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  1. #1

    Warriors - Bottom of the barrel again? (Arms)

    Before I go on, I would just like to say that these opinions are formulated from PvPing on a near max PvP geared Warrior during these couple days and getting comfortable with the class. I am aware that what the PvP as of current is like is not exactly what it will be like at level 90, but it is indicitive of what one should expectm since all classes will be scaling exponentially (Class A wont magically get better than class B for no reason. To the contrary, Warriors are very gear dependant and are most likely going to be worse than currently due to their unique scaling).

    I digress, I have not seen anything redeemable about the Warrior class in PvP as of current. The Warrior I am playing on has a total damage reduction from Resilience of 65.17% and 24.04% damage increase from PvP Power. The Warrior is in full Cataclysmic with the exception of one of its trinkets and its sword is the lower-quality Cataclysmic one.

    Mobility feels like it hasn't changed, the amount of control that a Warrior can utilize feels almost non existent, self healing is low, and so is damage.

    Mobility;
    Although there was a slight buff to Heroic Leap, I feel that Warriors are still in the cold when it comes to mobility as a whole. In the first teir, which has the greatest effect on Warrior mobility, the only two talents which are of any use are Juggernaut and Double Time, as the stun from Warbringer is not actually that useful in most situations (especially seeing as Charge already has a small 1.5 sec stun). Now you are left with either a 12 second charge or being able to charge twice in a row, both incurring seperate 20 sec CD. Both have their uses, but I feel that out of the two the latter, Double Time, was far superior as it opens new vistas in regards to keeping on a target. I shall be the first to say that it doesn't really help unless you are facing a target without a root or slow (Warrior slows covered in the next part). Warriors have no way to counter slows or roots other than using a Trinket, or Bladestorm if you decided to keep that. In short it really feels like nothing has changed in terms of mobility since for every gap closer that Warriors have gotten, another gap opener has been put into the game, and roots just negate Warrior mobility completely.

    Control;
    Currently Warriors can potentially have up to 4 control abilities (including slows and stuns). Which are Hamstring, Piercing Howl, Shockwave, and Intimidating Shout. I feel we can all agree that the buff to Intimidating Shout is a nice one (1 min CD down from 5 min), but other than that our control is nearly non-existent. Hamstring, for one, is a melee ability which slows the target for 8 seconds (although the tooltip says 15) for 50% of their movement speed and also incurring a GCD. Sure, in theory, it is a great slow. But in practice it feels very underpowered. Every other melee class has their slow built into some form of DPS mechanic, even cuasing a slight amount of damage or having a special utility (Ex: Ret Judgement = Damage/HoPow). There is also the problem of keeping in melee range, which can be affected by latency or frames depending on your computer. In reality, the ability should be off the GCD and not cost rage, as it is already the least useful slow. But wait, Piercing Howl is there to save the day, right? True, Piercing Howl is a great slow, especially seeing as it is an AoE slow for 15 yards from the Warrior. Is it useful? Sure, it is a great slow as far as what Warriors have. Nothing bad can really be said about it other than the slight rage cost that it has isn't really needed but, hey, you cannot have everything. Other than that, there is Shockwave which, for all intents and purposes, is really nice with the exception of it not being a user-friendly ability for those with higher latencies. TL;DR, Warrior control hasn't really improved whereas everyone elses has exponentially.

    Self Healing;
    Warrior healing is at an all time low. With the only talent choices being Enraged Regeneration (1 min CD, 60 Rage cost, must be Enraged, +20% health [+10% instant, +10% over 5 sec]), Impending Victory (30 sec CD, +10% health on attack, Resets on kill [+20% on next use]), and Second Wind (+3% health/sec if below 35% health). Starting with Enraged Regeneration, I will be cruel and say this is a terrible self-heal. It costs the majority of your Rage to use, and you must be Enraged (which might require you to pop Berserker Rage in a tight spot which is better saved as an offensive ability or anti-incapacitate), it is not worth the bang for its buck. Moving onto Impending Victory, it feels like it gimps you more than anything else. It is, if anything, a btter version of Victory Rush, but it really doesn't expand the niche that Voctroy Rush has by much. The ability is also restrictive in the regard that you must be in melee range to use it, which really can screw you if you are vs. a ranged target and are in need of a quick heal before you die (Defensive CD covered in next section). Second Wind, being the last choice and apparently the most OP seeing as people keep complaining about it, really isn't as good as people seem to think it is. In theory it heals for about 4.5k per tick usually or about 5.5k if you pop Rallying Cry. Realistically, however, it will probably only be healing for about 2k - 3k as everyone and their mother has an MS or Healing Reduction effect of some sort, which makes the ability inneffective unless paired with Defensive CD. TL;DR, Warrior self healing leaves a lot to be desired, especially when compared to Cataclysm self healing.

    Defensive CD;
    As per usual, Warriors have a unique array of defensive CD. Currently boasting 2 spell reflects (Spell Reflect, Mass Spell Reflect), a damage reduction CD (Shield Wall), a health increasing CD (Rallying Cry), and a CD to defend against melee (Die by Sword). As per usual, nothing bad can actually be said about Warrior defensive CD. Maybe a small reduction in the CD of Rallying Cry is all that one could ask for in regards to defensive CD, but other than that the CD on the other abilties are more than fair. TL;DR, Warrior Defensive CD are, as per usual, good.

    Damage;
    This has to be the saddest thing about Warriors at the moment, their damage output, especially in comparison to other classes burst. Generally Warriors are not hitting hard, unless on lower resilience targets. The damage on moderately geared targets will generally range from 5k - 10k non-crit, to about 11k - 15k crits, with the higher end crits generally coming from Heroic Strike with Taste For Blood procs, Mortal Strike crits, or Shockwave crits. Execute, funny enough, will generally do a ridiculous amount of damage non crit (my lowest hit with the ability being about 30k or so), but that's about the only strong damage ability that a Warrior has (Besides Dragon's Roar which will become almost useless in PvP with the coming nerf). Deep Wounds, also, doesn't seem to be doing the damage it should be, since it is supposed to be both Rend + old Deep Wounds damage, but it could just be a scaling problem from 85 - 90.

    TL;DR, In summary, I don't see any redeemable qualities about Warriors in their current iteration. I am well aware that QQers are going to flame this, but I feel that the other classes self healing and damage are going to end up having Warriors left in the dust for another expansion.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  2. #2
    Warriors are damn good on beta to the point that they have some of the highest burst in the game, I'm not sure about live patch but they seem ok. From this post it just seems that you go into a bad BG, got mad and decided to complain. I've had this plenty of times. Even though I hate current patch for PvP atm, it will get better at 90.

    There are plenty of points that have relevance and some that don't. Self-healing for example is pretty strong on Warriors in MoP, not now because people get globalled thanks to stupid spell scaling. For example, my Rake and Rip crits as feral before the patch rarely crit over 10k on full Cata players but now, under 15k is a joke. That may not seem much but imagine 15k ticking every 2 seconds for 20 with Rip and Rake combined. If they have no self heals or cooldowns, I can kill them without making an effort past the opening pounce stun. It's just stupid.

    Another example, if I solo players all the time I will decimate them because feral healing is insane and you can't do anything about it other than 1 shot us in a stun. I can crit heal 120k on myself with an instant healing touch on a 1min cooldown without taking me out of cat, that's not even counting Survival Instincts, Barksin and Predatory Swiftness which also gives instant healing touch. Unless you're a fire mage or a BM hunter, you stand no chance 1v1 against a decent cat.

    The game is wildly imbalanced. Just wait.
    Last edited by RaZDaZ; 2012-09-01 at 04:49 PM.

  3. #3
    Go Fury.

    I am hitting pretty hard as fury.

  4. #4
    My friends are having a blast with Arms PvP, i guess it's a matter of taste.
    "PvE is like playing chess against an opponent that makes the same moves everytime"

    "PvP is like playing chess"

  5. #5
    Warriors at 90 have some of the highest burst of any class. Wait until 90 when it's balanced, PvP on live is a joke with Holy Pallies topping KBs in BGs and damage in arena.

    http://i.imgur.com/oTCdu.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRmgj...layer_embedded

    So yeah, wait for 90 or play Beta, live is a mess.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kejinx View Post
    Warriors are damn good on beta to the point that they have some of the highest burst in the game, I'm not sure about live patch but they seem ok. From this post it just seems that you go into a bad BG, got mad and decided to complain. I've had this plenty of times. Even though I hate current patch for PvP atm, it will get better at 90.

    There are plenty of points that have relevance and some that don't. Self-healing for example is pretty strong on Warriors in MoP, not now because people get globalled thanks to stupid spell scaling. For example, my Rake and Rip crits as feral before the patch rarely crit over 10k on full Cata players but now, under 15k is a joke. That may not seem much but imagine 15k ticking every 2 seconds for 20 with Rip and Rake combined. If they have no self heals or cooldowns, I can kill them without making an effort past the opening pounce stun. It's just stupid.

    Another example, if I solo players all the time I will decimate them because feral healing is insane and you can't do anything about it other than 1 shot us in a stun. I can crit heal 120k on myself with an instant healing touch on a 1min cooldown without taking me out of cat, that's not even counting Survival Instincts, Barksin and Predatory Swiftness which also gives instant healing touch. Unless you're a fire mage or a BM hunter, you stand no chance 1v1 against a decent cat.

    The game is wildly imbalanced. Just wait.
    Like I said, I am speculating based upon what I'm experiencing in game right now. I didn't play my Warrior to 90 on the beta, and I feel now that I should have to have seen if it was any better. I will probably wait until a short while after release and then level my Warrior.

    Don't get me wrong, I've always enjoyed Warrior PvP, but I wouldn't be able to justify leveling my Warrior to 90 if it's going to be blatantly weaker than my Mage or even my Ret.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Ferg's Avatar
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    i've actually found that running SMF in pvp right now is amazing, picking up double time, second wind, piercing howl, dragon roar, and mass spell reflect, glyphing gag order and hindering strikes

    its almost OP tbh....unstoppable really
    Have any questions about the Warlords beta? Ask me!
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaubertlives View Post
    Warriors at 90 have some of the highest burst of any class. Wait until 90 when it's balanced, PvP on live is a joke with Holy Pallies topping KBs in BGs and damage in arena.

    http://i.imgur.com/oTCdu.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRmgj...layer_embedded

    So yeah, wait for 90 or play Beta, live is a mess.
    They cant fix damage for mage that JUST USE ICE LAAAAANCE and destroy me in 5 secs, but hey! lets make a HOLY paladin dps 3 times a warriors dps.
    stupid excuse for (wait till lvl 90) beta's been up for how long and this bullocks made it to live without balancing that nonsense.
    Last edited by Gamez; 2012-09-02 at 04:47 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamez View Post
    They cant fix damage for mage that JUST USE ICE LAAAAANCE and destroy me in 5 secs, but hey! lets make a HOLY paladin dps 3 times a warriors dps.
    stupid excuse for (wait till lvl 90) beta's been up for how long and this bullocks made it to live without balancing that nonsense.
    They didnt balance for 85. Its balanced for 90....do you understand or are you raging to hard?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    They didnt balance for 85. Its balanced for 90....do you understand or are you raging to hard?
    Thank you. Why cant people get this through their heads? ITS. NOT. BALANCED. FOR. LEVEL 85. ITS. BALANCED. FOR. 90.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    They didnt balance for 85. Its balanced for 90....do you understand or are you raging to hard?
    Raging too hard, wtf was Beta / PTR for ? if its balanced to 90 then place a temporary nerf till level 90 is reached (probably many better ideas than this one that took me 5 secs to think of) instead of letting a healer run mayhem in a BG lol

  12. #12
    Short of the obvious level vs. balance issues, I think my Arms Warrior is in a good place. I'm floating between some choices, like Impending Victory or Second Wind. I have to watch rage use a little, but that's the only real change of merit. I find that in most cases Warriors are capable of damage in line with other classes, our issue is up-time on a Target, and that is pretty much the same as before. Personally, I just can;t complain.

    You mention Warriors being Gear Dependent, then dismiss the fact that the MoP gear, that has yet to be seem I might add, will only make things worse. Everything will be fine. For me at least....

  13. #13
    Its fun seeing these posts every single expansion.

    Vanilla TBC patch = "OMFG Paladins are OP AND KILL ME 2 secs :EWOIFE:!!!!!!!"
    TBC = "LOLRET"

  14. #14
    The last few months ive been playing warrior in beta and played a bit on live this week again. Live is a joke, lvl 90 is alot better. But, there is always a but..

    Our burst is great, our survival is crap. Our mobility is crap. As a warrior i bet you now you will be the target that is going to die first because its easy or be controled till a point where you'd rather just went afk and get that cup of coffee you've been wanting for so long.

    We are still not the awesome fearless warriors. All people that dont play warrior say warrior is fine, if not overpowered, but we recently have been nerfed with a change to the 4set bonus. Heroic leap not breaking roots and they put in a crappy speed increase. It adds nothing to the table realy. i generally jump on top of the target with hl and if i cant i bet i can charge him already. So 70% speed adds nothing compared to the old bonus, especially since everybody has a snare or root build into that awesome double/triple/quatro spell that does dmg debuffs roots slows and heals you at the same time (exagerate much? mebbe but you got the point). We have to use a gcd to put up a 15 sec slow in melee range, thats it. rofl.

    So, back to making this a constructive post with suggestions. Here are some from the top of my head:

    - Heroic Leap baseline like it is but with 30 sec cd - Glyph: Now increases the cd by 15 seconds but allows you to break free from roots.

    - Glyph: Your intervene now breaks roots. (so we have to target a teammate first as a "penalty" and intervene is on a decent 30sec cd).

    - 4set pvp bonus: Roots duratation reduced by 30%.

    These are already better then the 70% and yet not better then the old Heroic leap 4set bonus. I guess blizzard lost its touch of creativity and reason for something thats so very much needed in pvp.
    Last edited by Mielji; 2012-09-02 at 06:14 AM.

  15. #15
    Banned Frenikk's Avatar
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    Warriors are never happy.

  16. #16
    The fact that the heavy armored class has much better mobility but worse defensive CDs than the agile leather class wearer is kinda funny.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  17. #17
    without reading the OP - are you freaking kidding me? warriors own right now. their mobility and damage is awesome and even gets better (4piece MOP and avatar talent).

  18. #18
    Yesterday I killed 2 full cata rogues at once as arms. Both opened on me. And I was sword&board most of the time, shockwave and second wind spec. This was with the nerfed second wind version of 2%. I know they were bad players but still I haven't had so much fun for months. Shockwave, fear one, disarm the other one, die by the sword followed by shield wall, shockwave back from CD, fun fun.

    In the total of 10 bgs i did yesterday, I killed more mages than during the whole duration of cataclysm, so yeah, tell me we are bad.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaubertlives View Post
    Warriors at 90 have some of the highest burst of any class. Wait until 90 when it's balanced, PvP on live is a joke with Holy Pallies topping KBs in BGs and damage in arena.

    http://i.imgur.com/oTCdu.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRmgj...layer_embedded

    So yeah, wait for 90 or play Beta, live is a mess.
    Please people stop panicking...you ONLY have 3 weeks to "suffer" this shit..The poster I quoted is TOTALLY right....

  20. #20
    i dunno what game your playing but atm we are strong in pvp from what ive tested if played well we have great mobility our control is great if you go with shock wave a 40 sec stun on a 20 sec cd and a fear on a 1 min cd OK yer out self healing isnt the best but its not that bad and we have been given 2 great defensive cds for pvp which are so nice and on decent cds and tbh our damge is good ive been having 50k dragon roar crits and some 40k hc strikes crits with about 3 stacks of the debuff

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