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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Motoma View Post
    Not "caring" about your DPS as a Tank is a very outdated and poor way to think. Regardless of your raid size.
    Surviving is the tank's number one priority. I think the boost in tank damage we've seen this tier is making some people forget that fact.

    I think Blizzard should probably consider just making the proc based off of your current spec. It just doesn't seem like they're going to be able to make a tanking proc/enchant/stat/trinket/etc. this expansion that is desirable for the majority of tanks in most situations.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhu View Post
    Surviving is the tank's number one priority. I think the boost in tank damage we've seen this tier is making some people forget that fact.

    I think Blizzard should probably consider just making the proc based off of your current spec. It just doesn't seem like they're going to be able to make a tanking proc/enchant/stat/trinket/etc. this expansion that is desirable for the majority of tanks in most situations.
    One thing is about procs beeing really good. The other thing is if the procs are really needed, just look at the tank meta its really strong, problem is they changed swingtimers cause of SotR from palas so meleedmg is not a real danger except the ones that follow by big hits. I mean just looking at twins heroic, p1 one can be one tanked. You get adds and the beast that debuffs you so you cant be healed often. No tankclass has any problems keeping themselves alive. And for dangerous big hits you use cooldowns.
    You can have two heads with different lmgs so even if there is 1 boss where you need it you can use the tank one, but why should you miss around 10-15% extra dmg for one boss only, and I quess the same problem will be with the new cloaks. I love the new proc, how good it will be exactly depends on bosses. The procc will be used to get more vengeance in almost all cases I guess, the dps cloak scales with vengeance and will win on all fights where you have more than 1 target in terms of dps.

    The best tank proc is useless if you dont/cant use it. Like the tank lmg, the proc is really OP and the uptime is very good aswell, but its not needed. Looking at this content even if they changed the dps lmg so tanks cant use it, people would still be running the old 3% critdmg gem, not becuase the tanklmg is bad but because the proc is wasted alot especially on druids.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-07-13 at 02:05 PM.

  3. #703
    I don't think you can really compare the legendary cloak proc to the tanking meta proc because the damage reduction was completely random. They took a step in the right direction with the cloak proc. It's not perfect, and we'll have to see what kind of damage increase the dps version provides, but if you have ever died while tanking, this proc would've benefited you. I think it's going to be especially useful early in SoO, before we out-gear the content.

  4. #704
    I hope Blizz decides to keep valor upgrades in 5.4 just so that my cloak remains at 608. I will be annoyed that I'm losing 8 ilvls off an epic just to gain a orange proc regardless of how good it is. I'm sure the numbers will prolly make up for it by the time things go live but atm I feel a lil cheated that they would give us an epic cloak, let us upgrade it, but then lower it back to 600, slap a proc on it and call it a legendary.

    I know its a minor grievance but I think the legendary reward would have felt much sweeter had the epic cloaks only been 570ish. Then when you finally get the Legendary it truly feels monumental. At best right now, the cloaks keep all the same stats and gain a proc (meh)....worst case we lose 8 ilvls but still gain said proc.


    On a side note, has anyone on the PTR determined how close tanks are approaching the vengeance caps? Granted we still have limited information on all of the procs but I doubt it resets debuff stacks and if tanks are using it to soak damage they would normally avoid, it might not be off CD again when you actually need it. Also, if you take the cloak to soak dmg and increase your tank dps, why not just use the dps cloak full time and not mess with taking unnecessary damage?

  5. #705
    but if you have ever died while tanking, this proc would've benefited you.
    I find it hard to say this when the overwhelming majority of my tank deaths were due to attrition (was going to die anyway - proc wouldn't have saved me) or stupidity (proc would have saved me - but shouldn't have needed it).

    It's a different story for say the top 100 - top 200 or so. Everyone outside of that won't make much use of it until you get to the bottom end of the spectrum where mistakes are so common that having something like this is a good thing.

    There's a huge portion of people in the middle that will just ignore it.

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    I find it hard to say this when the overwhelming majority of my tank deaths were due to attrition (was going to die anyway - proc wouldn't have saved me) or stupidity (proc would have saved me - but shouldn't have needed it).
    I was going to mention that this proc does sort of feel like a benefit for being bad - neglecting to use CDs appropriately, healers slacking, standing in the fire, etc. That said, the usefulness of the proc is that it can also be used as a CD in it's own right.

    It's a different story for say the top 100 - top 200 or so. Everyone outside of that won't make much use of it until you get to the bottom end of the spectrum where mistakes are so common that having something like this is a good thing.

    There's a huge portion of people in the middle that will just ignore it.
    I think sweeping statements like this are probably a bit premature until we know proc rates of the dps cloak, encounter mechanics, the tightness of enrage timers, and difficulty tuning. I'm sure you remember that Paladin tanks had an ability that worked almost exactly the same way (activated on a hit that would've killed you, instead taking you to 30% - Ulduar was a long time ago, so forgive me if percentages are incorrect). This benefited our raid quite a bit, especially on progression fights, as it provided a larger margin of error and some leeway on fights that the group was undergeared for. I expect this tanking proc to do the same.

    The more I think about it, the more I like this proc, actually. At one end of the spectrum, less skilled players will use the proc to make up for mistakes. On the other end, the best players will probably find ways to use this to cheese mechanics/gain ridiculous vengeance. Everyone in the middle can use it as a significant buffer/extra CD to take a bit of pressure off those initial progression encounters.

  7. #707
    I'm sure you remember that Paladin tanks had an ability that worked almost exactly the same way (activated on a hit that would've killed you, instead taking you to 30% - Ulduar was a long time ago, so forgive me if percentages are incorrect)
    Paladins still have that. The problem is if they die they are heald up to 15% of their max hp. So if maybe a jikun dot tick accures right after the talons rake. the pala will die anyway. Plus there is no need to take that many stacks. It will be nice to know how much hp you will have left after the cloak procced.

    but if you have ever died while tanking,this proc would've benefited you
    I find it hard to say this when the overwhelming majority of my tank deaths were due to attrition (was going to die anyway - proc wouldn't have saved me) or stupidity (proc would have saved me - but shouldn't have needed it).
    The times I died where actually times I messed up during progression or had no way of preventing my death my cotank died on jikun cause he messed up and I died after like 5 stacks of talons rake with the boss at 25% hp, so even I had survived that the next one would have killed me. I can think of one time my death actually messed up our first kill but after that we killed tortos 2-3 attempts later.


    The more I think about it, the more I like this proc, actually.
    Everyone likes the proc. The question is if it needed, I hardly doubt blizzard will make the bosses so as a tank you have to ahve the tanking one cause every tank without will not be able to see SoO on heroic.

    I don't think you can really compare the legendary cloak proc to the tanking meta proc because the damage reduction was completely random
    Infact you can. The LMG proc is very good too, previous expansion where meleedmg actually matters it was quite high. If it would still be every tank would choose the tank one over the dps one (you can argue if druids would have needed another melee reduction but ok). People dont take tank stuff cause they dont need it.
    Why go for dodge/parry when you can use crit and just heal the extra dmg taken cause you get like double the rps.

    The reason people gemed stamina back in the day was so they can survive a certain amount of time without recieving heals. Now most tankclasses can raise their effective health to an ridiculous amount that stamina can never reach just by using stuff like crit to get more FR or T&C.

    Even if the dps one only provides like 2-3% extra dmg for tanks on single target fights. People will still take it over the Tankproc cause if not needed it will give them nothing, and noone cares about stats on a legendary, yes the stats are huge on the cloak, but noone cares if you ahve expertise or haste on it when the proc is very strong.

    Again I love the proc, I really do, I just doubt that it will be needed. But after ToT and 5.0 I doubt that tankdmg will be high again, alot of people said that about ToT heroic too and only 1-3 do decent tankdmg.

  8. #708
    Stat priority question from a casual Bear:

    Disclaimer: I only ever intend to LFR tank, as life no longer permits honest to God raiding. With that said, my stat priority is

    Hit (7.5)>Expertise (?)>Crit>Haste> rest doesn't matter for my needs.

    My question as an LFR tank is, can i quit chasing Expertise after softcap (7.5%)? or do i push it to 15% before reforging Crit / Haste?

    Thanks in advance.

  9. #709
    It doenst matter if LFR or heroic, bosses are lvl 93 so going full expertise will give you more so yes you need 15%

  10. #710
    My question as an LFR tank is, can i quit chasing Expertise after softcap (7.5%)? or do i push it to 15% before reforging Crit / Haste?

    Thanks in advance.
    You can but you don't really have a good reason to.

  11. #711
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i gues i dont fit into the category of the majority of the ppl

    as a tank i stive to survive as much as possiable, fuckups and mistakes included.
    i took the tank meta gem. not becase i need it but becase it helps even its just a little bit
    i took the tanking cloak becase it will eventualy give me a extra proc, i probely wont need it bit in case of an issue it will help

    and maybe i could have done 10% more dps if i took the dps versions of both. i do think about dps but i dont see it as my priority
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  12. #712
    Bear form stamina buff incoming? Seeing 800K hp bears running around i did not think this was particularly a problem. I'll take any buff we get however.

  13. #713
    800k hp isnt specific to bears tbh, our tanks in my guild both have 900k~ hp and we have a warrior/dk combo.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by fled View Post
    Bear form stamina buff incoming? Seeing 800K hp bears running around i did not think this was particularly a problem. I'll take any buff we get however.
    It's a problem in 25h, so a good thing it's getting addressed without forcing people to stack Stamina when other tanks don't need to.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Infact you can. The LMG proc is very good too, previous expansion where meleedmg actually matters it was quite high. If it would still be every tank would choose the tank one over the dps one (you can argue if druids would have needed another melee reduction but ok). People dont take tank stuff cause they dont need it.

    The tank meta was a poor choice 1) because the uptime was so random and 2) the dps meta was so good. The cloak proc is better because of it's reliability and total damage/death avoidance. This proc is so much better, it's not even funny.

    I think some if you are looking at what it does for your character specifically, without considering what it can do for your raid. If your healer knows you have this safety net, they can concentrate more on keeping the rest of the raid alive. That Pain Suppression that would've been reserved for you can now be used more liberally on dps, etc.

    Unrelated: awesome stamina bonus is awesome.
    Last edited by Arkhu; 2013-07-15 at 05:56 PM.

  16. #716
    If bears continue to have their shaky AM system then they need a stamina buff like this. It's unfair that they're unable to do anything but cross their fingers on boss specials - on those that can even be avoided. Not to mention the fact that their mastery is totally irrelevant on abilities like Snapping Bite. So as long as this is the case, then more health's needed to survive bad streaks. I main a paladin (25H), and although I've yet to raid on my bear, what I'm seeing of him doesn't compare to my paladin at all.

    I'd like to see a big overhaul for 6.0 though to be honest. Maybe some huge buffs to get more people to play the class and to let me swap mains.

  17. #717
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i did not expect that stamina buff,
    as far as i know stamnia is normalised on itemlevel so an equal geared Dk or warrior or pally should have the same health right?
    ofcourse tank specs have talents / effects that increase hp but no class gets a 40% buff stamina right?
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    If bears continue to have their shaky AM system then they need a stamina buff like this. It's unfair that they're unable to do anything but cross their fingers on boss specials - on those that can even be avoided. Not to mention the fact that their mastery is totally irrelevant on abilities like Snapping Bite. So as long as this is the case, then more health's needed to survive bad streaks. I main a paladin (25H), and although I've yet to raid on my bear, what I'm seeing of him doesn't compare to my paladin at all.

    I'd like to see a big overhaul for 6.0 though to be honest. Maybe some huge buffs to get more people to play the class and to let me swap mains.
    It's akin to the Blood DK changes a while back to boost their stamina modifier... sort of. The big difference, as you mentioned, is the active mitigations. All the other non-Guardian tanks have active mitigation that scales to incoming damage to prevent damage, while Guardians have to rely on reacting to the full hits and heal. I'm honestly surprised Blizz has let it last as long as it has, since our tanking model would infer Guardians having the largest stamina modifier of all tanks by design. Has all content been doable as a Guardian? Absolutely. Is it as easy as using another tank class? Probably not.

    You did mention, trystero, about wanting to see a big overhaul in 6.0. Well, Blizz has been hinting for a looooooong time about changing certain aspects of tanking, one of them being active mitigation that was implemented this expansion. Another aspect is dodge and parry, which they seem to be mentioned quite a bit more. What Blizz plans to do, I cannot say, but a change in how avoidance works will undoubtedly change how Guardians work/balance (even if it's just a Parry adjustment). My personal opinion is that Parry could head to the chopping block, since it's basically equivalent to Dodge, all classes can dodge, and anything requiring Parry could be adjusted to Dodge instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    i did not expect that stamina buff,
    as far as i know stamnia is normalised on itemlevel so an equal geared Dk or warrior or pally should have the same health right?
    ofcourse tank specs have talents / effects that increase hp but no class gets a 40% buff stamina right?
    All the tank specs have stamina-increasing passives of varying degrees, and currently DKs have the highest with Blood Presence (25%), Veteran of the Third War (9%), Plate Specialization (5%) and potentially their runeforging increasing their stamina modifier by 2% (unless something slipped passed me, long vacation ftw). As Guardians currently, we have Bear Form (20%), Leather Specialization (5%), and HotW if we choose (6%). If you compare the two, it's roughly a 46% stam modifier for DKs and 34% stam modifier for Guardians if we talent for it. If the datamined notes are correct, we'll be seeing almost a 56% stamina modifier on the PTR choosing HotW. I know the change would put me just shy of 1 million HP in bear form with mostly crit gems/enchants... I won't complain, I swear!
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  19. #719
    The tank meta was a poor choice 1) because the uptime was so random and 2) the dps meta was so good
    The problem wasn only the random uptime sure it wasnt that good and reliable. The problem is the lmg for druids is so not good cause our 2 of our 3 rage abitities are directed to meleehits. And those hits dont even hit that hard on use when they hit, nor does any other tank have certain problems with melee attacks. So unreliable for big hits and worhtless for melees.

    Not to mention the fact that their mastery is totally irrelevant on abilities like Snapping Bite
    You do know that Snapping bite can be dodged, if it wouldnt go through armor(it ignores all armor from all classes btw) druids would be totally broken on that fight. And snapping bite is the only ability from any boss that goes through armor this tier. Druids are fine even in 25m well atleast not that weak as you see them.

    800k hp isnt specific to bears tbh, our tanks in my guild both have 900k~ hp and we have a warrior/dk combo
    Both tank classes usally go for stamina on gear/enchants and trinkets at least. And bears usually dont.

    It's a problem in 25h, so a good thing it's getting addressed without forcing people to stack Stamina when other tanks don't need to.
    I think a buff to passiv physical mitigation would have been better for 25m, but still Stamina is nice too.

    Cant wait for 5.4 crit softcap, armorcap, stamina buffs. Not to mention the nerfs they plan for the SS from palas, the aoedmg nerfs to monk,dmg buffs to dks and warriors.. Id say next tier all tanks going to be really close. Still not that happy with the 4piece but ok.

    You did mention, trystero, about wanting to see a big overhaul in 6.0. Well, Blizz has been hinting for a looooooong time about changing certain aspects of tanking, one of them being active mitigation that was implemented this expansion. Another aspect is dodge and parry, which they seem to be mentioned quite a bit more
    The problem is alot of people like the AM right now, even the druid ones. But the problem is they cant give all tanks the same cause that would be totally boring. I think its totaly fine having pala be good on horridon/tortos/durumu, monks beeing gods on DA zerg/leishen/raden, druids very strong on jikun/primordius. DK beeing able to soak everything with their fully stacks shield. Infact I think warriors are the tanks that are best designed, their first AM only works on melees their second is an absorb that cant be stacked so not going into ridicules lvls. They just messed up with tanks beeing able to dish out dmg while especially warrior are so far behing and HoP cheesing this tier and tanks incoming dmg beeing way to low. Just looking at how much stacks you need on iron qon hc to be hard to heal, like what 5-7 stacks before tanks are really in need of heals and are not healed by random stuff or selfheal? I dont know what it is but if I compare heroic ToT/5.0 with raids in WotLK and Cata, I feels like either I have way to much hp or they bosses dont hit that hard. Can be mistaken cause I main guardian, but previous expansions it was like you take 3 melee hits you are dead, if you take out horridon heroic last phase and DA zerg. I mean I quess as a guardian I could easily tank horridon hc one whole gate without any healers cause he does like 0 dmg except high stacked TPs.
    Even tortos which is a real pain for druids I maintanked on 10m, and with only having one spell where you can get the shield from range getting new shields is a pain in the a... . Still the only really danger and RNG that can kill you if you manage the shield(which you ahve do to on every tank except maybe palas) is the Snapping bite before stomp. And it takes like 2 trys and a weakauras setting to have 0 problems with that.

    The other thing you mention is dodge and parry. I do believe that they are RNG and not favored, but normally you gain about 20-30% extra mitigation from those stats, except druid and monks of course. Thats alot, plus some abilities can be avoided by dodging or parrying the attack. I think its fine to have some RNG parts on a tank not that hard that with bad luck you get killed.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-07-15 at 08:35 PM.

  20. #720
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    That crit softcap was 76% right?
    Currently i am exp and hit hardcapped and still tot 60% crit in bear unbuffed
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

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