[Guardian] - Patch 5.4 Survival Guide

[Arielle]

Ursoc Major HP% Bonus caps at 30%. you cannot get 100% like the above posters is saying.

With no haste (1.5sec GCD), you can get 16.667~ abilities in. Assuming 1 of those is a thrash.. and UM stacking 2% (to 30% cap) every attack.. you would need 15 multistrikes out of 15.66667~ possible attacks.

edit - UM is 2% gain per Multistrike of Lacerate/Mangle, or Lacerate tick. This lasts for 25 seconds and caps at 30%. and rolls like mage ignite/lock and load explosive shot.

With 25% haste (20%+5% raidbuff), dropping your GCD to 1.25 (My math may not be right on the haste->GCD stuff.. but bear with me)
You would get 20 attacks, 1 of which is thrash.. Leaving 19. 15 / 19 = requires 78% multistrike to maintain it at cap.

There is so much wrong here.....

1) UM has no cap.
2) You neglected to count each individual MS (MS is rolled twice for your MS %)
3) You ignored Lacerate ticks for some unknown reason, probably because you misread the ability and assumed it was Lacerate strikes, not ticks
4) You also ignored autos

[Arctagon]

Only sources of multistrike is the multistrike raidbuff which is 5%, windwalker monks give it.. i dont know who else does. Haromm's trinket gives multistrike too. with simply both of those, i seemed to maintain 15%~ bonus hp, which is a lot so i dont know what you are saying by it's not a lot, multistrike is stronger than stam ever was.

As far as how much it can stack.. the maximum amount can be pretty high, considering all things it can proc from. At 100% multistrike, you can definitely reach 100% bonus hp from lacerate ticks only, all mangles and autoattacks will give you even more, probably reaching in the 130%~ range... and haste lowers the gcd and increase your attack speed, so it can go even higher.

You'll want to have your hands on multistrike gear/enchants whenever you can use more hp during a fight.

If you are able to maintain the buff 100% and get high stacks then that changes things. But it's all chance, though, just like it is with the rest of bear play. We are probably the most squishy tanking class, seeing as how spiky the damage we take can be, contrary to other tanking classes who just takes less damage across the table. It all depends on how (un)lucky we are with dodging streaks. We also generally have less health than the other tanking classes. Now we are able to get more, though it's a temporary buff that can fall off if you don't have luck on your side.

That being said, I don't have any experience with it, so I'm not going to judge it before I have, but to me, depending on how it works, it seems unreliable and no that good (we haven't even valued stamina stamina since, when, WotLK?).


On another note, what do you guys mean with that 'it rolls like Ignite'? I know the mage spell, but I haven't played one for some time.

[Braindwen]

Yeah, if anyone wants a lazy benchmark for Multistrike on single target, you'd expect about 1.65% UM per 1% MS with no haste on gear. Haste boosts that, but not terribly much; 50% haste would bring that guess up to about 2%. Multi-dotting or a good berserk obviously help, whereas mass AoE obviously makes MS utter trash. Last, though not relevant right now, is pulverize is going to hurt MS, dropping it down to about 1.4% UM per 1% MS.

MS certainly looks WAY better than stamina at 90, though that's not surprising since all secondaries are kind of ridiculous atm. At 100 it's a bit of a different story. MS is a little better than stamina without pulverize, whereas with pulverize they're about the same health per point. Of course, stamina's health doesn't come with a ~45s ramp-up time, doesn't drop if you can't hit the boss for a phase, and doesn't come with the disclaimer "this is an average expected health, results could be higher or lower based on luck". You also still get 1.5 stamina per 1 secondary on trinkets. Stamina will still be the go-to stat if you absolutely need health, MS will just be an option to get extra health on non-trinkets, and to get health without sacrificing DPS.

So yeah, Haromm's is your health trinket right now if you want one, and MS>>Stamina. At 100, things change, because secondaries aren't quite as insane.

As a complete aside, I just noticed Drums of Rage don't shift me out of bear on the beta . That would have been really nice for shamans/spoils where I was either shifing or passing the drums to someone else to get us lust, but better late than never I guess.

Also:

And it can actually cast that fast, it doesn't have a forced 1s GCD.
That's more fun to spam that it should be .

We also generally have less health than the other tanking classes.

We have the highest stamina modifier, so we have generally more health than other tanking classes. The only thing that will beat a low MS bear is a DK, but an MS geared bear will beat anything.

On another note, what do you guys mean with that 'it rolls like Ignite'?

Everytime it procs, the new amount is calculated as:

New UM = 2% + Current UM % * (Time Remaining/25s)

E.g. if we have 20% UM and 23s remaining when we get a proc, it'll change to 20.4% (2 + 20 * (23/25)). The buff will pretty much always be up, that's not a concern. What you might see, though, is an expected 25% health buff bouncing up and down between about 20% and 30%.

[Arctagon]

We have the highest stamina modifier, so we have generally more health than other tanking classes. The only thing that will beat a low MS bear is a DK, but an MS geared bear will beat anything.

Not sure where you get this from, but if MS is as bad as you say, then why would you gear toward it?

Everytime it procs, the new amount is calculated as:

New UM = 2% + Current UM % * (Time Remaining/25s)

E.g. if we have 20% UM and 23s remaining when we get a proc, it'll change to 20.4% (2 + 20 * (23/25)). The buff will pretty much always be up, that's not a concern. What you might see, though, is an expected 25% health buff bouncing up and down between about 20% and 30%.

Ah, that explains a bit. Thanks.

[Dreyen]

Not sure where you get this from, but if MS is as bad as you say, then why would you gear toward it?.

MS isn't bad, it's a completly viable way to gear if you need the HP for the effective health. If you don't however, you're better off getting other stats. There is always some virtue in having more hp however.

[exochaft]

MS isn't bad, it's a completly viable way to gear if you need the HP for the effective health. If you don't however, you're better off getting other stats. There is always some virtue in having more hp however.

The real question is whether the EH it provides is needed at all. Considering how volatile the actual HP gains can be factoring in various encounter mechanics and it's natural randomness, I think it's safer to think of it as icing on the cake rather than the main tool for survival unless you purposefully stack it. Don't think there will be anyone complaining about someone having extra HP, and it will provide some EH buffer... but it's not as reliable as stamina would be when picking any moment in any given encounter.

Also, Guardians need to be viable assuming the bare minimum multistrike present on gear. If we weren't, that'd be a pretty big oversight in our survival.

As a side note, I don't know if Alliance has something similar, but Horde in Frostfire Ridge can get a zone buff that occasionally provides 100% Multistrike for a short duration. It's crazy fun until the buff wears off, and your next UM proc completely tanks your HP.

[Trubo]

Has anyone made a guide yet for Challenge Modes? I know there are things I can be doing better but christ, I feel like a pincushion on the first boss in Grimrail. Heroics haven't been too bad but that 4 global ramp up just to get a Pulverize up, coupled with swings of 60k from that orc, and I'm just dropping dead once Barkskin and/or Survival Instincts fall.

[Dreyen]

I personally just run guardian of elune, pulverize requires too much ramp-up and you can't guarantee a decent uptime when going from trashpack to trashpack. GoE can be timed with some abilities to the point where i was last on damage taked on the first boss in UBRS (With a good amount of absorbs to completly soak shrapnel nova from my discpriest...). GoE also allows you to spam thrash a lot more, which can be a significant rage gen boost and you can spread lacerates to maximise ursa major.

Other than that, cms are decently easy for me, some pulls are just rough and require good interrupting, soothing (lots of enrages in UBRS), dispelling, and CC.

One thing i really like is to use cenarion ward since its the best raw HPS talent. Typhoon is also a great repalcement for shieldwall because one typhoon and running away can give you 10+ seconds of not getting hit at all, or more if you combo it with ursol vortex. Bash can be a great disabler, glyph of fae silence is a great way to interrupt now that you don't use faerie fire in your rotation anymore.

Also, liberal use of CDs is always great.

[Natic]

Just a question, why is this thread still "Sticky"?

[Gothmog]

WoD raids are alive.

New feedback is available that does not belong in this thread.

Unsticky, and/or achive and create a new general Bear gossip tidbit thread of trading opinions back and forth.

I'd do it myself, but I don't have the recognition on the site.
If it doesn't happen in a day or two, I suppose I'll open one myself and hope for legitimation of it by better known and respected bears perusing the forum.

[Kaiarra]

WoD raids are alive.

New feedback is available that does not belong in this thread.

Unsticky, and/or achive and create a new general Bear gossip tidbit thread of trading opinions back and forth.

I'd do it myself, but I don't have the recognition on the site.
If it doesn't happen in a day or two, I suppose I'll open one myself and hope for legitimation of it by better known and respected bears perusing the forum.

The up to date version for WoD is here: http://www.theincbear.com/forums/vie...php?f=9&t=1324

As to why it has not been copied over to MMO, you would need to ask Arielle.

[Deleted]

Has anyone made a guide yet for Challenge Modes? I know there are things I can be doing better but christ, I feel like a pincushion on the first boss in Grimrail. Heroics haven't been too bad but that 4 global ramp up just to get a Pulverize up, coupled with swings of 60k from that orc, and I'm just dropping dead once Barkskin and/or Survival Instincts fall.

If you have any specific dungeon or trash questions feel free to ask since I got all gold Challenge modes done last week.
Also, I would not go with pulverize. Guardian of Elune worked way better for challenge modes overall since it allows you to tank a lot bigger trashpacks at the same time and take literally no damage while Savage defense is up.

[exochaft]

CM's also heavily depend on your comp, as bringing certain healer/DPS members make things either a breeze or a nightmare.

While I'm not sure how many have dabbled with it, I've become a fan of Disorienting Roar over UV depending upon the group. With how many casts are going out, sometimes adding DisRoar to a CC rotation is insanely good (helps with all those protected casts, too). In some scenarios, it even allows a Guardian to completely lockdown mobs solo. Only downside is that it inhibits kiting a little since you can't use UV.

For those that care about trash mobs in Highmaul, quite a few are susceptible to disorients, as well. Kind of funny in raids seeing mobs get typhooned/gripped/disoriented nonstop and never getting casts off.

[Dreyen]

I wish incapacitating roar was more than just a glorified interrupt, since incapacitates break on damage its guaranteed to not last long unless you agree with everyone not to touch the other mobs. I wish it wouldnt break on damage for guardian druids or became literally an aoe stun since were the only tank without an aoe stun i believe? perhaps paladins too.

[Rioo]

I haven't tried Roar but I do prefer Bash over Vortex because it's good for every kind of pack and not only packs where you have to kite, and can act as an extra interrupt. Getting rid of one mob for 5 seconds just means so much less damage taken. I don't do many CMs anymore but Roar sounds like a really good choice for heavy caster instances like Skyreach. Still, would be nice to see some change to make it better in raids.

>Dreyen

Yeah paladins can glyph Holy Wrath to stun a lot of different mobs, but since humanoids isn't one of them it's kinda pointless in WoD. Good for Shadowmoon, Everbloom and Auch I guess.

I tried some tanking today while trash farming in heroic. It's so nice to finally get some resolve and be able to use stuff other than SD without it feeling like a waste. But the stuns in there are pretty brutal when you're solo tanking.

[Deleted]

CM's also heavily depend on your comp, as bringing certain healer/DPS members make things either a breeze or a nightmare.

While I'm not sure how many have dabbled with it, I've become a fan of Disorienting Roar over UV depending upon the group. With how many casts are going out, sometimes adding DisRoar to a CC rotation is insanely good (helps with all those protected casts, too). In some scenarios, it even allows a Guardian to completely lockdown mobs solo. Only downside is that it inhibits kiting a little since you can't use UV.

For those that care about trash mobs in Highmaul, quite a few are susceptible to disorients, as well. Kind of funny in raids seeing mobs get typhooned/gripped/disoriented nonstop and never getting casts off.

I also prefer Disorienting Roar over UV in Challenge modes as it can be used as an sort of AoE interrupt. And there sure is a lot of thrashpacks that could use AoE interrupt in CMs.

[Eranthe]

I also prefer Disorienting Roar over UV in Challenge modes as it can be used as an sort of AoE interrupt. And there sure is a lot of thrashpacks that could use AoE interrupt in CMs.

nice avatar

[Exigent]

Hello fellow bears!

I just wanted to give a heads up to any achievement hunters out there that the Feat of Strength, You're Really Doing It Wrong, is ridiculously under-tuned. I completed the DPS version while in tank specialization and most of the waves were a complete joke (e.g. I finished most of them with 15+ seconds left on the timer). The only wave that gave me the slightest difficulty was the last one with burning down the Large Sha before the shield was reapplied... and even that was not challenging.

I imagine Blizzard may eventually get around to tweaking bear damage and/or Proving Grounds, so go get 'em

[Captainn]

Hello fellow bears!

I just wanted to give a heads up to any achievement hunters out there that the Feat of Strength, You're Really Doing It Wrong, is ridiculously under-tuned. I completed the DPS version while in tank specialization and most of the waves were a complete joke (e.g. I finished most of them with 15+ seconds left on the timer). The only wave that gave me the slightest difficulty was the last one with burning down the Large Sha before the shield was reapplied... and even that was not challenging.

I imagine Blizzard may eventually get around to tweaking bear damage and/or Proving Grounds, so go get 'em

Haha I have a feeling about that too. But other tanks are a little better at DPS so who knows.


Thanks for the heads up!

[Icecreamcake]

If you have any specific dungeon or trash questions feel free to ask since I got all gold Challenge modes done last week.
Also, I would not go with pulverize. Guardian of Elune worked way better for challenge modes overall since it allows you to tank a lot bigger trashpacks at the same time and take literally no damage while Savage defense is up.

Gear wise, what is the most optimal? Have all Mast/Crit on leather/armor and mastery/bonus armor on necks and rings? What about trinkets? I'm gearing up towards CMs now and I'd like to try them soonish.