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  1. #61
    Well, you could argue that GW2 is at least genre defining for the "buy to play, cash-shop enhanced, w vs w vs w centric fantasy mmo" sub-genre, as there aren't many "big" mmos covering that niche yet, so this sub-genre can still be defined.

  2. #62
    It's not genre defining, as it doesn't define a new genre, it's genre redefining, as it does the same stuff differently.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  3. #63
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grable View Post
    It's not genre defining, as it doesn't define a new genre, it's genre redefining, as it does the same stuff differently.
    Well, it doesn't it just puts all the stuff other games have done in to one and as such doesnt redefine anything, I dont think the MMO market will be redefined until we get true sandbox/player created gameplay.

  4. #64
    To sum up for me:

    GW2 define a new genre in the way that it shows that providing a very large amount of high quality content is possible without subscription. It makes look stupid the pace at which content is released in other MMO which you usually pay 18 month of subscription and an expansion box (18*15$ + 50$ = 320$) for 5-6 pexing/daily questing area 3 tier of raids and 5+3 dungeons every year and half.

    The content/price ratio from GW is probably what makes it the most redefining compared to the ratio of cataclysm/320$ (I'm not talking about content quality).
    That content/price ratio is also a giant slap in the face to a game like Diablo 3 that cost the same, but has like 1/50th of the content.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Well, it doesn't it just puts all the stuff other games have done in to one and as such doesnt redefine anything, I dont think the MMO market will be redefined until we get true sandbox/player created gameplay.
    That is exactly why it redefines. Sandbox is a different genre.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  6. #66
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekira View Post
    To sum up for me:

    GW2 define a new genre in the way that it shows that providing a very large amount of high quality content is possible without subscription. It makes look stupid the pace at which content is released in other MMO which you usually pay 18 month of subscription and an expansion box (18*15$ + 50$ = 320$) for 5-6 pexing/daily questing area 3 tier of raids and 5+3 dungeons every year and half.

    The content/price ratio from GW is probably what makes it the most redefining compared to the ratio of cataclysm/320$ (I'm not talking about content quality).
    That content/price ratio is also a giant slap in the face to a game like Diablo 3 that cost the same, but has like 1/50th of the content.
    My old love LoTR did just as good a job, so no it doesnt redefine that at all.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2012-09-04 at 08:06 AM.

  7. #67
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebbah View Post
    - The gameplay is nothing like Tera. Tera IS a true action combat. In this game you still have a "Tab targeting". If you would have played Tera you would have known that.
    - Story quests are nothing like SWTOR. The story telling in SWTOR is the best one in an MMO to date. To bad it's the only thing Bioware nailed in their game.
    - Graphics are good but are nowhere near new age. I've taken a good look at them and while it has cool textures the polygons are still low on many objects. Again Tera has way more polygons per object then GW2 and arguably better textures.
    - Dynamic event aka a Rift rip-off.
    - no P2W cash shop. Maybe, we will see what the future brings.
    - B2P the good thing about the game, I won't deny that.
    - It doesn't even come close to the SWTOR or WoW lore.
    - Wouldn't agree that a game which roots you in place with just about every attack is a "true action combat" game. Although I will praise them for their ranged aiming mechanic, in terms of melee it's just about identical to how GW2 does it in the terms of "if it's in range of your swing, you damage it" - bar the rooting, of course.
    - The story quests are nigh identical to SWTOR, even to the point of taking you to a separate instance for your quest - it's even better, really, considering you're not artificially barred from seeing this tavern because you're not the correct class. The story telling is most likely better in SWTOR, but that's a different question altogether.
    - Yes, TERA has a higher graphical fidelity than GW2. Doesn't change the fact that GW2 has a significantly higher graphical fidelity than what is considered the staple or rolemodel of the MMO genre. Also, art style is subjective, and people may prefer GW2's art style over TERA's.
    - X is always a ripoff of Y. TERA's elves is a ripoff of Tolkien. Firefox is a ripoff of Explorer. TV is a ripoff of newspapers. None of this should come as a surprise to you or anyone. The truth is, dynamic events have been used in many, many games, far before RIFT decided you use them in their game. And lest anyone forget, every game is ultimately a ripoff of Pong.
    - No arguments on the "no P2W cash shop" comment.
    - Again, no arguments.
    - SWTOR has great lore; Warcraft, not so much. It had great lore, sure... but that's in past tense. Ever since Green Jesus, Warcraft lore has been objectively going downhill. Doesn't make it a bad game however.


    Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not saying GW2 is a flawless game and that I'd defend every aspect of it. It has its flaws, some of which are of somewhat great importance to me. But none of the things you've criticized about it are accurate.
    Last edited by Jigain; 2012-09-04 at 08:11 AM.

  8. #68
    Pit Lord HBpapa's Avatar
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    I agree with you on several points, but not others:


    Quote Originally Posted by Slipper View Post
    The world events are basically just quests you don't have to pick up or hand in, as most of them take place in the same way in the same place, like a quest does. Also this is hardly a new concept - they are identical to rift's in Rift just more common.
    I agree with this and I'm interested to see how they evolve their dynamic events when Storm Legion hits. My guess is their version of DE's will be more common and more seamless with the expansion (already seen hints of this with the videos I've seen so far).

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipper View Post
    The graphics aren't "ground breaking" in the sense that TERA's are as good if not better.
    Completely subjective. I HATED the graphics in Tera, it just didn't appeal to me at all. I love the watercolor/painted/handcrafted look of GW2...its pleasing to my eye. Reminds me more of spending time at 'The Getty' instead of a sterile world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipper View Post
    The story quests are great but again, this was done in Age of Conan and SWTOR.
    Agreed, although if you want top-notch writing and voice acting then TSW takes the cake in that regard. (never played AoC so it might be right up there as well, idk...swtor's writing was bleh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipper View Post
    Points of Interest are quite cool but again, all you do is run to them and 90% of the time there is nothing there to do.
    Also agreed, it would be nice if there was an NPC that ran up to you and said, "Help! Centuars are giving roofy's to my horses! Please help stop them!" like they randomly walk up to you in other areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipper View Post
    "Skill Challenges" are similar / the same as puzzles in Rift or running into an elite rare in WoW.
    I'm having fun with them. Although they aren't much of a challenge when there are multiple people around...they don't seem to scale with the group size so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipper View Post
    It has a cash shop that sells armor skins, experience boosts, pets, more bank space etc which you'd get in most F2P mmos in a cash shop and free in most paid mmos.
    This is where I strongly disagree with you.

    I have had more boosts, dyes, and temporary skins of varying types drop than I know what to do with at this point. I haven't paid for anything other than the game. Holding on to the XP boosts in case I get to a zone I really don't like and want to get through it as quickly as possible. I think I have close to 10 xp boosts at this point.

    Bank size is more than reasonable as you have a separate window for storing crafting materials which holds a shit-ton and which is shared between each of your toons. My guardian has access to the cooking mats dropped in there by my mesmer through that 'deposit collectibles' thing when you right click a mat. You can also craft bigger and bigger bags as you progress in crafting. The only thing my bank has in it are the boosts that have dropped and a few partially crafted items that I will be coming back to later. I could see bank size being an issue later on, but I'm not against spending a little IRL cash if I need it bad enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slipper View Post
    I enjoyed GW2, but I don't feel it is even close to "genre defining" and was fairly let down by how ordinary it is for an mmo. I am not here just to bash it, im curious to see why some people declare it genre defining and if anyone else agrees.
    I don't think its genre defining and kind of wonder the backgrounds of those making that declaration as well. It borrowed from the first game and borrowed from other previous MMOs as well...what it didn't borrow as heavily from is WoW which makes for a nice alternative to the game and the clones that have sprung from it. Rift, which was a WoW clone, is slowly but surely incorporating more GW2-ish aspects and I'm really curious how things are going to play out over the next year for them. I can see them becoming very popular with ex-WoW players (more so than they already are) in the coming year.
    Last edited by HBpapa; 2012-09-04 at 08:15 AM.
    Atheist, pro-gun, pro-Constitution, anti-racism, pro-equal rights for e...v...e...r...y...o...n...e

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    - Wouldn't agree that a game which roots you in place with just about every attack is a "true action combat" game. Although I will praise them for their ranged aiming mechanic, in terms of melee it's just about identical to how GW2 does it in the terms of "if it's in range of your swing, you damage it" - bar the rooting, of course.
    This. One might think there is a lot of difference between TERA's action combat and GW2's, but there really isn't much (apart from ranged). You have predefined attack animations with both, with both you can outrange, except TERA locks you in place, which made me dislike the game a lot. I do agree TERA's is a bit more actiony, but not that much really.
    Last edited by Grable; 2012-09-04 at 08:13 AM.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sebbah View Post
    - The gameplay is nothing like Tera. Tera IS a true action combat. In this game you still have a "Tab targeting". If you would have played Tera you would have known that.
    - Dynamic event aka a Rift rip-off.
    Have you even played the game? You don't need to target anything to hit it...tab target is just an extra option. go near a mob and swing your abilities without target it and you still hit. is just an extra option. Tera combat is very lame, worst I ever played. Also GW2 Dynamic events have nothing to do with rift...fiat uno is a car and Ferrari is also a car, doesn't mean they are the same.
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  11. #71
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    Have you even played the game? You don't need to target anything to hit it...tab target is just an extra option. go near a mob and swing your abilities without target it and you still hit. is just an extra option. Tera combat is very lame, worst I ever played. Also GW2 Dynamic events have nothing to do with rift...fiat uno is a car and Ferrari is also a car, doesn't mean they are the same.
    "Would" you actually not tab target though? You're handicapping yourself when you don't need to. You're making it harder on yourself and in that essence it really isn't an option if you want to perform at your best and accidentally screw over your party. Others already said the same thing as it's an extra. Fact though after I ask whether they wouldn't use tab target because it's an option, answer is no.
    In Tera you're forced into it. Whether you like the combat or not is a different thing.
    Also the 'rooting' yourself, do you want to be broken? To be able to perform a very strong attack and still move just as fast and have absolutely no repercussion is pretty broken.
    I believe some people complain about it in GW2, and it's there for a reason.
    Last edited by Remilia; 2012-09-04 at 08:51 AM.

  12. #72
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Also the 'rooting' yourself, do you want to be broken? To be able to perform a very strong attack and still move just as fast and have absolutely no repercussion is pretty broken.
    I believe some people complain about it in GW2, and it's there for a reason.
    Whether you consider it to be broken or not isn't what we were discussing, though. It was whether or not rooting into place is "true action", which it clearly is not.
    Last edited by Jigain; 2012-09-04 at 08:55 AM.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    attack and still move just as fast and have absolutely no repercussion is pretty broken.
    There's quite a few games with very decent combat system that let's you move while you attack and is not broken.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  14. #74
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grable View Post
    There's quite a few games with very decent combat system that let's you move while you attack and is not broken.
    Issue I have with the idea though is if there is no repercussion, no risk reward for a PVP situation at the very least, then you wouldn't have to worry one bit when pressing that button. When you have different types of ability ranging from a slow strong hit to a fast smaller hit, there has to be a cost. Move and attack is fine for small things, move and attack for everything will become broken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    Whether you consider it to be broken or not isn't what we were discussing, though. It was whether or not rooting into place is "true action", which it clearly is not.
    So what do you define true action?

  15. #75
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    So what do you define true action?
    True: being in accordance with the actual state or conditions; conforming to reality or fact; not false.
    Action: the process or state of acting or of being active.
    Combat: to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously.

    From this, I derive that "true action combat" is "fighting (combat) in a never-ceasing (true) mobile and active (action) fashion".

  16. #76
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeHoney View Post
    there is no more competition in pve...

    play ANY other mmo and there would be competition in pve...

    that to me, is quite genre re-defining...and MUCH welcome!

    pve is now about co-operation, thank you anet!!
    ^

    Except the part where specific objects are global and only one person can pick up, like giving wild crabs to a crab herder (some heart in a level 45-55 zone), or picking up ghostly items to put them in a treasure box. When it's global, it pisses me off.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  17. #77
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Dalliah- View Post
    So basically every boss battle in WoW (or other games) that requires you to avoid bad stuff on the ground?
    No, because you cease moving in order to do damage. In fact, most of the combat done in that game is done while standing entirely still.

    Also, a game is not a "true action combat" game because there's this one fight that adheres to this principle - which again, your example does not.

  18. #78
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    In addition, for ONLY $60, you get an updating and active game that costs the same as a crappy remade xbox game, like all the new shitty CoD games they make every 6 months or so.

    That alone is enough to buy it if you enjoy MMOs.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  19. #79
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jigain View Post
    True: being in accordance with the actual state or conditions; conforming to reality or fact; not false.
    Action: the process or state of acting or of being active.
    Combat: to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously.

    From this, I derive that "true action combat" is "fighting (combat) in a never-ceasing (true) mobile and active (action) fashion".
    If you've ever swung a sword in real life, whether it be a katana or hell for the fun of it a 'great' sword, or just even an axe to chop wood. You can NOT run around and swing that thing effectively. If you want to have the maximum force / ability, and hell the tool at hand sometimes forces it, you'll be using quite a bit of your body mass. Moment your tool stops, there is going to be an opposite force applied to you when your hands try to retract said tool back, or you can throw it, that's also fun.
    I assumed ANet knew this bit, it's not going to happen in real life, if you want it to conform to reality, then make it conform to reality.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Issue I have with the idea though is if there is no repercussion, no risk reward for a PVP situation at the very least, then you wouldn't have to worry one bit when pressing that button. When you have different types of ability ranging from a slow strong hit to a fast smaller hit, there has to be a cost. Move and attack is fine for small things, move and attack for everything will become broken.
    What...

    Check this video, it's full of move and attack. Might be confusing because it's pro's playing, but this is basically the best melee system in the game world right now. True action, skill based.



    Now imagine this in an MMO. I'd jizz.
    Last edited by Grable; 2012-09-04 at 09:33 AM.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

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