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  1. #721
    That crit softcap was 76% right?
    After suppression, yes. So 79% on your character sheet.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    It's akin to the Blood DK changes a while back to boost their stamina modifier... sort of. The big difference, as you mentioned, is the active mitigations. All the other non-Guardian tanks have active mitigation that scales to incoming damage to prevent damage, while Guardians have to rely on reacting to the full hits and heal. I'm honestly surprised Blizz has let it last as long as it has, since our tanking model would infer Guardians having the largest stamina modifier of all tanks by design. Has all content been doable as a Guardian? Absolutely. Is it as easy as using another tank class? Probably not.
    Our AM does work, and it's not that hard to use. The only thing it can't save us from is one-shot mechanics, and any tank that can survive those without a well-drilled cooldown rotation is frankly broken. (No, I'm not saying nerf Paladins.. I'm saying don't design around having them break everything.)

  3. #723
    The only thing it can't save us from is one-shot mechanics, and any tank that can survive those without a well-drilled cooldown rotation is frankly broken.
    The problem with palas is that SotR is too strong when you consider the rest, they have too much for free. they have a free absorb/free selfheal. And everything scales with haste and vengeance. But there is the problem what do you want to change, maybe let SS cost 2-3 HP aswell. Currently even small changes have huge impact on tanks, just look at what 20-30k extra vengeance can do in terms of dmg done and taken/healed. SS is the problem its way too strong

    Same goes for druids lets say you change T&C to absorbing all melee dmg not only the next normal hit. Druids will be the best tanks by far. even minor changes will completely destroy tankclasses atm. Just look at the rather complicated dmg buff for dks and warriors. The last SotR nerf may seem minor but infact it was huge considering the tankchanges after release. With the current AM playstyle and stats tanks go for small changes can completely change the playstyle something blizzard doenst want mid-expansion.

    Dont forget the ones screaming for nerfs/buffs, when a tank has a small advantage over other tanks. I am kinda sad that T&C is not shown on logs but I know how much it absorbs on fights and even if its only next melee swing, if it would show it would have been nerfed already I can assure you that. Almost noone except guardians actually know what it does and how much it absorbs.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-07-16 at 02:22 PM.

  4. #724
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Dont forget the ones screaming for nerfs/buffs, when a tank has a small advantage over other tanks. I am kinda sad that T&C is not shown on logs but I know how much it absorbs on fights and even if its only next melee swing, if it would show it would have been nerfed already I can assure you that. Almost noone except guardians actually know what it does and how much it absorbs.
    this is so tru, it seems to stack also if you you dodge and get multiple T&C's off at the boss

    iv seen the debuff at 200+ absorbs before
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  5. #725
    High Overlord TheBGreene's Avatar
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    I was having a discussion with Arielle on twitter yesterday and I will post to everyone to get their opinions on the matter.

    If you could change out Mastry, 1) would you change it? 2) if so, what would you like to see it be....

    Thoughts?

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarazet View Post
    Our AM does work, and it's not that hard to use. The only thing it can't save us from is one-shot mechanics, and any tank that can survive those without a well-drilled cooldown rotation is frankly broken. (No, I'm not saying nerf Paladins.. I'm saying don't design around having them break everything.)
    I never claimed that Guardian active mitigation doesn't work, but rather how it works that could be bringing a stamina buff to Guardians. Again, going back to Blood DKs, the reason they received a similar buff was because (paraphrasing here) Blizz noticed the spike/burst damage DKs could take with their active mitigation style and toolkit. Guardians are in a similar yet different situation: SD still is random, and while it averages out nicely, it can lead to uncontrolled/unavoidable/unmitigated burst that we can do nothing about except heal up afterwards (even T&C is random and not guaranteed to be proc'd)... but we need enough health to survive the hit in order to heal up afterwards, no?

    I believe this change is geared more towards the general Guardian population rather than the more skilled bears out there, or the ones with a good raid to back them up (as well as being more for 25man than 10man). While the change has to do with Guardian balance with other tanks on some level, I don't think the driving factor was bringing us up to the "best" tank levels but rather bringing us up to a more acceptable level.
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  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBGreene View Post
    I was having a discussion with Arielle on twitter yesterday and I will post to everyone to get their opinions on the matter.

    If you could change out Mastry, 1) would you change it? 2) if so, what would you like to see it be....

    Thoughts?
    I think mastery should be somehow tied to active mitigation, so in our case longer or/and bigger dodge amount, higher amount healed by fr and/or add a hot to it, bigger and/or faster tc. Im basing this on my very basic and primitive testing where I tried going mastery way and I didn't felt any bigger change on damage intake, except rage gen was abit trickier, so I swaped to rage build and never looked back.
    So yeah, a very newbish idea that would of course require some number tweaking.

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBGreene View Post
    If you could change out Mastry, 1) would you change it? 2) if so, what would you like to see it be....
    Thoughts?
    I would not change it but the problem is it has a cap and beeing our only real defensiv stat thats not so good. But the new effect should be better than the current one. The mitigation you gain from the aditional armor is 10-15% to other tanks, so on a 400k hit thats about 40-60k less than other tanks take. Just looking at armor and not taking passive into account.

    Changing it would only make sense if they make T&C available for all physical attacks and you buff SD and T&C with mastery. Which would make the AMs from druids harder to manage that they are now.

  9. #729
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i personaly love armor, but sadly its currently not the best stat to go for :/
    but i like it, i love to get armor capped like i was in BC
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  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    i personaly love armor, but sadly its currently not the best stat to go for :/
    but i like it, i love to get armor capped like i was in BC
    Yeah but mastery is our only defensiv stat and once its capped its worthless.

  11. #731
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    we still got dodge to go for after we capped it
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  12. #732
    High Overlord TheBGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    we still got dodge to go for after we capped it
    /cheer?

    I am seeing a general consensus from the responses in a want for mastery to be linked to AM. I think it would be cool if Mastery scaled the absorbs from T&C and increased the dodge from SD. I figure it would not really be that hard to rework it, but I am sure they never will. We can still dream and talk about it though!

    I think it would be kind of cool for some kind of absorb shield we get after using some ability or even something like DK's have, but then again, we aren't DK's so I guess that would be sort of moot.

  13. #733
    we still got dodge to go for after we capped it
    Yeah like anyone is going to go for dodge^^.

    I think it would be cool if Mastery scaled the absorbs from T&C and increased the dodge from SD
    Problem is, what does increase to dodge actually give us, unless we are able to reach 103% dodge from it, increases that would not be that good.
    T&C needs to be for all physical or the mastery buff wouldnt matter, I dont think we need extra melee avoidance/mitigation. We have enough of that already.

    Dont know the exact number but when I reforge to mastery Im at 72.7% mitigation through armor. Now adding the higher armor on gear with new mastery we get from the new gear we will hit armor cap quite easily. And I quess crit softcap will be reachable with normal SoO gear. So we only have dodge left as secondary or maybe even stamina. Maybe they should change from armor to physical mitigation so we cant cap it would be axactly the same.

    To absorbs: Currently monks and palas are so strong cause they mitigate dmg, absorbs are nice but they scale with vengeance, so lets say after you take a bit hit and gain alot of vengeance and have high absorbs. problem is you would have needed that higher one before the hit. Sure its minor but still. Thats the good thing about FR you mostly use it when you have high vengeance due after big hits.

    But I quess except the mastery going from armor to physical the change will never happen this exp. Everything else will just be too strong or too much of a change, but I dont think our mastery is the problem at all.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-07-18 at 08:03 AM.

  14. #734
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i was thiking that maybe in HC SoO gear we can cap hit, exp, crit and armor
    so then all there is left is:
    Dodge for more passive avoidence
    Stamina for more effective health
    Haste for more RPS to use more ToC / FR
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  15. #735
    Is the dodge boost from Savage Defense affected by diminishing returns?

  16. #736
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    no its a flat 45%, its not dodge rating,
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  17. #737
    i was thiking that maybe in HC SoO gear we can cap hit, exp, crit and armor
    No it will not take that long looking at current high ilvl druids and the new ilvl dropped in SoO the armor cap will be reached quite easily. And with the upgrades you can even get up to 75-77% passive crit on gear this tier (dont know maybe with the crit plus Str proc from primoridous on hc tf maybe you can even reach it). So both will be achieveable with SoO normal gear.

  18. #738
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    then i wonder if this wil give any issues, as it would mena that while other tanks scale on thier HC gear, bears will stop a big portion of thier scaling when they completed normal mode
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  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    No it will not take that long looking at current high ilvl druids and the new ilvl dropped in SoO the armor cap will be reached quite easily. And with the upgrades you can even get up to 75-77% passive crit on gear this tier (dont know maybe with the crit plus Str proc from primoridous on hc tf maybe you can even reach it). So both will be achieveable with SoO normal gear.
    That trinket isn't usable by druids. And not even the best geared druids have more than ~67% crit (at least in US/EU) which is still a pretty long ways to go to cap and non-upgraded N SoO gear is only 4 item levels higher than double upgraded TF gear.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-07-18 at 11:43 AM.

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  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    That trinket isn't usable by druids. And not even the best geared druids have more than ~67% crit (at least in US/EU) which is still a pretty long ways to go to cap and non-upgraded N SoO gear is only 4 item levels higher than double upgraded TF gear.

    that´s not true m8t alot of druids are at 75 to 77% crit buff in raid atm

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