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  1. #1121

  2. #1122
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Does anyone have or knows how to write a Weak Aura or TellMeWhen aura which yells at you when your SD is not on?
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
    Proud RL of Mythic 8/14 HC Open Raid PUG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  3. #1123
    One thing i'd like to know also is how to track how much time is remaining on your incarnation cooldown... I know track my buffs, but not the remaining CDs for my abilities.

  4. #1124
    Dreadlord Khatix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    One thing i'd like to know also is how to track how much time is remaining on your incarnation cooldown... I know track my buffs, but not the remaining CDs for my abilities.
    Cooldowns

    http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/cooldowns

  5. #1125
    I have such an addon already, I'd just like to make an icon that shows me how much time is remaining on my cooldown in the middle of my screen.

  6. #1126
    Blademaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Does anyone have or knows how to write a Weak Aura or TellMeWhen aura which yells at you when your SD is not on?
    Should be pretty easy with WeakAuras.

    1. Type /wa and choose if you'd like to have a text or an icon, or something else.

    2. Go into "Trigger" and check the following:
    Aura: Savage Defense | Unit: Player | Aura Type: Buff

    3. Check "Own only" so the text is green
    4. Check "Inverse"
    5. Go into "Load" and check "In Combat"

    I went for Text:
    The text will show up only in combat when you don't have SD active.

  7. #1127
    is it true, that guardian tanks actually pulling the big dps numbers right now?

  8. #1128
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siccora View Post
    is it true, that guardian tanks actually pulling the big dps numbers right now?
    well then i am doing it wrong , i got HC WF weapon but still dont do a lot of dps, i think Dk's are higher up the list
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  9. #1129
    Bears are the second best dps tank according to raibots

  10. #1130
    As always high tank dps is about abuse vengeance AP. Anihilate on garrosh, more stacks on thok and other things. And for comparsion of tanks you must have boss where both tank have same vengenace 90+% of time.
    Btw. paladin is some way bugged on vengeance? Or why our prot paladin have 450k vengeance after 10 sec with garrosh 25 hc, if i have only 300k+-. Try using SD for average hits and smooth growing vengeance.And i try withou using SD for big spikes but still have less vengeance. This happens only on paladin, other tanks are fine.

  11. #1131
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynek View Post
    Should be pretty easy with WeakAuras.

    1. Type /wa and choose if you'd like to have a text or an icon, or something else.

    2. Go into "Trigger" and check the following:
    Aura: Savage Defense | Unit: Player | Aura Type: Buff

    3. Check "Own only" so the text is green
    4. Check "Inverse"
    5. Go into "Load" and check "In Combat"

    I went for Text:
    The text will show up only in combat when you don't have SD active.
    Thanks , I am tracking most CDs, but a reminder is the thing which I am missing
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
    Proud RL of Mythic 8/14 HC Open Raid PUG

    Moderator of R & D | Open Raid
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  12. #1132
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurman View Post
    As always high tank dps is about abuse vengeance AP. Anihilate on garrosh, more stacks on thok and other things. And for comparsion of tanks you must have boss where both tank have same vengenace 90+% of time.
    Btw. paladin is some way bugged on vengeance? Or why our prot paladin have 450k vengeance after 10 sec with garrosh 25 hc, if i have only 300k+-. Try using SD for average hits and smooth growing vengeance.And i try withou using SD for big spikes but still have less vengeance. This happens only on paladin, other tanks are fine.
    In my situations, using SD tends to lead towards lower average Vengeance. *edited for correctness* - While avoiding should generate an average Vengeance based upon the unmitigated attack, I still get higher Vengeance on average the less I avoid.

    More of an aside, since we're talking about the nature of Vengeance and how it impacts us, using damage reduction abilities also reduces the Vengeance levels you can achieve. Again, in the "heart rooms" on Garrosh, I try to avoid using large damage reduction cooldowns while soaking the smashes because it can cause my Vengeance to go down. When the phase is about to end and I've been soaking the entire time, if I use Rook's Unlucky Talisman for a smash, my Vengeance actually goes down.

    Alright, the TL;DR version is that since Guardians are avoidance tanks, avoiding too much could actually net us a lower average Vengeance level than a tank that takes everything to the face. If one is trying to maximize his/her Vengeance, the trick is to avoid as little damage as possible when your Vengeance will go up as a result using the least amount of damage reduction you can get away with... and avoid getting hit when your Vengeance is really high and will go down upon getting hit. This is purely for min/max purposes, as we can function perfectly fine w/o going to such extremes... and it can be a little dangerous, too.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2013-12-17 at 02:39 AM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  13. #1133
    Pretty sure cooldowns have no impact on your vengeance. Vengeance is calculated before any mitigation comes into play.

  14. #1134
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    In my situations, using SD tends to lead towards lower average Vengeance. The problem is that while avoiding melee attacks is good for survival, it just extends the current Vengeance rather than changing it... and that can be good or bad.
    You are mistaken right there, dodges/parries use the bosses average melee swing to calculate damage, you do in fact 100% gain vengeance while avoiding attacks. You are only going to lose out on vengeance in situations where bosses melee damage can be spikey and give more vengeance than an average swing, which is a minimal difference.

  15. #1135
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    You are mistaken right there, dodges/parries use the bosses average melee swing to calculate damage, you do in fact 100% gain vengeance while avoiding attacks. You are only going to lose out on vengeance in situations where bosses melee damage can be spikey and give more vengeance than an average swing, which is a minimal difference.
    My bad on that, forgot about that change. Regardless, my observations have shown my Vengeance tends to drop if I avoid attacks with established Vengeance over periods of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Pretty sure cooldowns have no impact on your vengeance. Vengeance is calculated before any mitigation comes into play.
    Whether it's supposed to or not doesn't really matter, I'm just conveying what actually happens. The problem with observing the phenomenon normally is that having abilities hit for the exact same amount and reaching the plateau of incoming DPS to actually see the change... as well as having isolated conditions where nothing else should be causing differences.

    Easiest place to see it is during the "heart room" smashing, as the damage of the smashing is fixed. Using only the tanking legendary meta proc and Barkskin always yielded a higher ending Vengeance than using higher-end cooldowns like Rook's and SI... and believe me, we had enough wipes on that encounter where I had time to notice. While I wanted to mess around with other raid CDs in action, I generally didn't want to risk it... Barkskin by itself could easily get me sub-5% HP from full (yay FR at high Vengeance), and I don't trust the legendary tanking cloak to proc when it should!

    *edit* - Figured I'd add the caveat I was thinking about giving no Vengeance, and that tends to occur with non-auto attacks that can be avoided. While the auto-attack Vengeance value shouldn't fluxuate too much, avoiding special attack won't yield a Vengeance gain. Regardless, the biggest observation that can be made is that everything is consistently inconsistent compared to how things are supposed to work.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2013-12-17 at 02:56 AM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    You are mistaken right there, dodges/parries use the bosses average melee swing to calculate damage, you do in fact 100% gain vengeance while avoiding attacks. You are only going to lose out on vengeance in situations where bosses melee damage can be spikey and give more vengeance than an average swing, which is a minimal difference.
    Or if the melee swing triggers effects on hit or is itself a special attack, or if the opponent is too low-level.

    On-hit effects is obvious, the effect never triggers and the damage just plain doesn't exist, meaning it can't give vengeance. Examples of this would be instant poison from He, or Corruption from the titanic corruption (also prevented by absorbs like T&C).

    Special attacks still use the old design for vengeance with avoidance: Reset the timer to 20s and keep the amount the same. Theoretically, it wouldn't change anything if fights lasted forever... but they don't, especially not the fight this is most prevalent on, Paragons, where the bosses that do that (Rik'kal, Skeer, Xaril, and Kil'ruk) aren't kept alive terribly long.

    And then of course lvl 86 and lower mobs (for a lvl 90 tank) don't give any vengeance at all on avoids. It just treats it like they never even attacked. Not at all relevant to current raids, but annoying to me nonetheless.

    Regardless, the biggest observation that can be made is that everything is consistently inconsistent compared to how things are supposed to work.
    No, they're surprisingly consistent about it.
    It's just combat is inconsistent in general. Small variations could just be from normal melee swing damage ranges for all it really matters.

    As far as cooldowns, the only ways they'll affect vengeance are:

    They wear off/apply right as a hit lands, between the damage being done, and vengeance being calculated. If they wear off right as a hit lands, the damage gets calculated with them still on and vengeance gets calculated as if they weren't, so the game thinks you took less damage. The opposite is true if they're applied with that timing, and in fact that's why there's a vengeance cap in the first place (see lvl 80 paladins soloing MSV, getting 500k vengeance from a zandalari warbringer's thunder crash with my monk, etc.)

    You don't use enough and a hit does more than your current health in damage. Either you die, or you absorb part of the hit and live, but you can still only get vengeance as if it did up to your current health in damage (after whatever DR you had active). E.G. Chimaeron meleeing for ~135k absorbed while I'm at 1 health, gives me a nice fat vengeance buff of "Increases your attack power by 0".

    The attack ignores damage reduction. As far as vengeance is concerned? No it doesn't. Take a monk, have them use diffuse magic and zen meditation against an attack that does 50k magic damage and ignores damage reduction. As far as vengeance is concerned, they just got hit for 5M damage. Fun times are had by people that aren't druids against Baleroc's Decimation Blade with this . Closer to home, this made paladins get extra vengeance on Ra-den, since Fatal Strike ignored damage reduction, was physical, and forced them to have at least about 50% Physical DR when it hit or it insta-killed them. As far as vengeance knew, it just did about 2x as much damage to paladins as it did to anyone else with that HP.
    Last edited by Braindwen; 2013-12-17 at 04:35 AM.

  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    No, they're surprisingly consistent about it.
    It's just combat is inconsistent in general. Small variations could just be from normal melee swing damage ranges for all it really matters.
    I meant more across a broad spectrum, not necessarily the same specific mechanic acting different attempt to attempt... although that is said with a grain of salt, as well. For example, back to the heart rooms, we had Annihilates randomly do double to triple the damage they were supposed to according to the combat log on people even with the appropriate damage debuff up (which is fixed now thankfully ). Our monk tank can occasionally get max Vengeance using tricks you were mentioning from the first Annihilate (even though it technically shouldn't apply... heck, he wasn't even standing in Annihilates to do it) during this phase. Anyways, I've been able to replicate the Vengeance scenario I described consistently with respect to Annihilates, so I just stick to what consistently gives me the best resulting Vengeance if I require/desire it.

    There have been quite a few other things that acted oddly during our heroic progression in terms of combat-related incidences that would concern tanks (whether it's just attacks/abilities not hitting correctly, mechanics behaving in an unexpected manner, or attacks/abilities being flagged improperly, which can translate to Vengeance being altered), but Blizz is pretty good about fixing most of them shortly after they're found. Sometimes they rate a blue post, however I'd say most others just get fixed w/o a word and most people never know about it.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  18. #1138
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Which ring should I drop for HC Swift Serpent Signet upgraded if I have 2 normal BiS rings (Reality Ripper and Restless Energy)?
    My armory can be found in my sig.

    I am asking cause right now my "weird reforges" allow me to swap my helmet and cloak so I would keep my needed caps.
    With helmet HC Blackened Tears upgraded DPS version (exp gem + dps meta; no reforges) + dps legendary (mastery reforged to exp; exp gem) I have 7.51% hit, 15.14% exp, 76.36% (bear) crit;
    With helmet HC Blackened Tears upgraded tank version (crit gem + tank meta; no reforges) + tank legendary (crit gem; haste from mastery reforge) I have 7.51% hit, 15.01% exp and 77.25% (bear) crit.

    So my question is which ring should I replace with the Swift Serpent signet to get the best stats? When I switch between tanking/dps setup the helm and cloak are only things which I change. (I just don't have enough gold to test various gemming and reforging options out (and I am not good at setting catus up so it would sim me).
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
    Proud RL of Mythic 8/14 HC Open Raid PUG

    Moderator of R & D | Open Raid
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  19. #1139
    Yes?

    I guess I'm not understanding the dilemma.

  20. #1140
    Yea.. not really understanding the part about the helm and the cloak regarding the ring, but replace restless energy ring as mastery isn't the most optimal stat.

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