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  1. #121
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seolla View Post
    The actual system mechanic for DE isn't revolutionary, you're right. But it's revolutionary in the sense that it completely changes the social experience of the MMO genre. I've never experienced so much co-operation with random people in the open world so much in my life; this itself is what made the game feel "alive" for me, it's much richer social experience than your traditional MMO.

    I mean compare to say WoW, look at what happens when you're levelling; you barely see anyone, and even when you bump into people (say on opening days of an expansion), you'd want to either AVOID these random people or try to tag as many mobs and loot as many quest items as you can before they do: you're working AGAINST each other; it's completely terrible social experience.

    In GW2, every where you go, you see people helping each other. A Dynamic event pops up, and you see 10-20+ people all hopping in; and the best of all, is that you WANT these people joining in, because they actually HELP speed up the process. When you are down, you'd see 2-3 people nearby all rushing to help you up, it's such a great experience.

    This should be the new standard social experience for any MMO moving forward, because a lot of people (me included) will have a hard time transitioning back to a static tag-the-mob levelling system after experiencing what's in GW2.
    I remember similar thing happening with Public Quests in WAR - the problem was that it didn't last past the first few months, when most players migrated from lower level zones into higher levels. Is there an incentive for me, for example, being level 80 in GW2 to come back to starter zone to do random events with newbies? I KNOW there is a possibility to do that, with level scaling and all, but is there an incentive? Because if there isn't, it might lead to low level zones being just as deserted as WoW as soon as initial wave passes and population thins a bit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-02 at 11:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Seolla View Post
    You mean like Heart quests and Personal Story quests?
    I found heart quests to be every bit as boring and grindy as events.

    By the way, as for scouts, yes I do use scouts, and the two lines that they give me is not enough for any kind of immersion.
    And also, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying GW2 is a bad game - not even close. For a price of a single player game with no subs, it's nothing short of amazing.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishu View Post
    You say that a trinity system is more fun because of the control you have. But in a trinity system the only one with control is the tank, everyone else just tags along. In GW2 everyone has ways to control the fight, and everyone is required to use them (at least in dungeons). I feel that everyone puts too much emphasis on the dodge system. It's not meant to be the primary way to avoid damage, it's meant to be a way to get out if you make a mistake. If you use your conditions properly the fights become a lot more manageable, and a lot more fun. But everyone has to do it, one person can't do it alone like in a trinity system.
    I am pretty sure dodge IS meant to be the primary way to avoid damage.

    Otherwise, how do you explain bosses like the last one in Sorrow's Embrace, who spawns a golem that autoattacks for 2, 000 fire damage with additional burning for ~2k every few seconds at range, aiming at several targets at once? I can only surmise that you are supposed to run around him like a headless chicken, dodging and blocking every few seconds to avoid dying to his autoattack. You can't blind him (or use a lot of special attacks in general) because he consumes conditions to heal himself. You also can't sidestrafe his projectiles because they move very fast. So yeah.

    And he isn't the only mob in game that has those bullshit one-shot hits that can only be avoided by dodge mechanics.

  3. #123
    Legendary! Digglett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    That was a rhetorical question. But thanks for dodging it.
    You wanted me to say there's grinding at 80, guess what? Every mmo is a grind, even at level cap. So what's your point here? If you don't like grind, I think you're playing in the wrong genre.
    Last edited by Digglett; 2012-09-02 at 03:20 PM.


  4. #124
    I do agree that there's a bit of disconnect with why you're doing things but if you look around and talk to NPCs you'll understand far more, it's just not enforced.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Collected View Post
    Try an elementalist. They have five traits (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Arcane) and each one offers different abilities.. so you can switch between them to suit different situations. For example I might switch to water if I want to heal a group.. or earth if I want to do some AOE and DOTS.. or fire if I just want to do DPS etc etc.. there is a LOT to do and if you're just sat there auto attacking mobs, you're not getting the max out of the combat system. I'm not sure how other professions are but elementalist certainly doesn't feel empty to me.
    Ele's were even worse because you can't change weapons in combat. Its pointless being given the choice to go Water and heal if you run out of abilities and have to switch to something you don't want to play.

    You spec Frost and then get forced into another element because you run out of abilities. Really boring.

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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by jtgizmo View Post
    What is it then? religious?[COLOR="red"]
    A design decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digglett View Post
    You wanted me to say there's grinding at 80, guess what? Every mmo is a grind, even at level cap. So what's your point here? If you don't like grind, I think you're playing in the wrong genre.
    Thank you captain obvious. But look, we are not discussing the grind itself. It's the amount of it.
    In other MMOs you have different shades of grind. First you got XP grind, then at the end game - you have rep grind, gear grind, pve progression grind, achievements grind, etc. All in moderate amounts.
    In GW2 - it's XP grind, and at the end game it's XP grind, and then eventually vanity grind thru the same grind used in the XP grind. Same grind different rewards.

    In other words there's little variety in GW2's grind.

    There are PVP and crafting grinds in most MMOs - but they are optional.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2012-09-02 at 04:26 PM.

  7. #127
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Thank you captain obvious. But look, we are not discussing the grind itself. It's the amount of it.
    In other MMOs you have different shades of grind. First you got XP grind, then at the end game - you have rep grind, gear grind, pve progression grind, achievements grind, etc. All in moderate amounts.
    In GW2 - it's XP grind, and at the end game it's XP grind, and then eventually vanity grind thru the same grind used in the XP grind. Same grind different rewards.

    In other words there's little variety in GW2's grind.

    There are PVP and crafting grinds in most MMOs - but they are optional.
    If all you're seeing is the grind, instead of what you're doing when grinding, I have to agree with Digglett - you're either playing the wrong genre, or at least the wrong game.

    I haven't once felt the grind in this game. Everything I've done in this game I've done with the intent of performing the actual activity, as well as a desire to see that activity through to completion, because I enjoyed the activity, not because "Gods, I need MOAR EXP!"
    In some cases I have done "grinding" for the sake of, say, improving my crafting disciplines to a higher rank, but I'm not even feeling the grind when doing that. I'm just running around easier areas, hunting down resource nodes, killing easy mobs for their resource drops. A "sit back and relax" mode, if you will.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-02 at 04:49 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  8. #128
    Legendary! Digglett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Thank you captain obvious. But look, we are not discussing the grind itself. It's the amount of it.
    In other MMOs you have different shades of grind. First you got XP grind, then at the end game - you have rep grind, gear grind, pve progression grind, achievements grind, etc. All in moderate amounts.
    In GW2 - it's XP grind, and at the end game it's XP grind, and then eventually vanity grind thru the same grind used in the XP grind. Same grind different rewards.

    In other words there's little variety in GW2's grind.

    There are PVP and crafting grinds in most MMOs - but they are optional.
    Dungeons, PVP, and the XP grind through the 80 zones are optional. It's no different from other MMOs.


  9. #129
    Pandaren Monk schippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtgizmo View Post
    What is it then? religious?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-02 at 04:10 PM ----------



    fights for stonemist can involve more than 80 players vs 80 players that goes on for hours, whilst smaller battles rage all around them

    Upgrade keeps then if you want WP's
    There is a difference though.. where getting back into the epic battle in AV took 1 minute. It takes here easily 5+ minutes and that walking alone is what makes me half the time simply leave im not their to walk around and look at flowers im their to murder enemies.

  10. #130
    Bloodsail Admiral Ishu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schippie View Post
    There is a difference though.. where getting back into the epic battle in AV took 1 minute. It takes here easily 5+ minutes and that walking alone is what makes me half the time simply leave im not their to walk around and look at flowers im their to murder enemies.
    That's only in the beginning of the match. You can build additional waypoints once you upgrade the keeps enough. You won't see them in the start where battles only last 24 hours, but once we start the full-time matches you'll see the waypoints pop up after a few days.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    If all you're seeing is the grind, instead of what you're doing when grinding, I have to agree with Digglett - you're either playing the wrong genre, or at least the wrong game.
    Let me decide that, ok? I can endure the grind, but I will complain about it nonetheless.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I haven't once felt the grind in this game. Everything I've done in this game I've done with the intent of performing the actual activity, as well as a desire to see that activity through to completion, because I enjoyed the activity, not because "Gods, I need MOAR EXP!"
    Really? Well here's an example. I did my current story quest and the next quest tells me i need to be level 26. But I'm level 24. MOAR XP. I have the intent to perform the "story quest" activity. But required to do those events 10 moar times, first. In the area I already 100% explored. What? You're gonna suggest me to go to OTHER starter areas? Been there, done that. There's really no choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digglett View Post
    Dungeons, PVP, and the XP grind through the 80 zones are optional. It's no different from other MMOs.
    If that's optional what's there to do then?
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2012-09-02 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #132
    Legendary! Digglett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    If that's optional what's there to do then?
    If PVE, PVP, and everything else in WoW is optional, what is there to do? MMOs tend to give you different options at level cap. Again, this is no different, it's about what you want to do.

    If nothing appeals, then uninstall the game, no sub fee is holding you in place.
    Last edited by Digglett; 2012-09-02 at 05:10 PM.


  13. #133
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I did my current story quest and the next quest tells me i need to be level 26. But I'm level 24. MOAR XP.
    Doing it wrong.

    I've just been going around, doing hearts and events and exploring the map. And every now and then I go "Oh yeah, Personal Story is back there."

    And ya know what? It's 3-4 levels behind. This game rewards, above everything else, wild and undirected exploration. The irony being that when you try to funnel your leveling as quickly and rapidly as possible, ignoring things that you deem "unimportant" or "not fun" then you will actually level slower.


    If you're ballsy enough, you can even still do the personal story regardless of level. They're not impossible to do when under-leveled, just more challenging.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-02 at 05:14 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Doing it wrong.
    I don't know if the last guy is Charr, but this has happened to me. I've done the Charr starter area and city 100% while hitting all of the dynamic events that have popped up around me (basically what you have,) and I've fallen behind the curve a few times in the next zone. I do think the game is pretty fun though, not genre redefining by a longshot but definitely fun. My biggest gripe so far is no cast bars on enemies bigger skills that you're supposed to dodge, especially when they have little to no animation or telegraphing of them.

  15. #135
    When the current 'standard' for MMO's has terribly easy leveling, to the point where you'll outgrow a given zone FAR before you actually complete it, you wind up with threads like this.

    Kinda sad, really.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  16. #136
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
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    Leveling in this game isn't hard. It's annoying for them.
    Last edited by Ninaran; 2012-09-02 at 05:35 PM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Digglett View Post
    If PVE, PVP, and everything else in WoW is optional, what is there to do? MMOs tend to give you different options at level cap. Again, this is no different, it's about what you want to do.
    Then go read again what I wrote. In wow at the end game you will have NEW things to do. Plethora of them to choose from. In GW2 - it's the same thing you did during level up. It's not the bad thing - it's just the reason why it feels grindy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digglett View Post
    If nothing appeals, then uninstall the game, no sub fee is holding you in place.
    refrain from telling me what to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Doing it wrong.
    Is there the one and only way of doing things?
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I've just been going around, doing hearts and events and exploring the map. And every now and then I go "Oh yeah, Personal Story is back there."
    How is it different from going to do the same to get to level 26?
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    The irony being that when you try to funnel your leveling as quickly and rapidly as possible, ignoring things that you deem "unimportant" or "not fun" then you will actually level slower.
    Haha, that's academic definition of grind. If you ignore things that are not interesting of fun for you - you will be penalized. Haha. So you kinda HAVE TO do those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    If you're ballsy enough, you can even still do the personal story regardless of level. They're not impossible to do when under-leveled, just more challenging.
    Waste of time.

  18. #138
    Pandaren Monk schippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    When the current 'standard' for MMO's has terribly easy leveling, to the point where you'll outgrow a given zone FAR before you actually complete it, you wind up with threads like this.

    Kinda sad, really.
    The problem is they promised you to be able to level how you wanted. YOu could do DEs or simply explore and do normal quest / story quest.
    And thats not really the case if you dont do DEs you will get behind fairly quickly.

    Also its really black and white what you state. A balance between the two would be nice. Let people level how they wish, and not force one way on them. A good balance between xp needed and hearts would be quite nice. I think if you complete a whole zone you should be the level indicated as the max level of that zone. That would be good balancing.

  19. #139
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    When the current 'standard' for MMO's has terribly easy leveling, to the point where you'll outgrow a given zone FAR before you actually complete it, you wind up with threads like this.

    Kinda sad, really.
    When you have a generation of people who post on forums without reading, you will end up with responses like this.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by schippie View Post
    You could do DEs or simply explore and do normal quest / story quest
    They've never said that. Leveling how you want means that you can do it either through general PvE (which includes DEs, exploration and personal story), crafting or WvW. You can't level if you just do your personal story, or just Hearts.

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