[IDEA] Shadow Orb Generator

[Ellumina]

I would be pedantic and point out that I said 'had' ^^, but yes, I mean the old version that Warlocks had pre-5.0 but take away the healing aspect so it isn't *too* much of a gain in PvP.

My original inspiration for a Shadow Orbs Generator was a combination of the old Soul Harvest pre 5.0.4 (minus healing, because that's an unnecessary aspect for us) as well as Boomkins receiving Astral Communion. Then came my concern for said generator in a PvP setting, which is why I ended up branching out to so many random ideas.

[Venaliter]

Dispersion adding a Shadow Orb every 2 seconds was hands-down the best idea of the thread.

It would make DP-->Dispersion-->DP a very powerful move, though, and be basically uncounterable. Blizzard may make Dispersion removable at like they did with Divine Shield.

[Deleted]

Dispersion adding a Shadow Orb every 2 seconds was hands-down the best idea of the thread.

It would make DP-->Dispersion-->DP a very powerful move, though, and be basically uncounterable. Blizzard may make Dispersion removable at like they did with Divine Shield.

Personally, I have to disagree.
Dispersion is a very useful survivability tool. It has always been a survivability tool. Adding a DPS increase into one of the best defensive CDs in the game, even if you make it MD'able (or similar) like Divine Shield, so forth, makes it OP. It'll also stop shadow using it as a surviviability tool: Dispersion is currently on a 2 minute CD which is very useful for raids and big hits (DW HC comes to mind immediately) so IF blizzard did implement this (which, even as a fellow spriest, I have to hope that they don't) we would probably see a rise in CD and a loss in survivability. Couple this in with the fact that at 90 we aren't the best hybrid spec DPS-wise and our off-healing has become more burst-like (a slightly worse version of boomkin tranq or Elemental Healing Tide imo) and there isn't really much point in bringing us to a raid other than to be buff bots, and Stamina can be provided by other classes, and Haste provided by boomkin.

There is no need to take a concept that could easily be ridiculously OP when we can have something that solves the main problem we have currently (opening 'burst') without making us needlessly strong.

[NickCageFanatic]

You people realize that if a shadow orb generator gets put into the game then the damage of Devouring Plague has to be nerfed. Opening up with a DP crit in pvp is ludicrous damage. If we get to open with something like that, we then suffer damage loss.

I would still really love to open up with DP, but if I need to work some bit in order to get it such that the damage doesn't get hampered, I'm fine with that.

The only thing I feel shadow truly needs is some baseline dps cooldown or ability. Shadowfiend alone is boring, something new would be nice. I swear I spec into PI just so I have another cooldown to use and I feel stronger because of it :P (but not all the times XD)

[Venaliter]

There is no need to take a concept that could easily be ridiculously OP when we can have something that solves the main problem we have currently (opening 'burst') without making us needlessly strong.

It's not ridiculously broken. It would just be a very strong move in PvP and we'd likely have to be adjusted because of it. The ugly truth is we'll be expected, in all likelyhood, to start each fight with DP unless they add Orb Decay.

The only thing I feel shadow truly needs is some baseline dps cooldown or ability. Shadowfiend alone is boring, something new would be nice. I swear I spec into PI just so I have another cooldown to use and I feel stronger because of it :P (but not all the times XD)

Twintop over at Howtopriest.com did some math, and came to the conclusion PI + Shadowfiend is comparable to Avenging Wrath. We have to spec into the PI, but it's not the end of the world. Honestly, I really like that tier of talents. Divine Insight is probably one of the worst talents in the game, and needs a revamp, but it's otherwise an interesting choice between higher execute damage, a burst CD (albeit a fairly weak one) or a sustained damage boost (even a extremely crappy one) The new talent trees are really, really a step in the right direction, but still lacking polish.

Also over at HTP.com we are discussing how to fix insanity so that it's a DPS increase similiar to Mindbender, but more of a burst-style, where as Mindbender is sustained damage. Why don't you pop over there and share your thoughts?

[Celentes]

Personally, I have to disagree.
Dispersion is a very useful survivability tool. It has always been a survivability tool. Adding a DPS increase into one of the best defensive CDs in the game, even if you make it MD'able (or similar) like Divine Shield, so forth, makes it OP. It'll also stop shadow using it as a surviviability tool: Dispersion is currently on a 2 minute CD which is very useful for raids and big hits (DW HC comes to mind immediately) so IF blizzard did implement this (which, even as a fellow spriest, I have to hope that they don't) we would probably see a rise in CD and a loss in survivability.

In the way described, one orb every 2 seconds, it's not a dps cooldown, it's just not as much of a dps loss as it currently is. Adding a little bit more utility to it wouldn't really hurt or force us into some stupid decisions over how we should use it.

You people realize that if a shadow orb generator gets put into the game then the damage of Devouring Plague has to be nerfed. Opening up with a DP crit in pvp is ludicrous damage. If we get to open with something like that, we then suffer damage loss.

Not an issue for normal battlegrounds, for ranked and arena it's easily fixable by wiping your current shadow orbs upon the start of the match. You do not want to have your dispersion on cooldown when you open with devouring plague. Any decent team will detect it and make you pay for it. The benefit simply doesn't cover the cost.

[Yvaelle]

You people realize that if a shadow orb generator gets put into the game then the damage of Devouring Plague has to be nerfed. Opening up with a DP crit in pvp is ludicrous damage. If we get to open with something like that, we then suffer damage loss.

I would still really love to open up with DP, but if I need to work some bit in order to get it such that the damage doesn't get hampered, I'm fine with that.

If the Orb generator is Dispersion, then you would need to start an arena with Dispersion to open with Devouring Plague - which makes you a prime target for pressure (shadow is this anyways). So a nerf wouldn't be necessary - I can't think of many comps I'd be willing to dispersion as soon as the gates open just to get an initial DP out - and the only comp I could think of that would work with that kind of initial burst would be RPS or Shatterplay - but RPS isn't really a comp anymore - and I kind of doubt its return in MoP.

We often play comps with ramp-up times that don't get to full strength until combat's been going for 30-60 seconds really, big initial burst is more a Ret and/or Hunter and/or Enhancement comp thing.

[Myzou]

Although I like the idea, the reasoning is flawed.

Warlocks, as you noted, no longer have a way to quickly gain soul shards, burning embers, or demonic fury. Those all have to be built up. (Which, I might add, the latter two do it EXTREMELY slower than shadow orbs)

[Neptuno]

nobody has brought up the idea of a glyph that removes dispersion's damage reduction in exchange? i mean, if you had to sit there dispersed not attacking to generate orbs but didn't take reduced damage, that would be reasonable.

[Brusalk]

Although I like the idea, the reasoning is flawed.

Warlocks, as you noted, no longer have a way to quickly gain soul shards, burning embers, or demonic fury. Those all have to be built up. (Which, I might add, the latter two do it EXTREMELY slower than shadow orbs)

Except Demonology has a base 200 demonic fury and Destruction has a base 1 ember to use at the start of the fight. Meanwhile shadow has nothing at the start.

Demonic Fury is such a large dps increase when used that it makes sense for it to build up extremely slowly. (yet they have the ability to burn it early to get damage now)
1 burning ember gens as fast or faster than 3 shadow orbs IIRC.

I'm not sure if affliction starts with 4 soul shards at the start of a fight. I have a feeling it does but I have no clue.


Personally I'd like to see increased orb generation come with SFiend/mindbender like the old 4.3 4set t13. Maybe make it so that shadowcrawl gens an orb? That way it's somewhat predictable and not constant orbs, but you should get more orbs to use at the start of a fight with none. Doesn't fix any of the problems with not having any orbs at the start of the fight, compared to having orbs, but it does lessen the blow if they were to decide to make orbs decay out of combat.

That or they should just give us a shadow version of the moonkin ability that gives them the most beneficial state as a channel.

[Celentes]

nobody has brought up the idea of a glyph that removes dispersion's damage reduction in exchange? i mean, if you had to sit there dispersed not attacking to generate orbs but didn't take reduced damage, that would be reasonable.

Beats the purpose. You're taking out the main survivability cooldown we have for an orb generator that is a dps loss due to not doing anything for 6 seconds. Now, if you allow casting while dispersed with it, or make it simply generate 3 orbs instantly and vanish, that would be a tradeoff, but leads to the scenario I described before - all raiding priests (and possibly some pvp priests) will have to use it as it'll become a mandatory dps cooldown, unless the fight demands you to soak damage.