated right?
    i assume i have to go for hit / exp caps and then crit & haste to boost my RPS as high as possiable ?
    and gem stamina ?
    The stats haven't really changed. You still don't gem stam for normals. http://theincbear.com/ updated guide.

  20. #420
    Tested out today the dps meta and it's amazing! Even though I'm clearing heroic content I will still be using it. It does about 12-15% of my damage. Seems to be worth more than having the tanking meta. But that's just my opinion.

    Log from today's raid: logs

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