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  1. #1

    Hit = Gearscore in Rift

    I have this theory currently that at some point a dev sat back and said, "we are not releasing raid content at a fast enough pace to make it last and elite guilds are not feeling special enough, so we need to make it more exclusive". At this point I assume this dev started making the gaps in HIT between raid tiers 100 points.

    An unintentional or even intentional affect of this has made hit into gearscore. Originally as Storm legion evolved the obvious difference from Vanilla was that achievements became a requirements when they really were not before. This started late in Vanilla and with Infernal Dawn as they all of a sudden made the gear damn near impossible to get.

    People actually use to get laughed off a server for trying to make raids so exclusive by requiring achievements and it was pretty nice. Then came Storm Legion and the idea that they would gate content with heavy rep requirements, massive grinding, and hit. So some dev set the requirements for a tier 1 raid at 400, but the real requirement is 520 + the end boss achievement.

    At this point you might go "There has to be some raids not requiring this and to you I would say bullshit". I spend a lot of time in Rift and probably far too much time staring at chat and a obvious fact has arisen. If you miss the achievement when everyone else is getting it in tier 1 then to be honest with you do not even bother playing Rift. Just don't bother because you have been left behind.

    You might go "Join a guild scrub". Well guess what everyone is doing that and guild raids for tier 1 content are getting filled and big shocker we are close to the next expansion and on the 3rd tier so who has time to gear up random people joining the game.

    I sit here as a guy with probably 5,000 hours played in this game and close to 3,000 spent in this game with cash shop, subscription, and various other random shit and I have never finished any of the tier 1 raids ever since storm legion came out. I constantly finished raids, but ever since Infernal Dawn and this dramatic shift in raid philosophy if you missed the bus then too bad you are left behind.

    I am writing this as a warning to anyone wanting to play Rift to set your expectations extremely low. Threads have begun popping up even amung the most loyal on the forums questioning why in the fuck has Trion not nerfed tier 2 content. At some point Trion needs to pull a page from Blizzards book and publically publish the raid achievements so that players and fan site can compile just how many people have finished tier 1, 2, and 3 content.

    Example: http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...-question.html

    Judging by what I have seen from my massive amount of time wasted in Rift it is pretty clear a large section of this game population has been sitting on tier 1 content and maybe some mini bosses, but no real progression outside of some test guilds. EU is basically dead, the game has devolved into pointless raiding with no real progression, and other parts of the game have turned into ways to milk the playerbase to buy crap from the cash shop...budgie, unicorn, greenscale troves as the best examples.

    At this point I am uninstalling Rift for the same reasons that I uninstalled WoW. After what seemed like a peek the devs simply stopped caring and just assumed that the next expansion would sell more copies and that there would be a never ending rise in population. The devs have become so caught up in the elitism that they do not realize that asking for 520 hit in 400 hit tier 1 raids is simply wrong. I could see 420 hit to guarantee you do not have anyone miss but monkey see monkey do right now in Rift and I am done hoping Daglar will lead and take this game back to its former glory.

    TLDR: In Rift HIT = Gearscore and the game strongly resembles WoW pre Lich King raid in WotLK community and elitism.
    Last edited by Puremallace; 2014-05-27 at 02:20 AM.
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  2. #2
    I agree the difficultly curve of the t2+ raids kinda went pear shaped in Rift. Those Hit reqs got too steep and honestly not everything was equally worth the effort.

    Recruiting for raiding in our guild came to a standstill for months. There just weren't enough people with the actual gear or experience. And we would have to invest a lot to get one or two up to par. Just hoping they stick around too.

    I remember we geared this Rogue and Warrior a bit for IG. They stood around for like 2 weeks and never logged in again. But that was hours of our collective raid time, plat and general time spent advising/crafting/discussing with these two.

    The gap between tiers is too much.

    I don't raid in Rift anymore. I just mess around on "fun runs" with my guildies sometimes. A shame, because it's decently good raid content. But there aren't enough people to do it given natural turnover of an MMO.

  3. #3
    I raided in rift back when the game first released, and stopped when we full cleared HK. Was great fun and am sorry to hear it has fallen to such a state after F2P released.

    Goes to show F2P may be financially sound, but not sound in giving fun to players.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    I raided in rift back when the game first released, and stopped when we full cleared HK. Was great fun and am sorry to hear it has fallen to such a state after F2P released.

    Goes to show F2P may be financially sound, but not sound in giving fun to players.
    IIRC it was like this before it went F2P. I remember groups advertising before the transition requiring the achievement for the raid they're recruiting for, as well as 500 hit for T4 raids.

    It's less a factor of business model, and more a factor of simple social dynamics. WoW had the same thing with gearscore, and now with ilvl with regards to its pug raids and it's a subscription game. People don't want to run the risk of having to actually try in pug raids, they'd much rather get overgeared folks looking for a few last pieces of gear to help carry them through the smoothest run possible.

  5. #5
    The Hit was the only reason i stopped raiding/playing Rift back in ID.

    Its an unnecessary block for recruiting people.

    Every time someone would quit or couldnt raid etc you were fucked..Recruiting at ID became "Wait for another guild to kill itself and grab the remains".

    Simply because hit rating wasnt a basic value as it is on every game and it was scaling with gear.

    Therefor you couldnt recruit a T1 player and put him as a Bard for example and the old geared Bard to DPS because fuck you, thats why or simply have a bit less DPS instead of your usual, because again..Fuck you, the characters cant even land hits.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    I raided in rift back when the game first released, and stopped when we full cleared HK. Was great fun and am sorry to hear it has fallen to such a state after F2P released.

    Goes to show F2P may be financially sound, but not sound in giving fun to players.
    It really has nothing to do with F2P. It's not like Trion stopped putting out raid content or that Hit is obtained via cash shop. There is no correlation between F2P and the increasing difficulty of the raid content.

    Rift has always been highly tiered. The difference is post-ID, the tier thresholds grew higher with fewer able to meet them aside from the very top raiders.

    Most people just can't do this content- I don't mean unable to learn/play the game. I mean they literally can not do it because they don't have the gear necessary to unlock it. The only way to get that gear is through a full progression of the older raids.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    I have this theory currently that at some point a dev sat back and said, "we are not releasing raid content at a fast enough pace to make it last and elite guilds are not feeling special enough, so we need to make it more exclusive". At this point I assume this dev started making the gaps in HIT between raid tiers 100 points.

    An unintentional or even intentional affect of this has made hit into gearscore. Originally as Storm legion evolved the obvious difference from Vanilla was that achievements became a requirements when they really were not before. This started late in Vanilla and with Infernal Dawn as they all of a sudden made the gear damn near impossible to get.

    People actually use to get laughed off a server for trying to make raids so exclusive by requiring achievements and it was pretty nice. Then came Storm Legion and the idea that they would gate content with heavy rep requirements, massive grinding, and hit. So some dev set the requirements for a tier 1 raid at 400, but the real requirement is 520 + the end boss achievement.

    At this point you might go "There has to be some raids not requiring this and to you I would say bullshit". I spend a lot of time in Rift and probably far too much time staring at chat and a obvious fact has arisen. If you miss the achievement when everyone else is getting it in tier 1 then to be honest with you do not even bother playing Rift. Just don't bother because you have been left behind.

    You might go "Join a guild scrub". Well guess what everyone is doing that and guild raids for tier 1 content are getting filled and big shocker we are close to the next expansion and on the 3rd tier so who has time to gear up random people joining the game.

    I sit here as a guy with probably 5,000 hours played in this game and close to 3,000 spent in this game with cash shop, subscription, and various other random shit and I have never finished any of the tier 1 raids ever since storm legion came out. I constantly finished raids, but ever since Infernal Dawn and this dramatic shift in raid philosophy if you missed the bus then too bad you are left behind.

    I am writing this as a warning to anyone wanting to play Rift to set your expectations extremely low. Threads have begun popping up even amung the most loyal on the forums questioning why in the fuck has Trion not nerfed tier 2 content. At some point Trion needs to pull a page from Blizzards book and publically publish the raid achievements so that players and fan site can compile just how many people have finished tier 1, 2, and 3 content.

    Example: http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...-question.html

    Judging by what I have seen from my massive amount of time wasted in Rift it is pretty clear a large section of this game population has been sitting on tier 1 content and maybe some mini bosses, but no real progression outside of some test guilds. EU is basically dead, the game has devolved into pointless raiding with no real progression, and other parts of the game have turned into ways to milk the playerbase to buy crap from the cash shop...budgie, unicorn, greenscale troves as the best examples.

    At this point I am uninstalling Rift for the same reasons that I uninstalled WoW. After what seemed like a peek the devs simply stopped caring and just assumed that the next expansion would sell more copies and that there would be a never ending rise in population. The devs have become so caught up in the elitism that they do not realize that asking for 520 hit in 400 hit tier 1 raids is simply wrong. I could see 420 hit to guarantee you do not have anyone miss but monkey see monkey do right now in Rift and I am done hoping Daglar will lead and take this game back to its former glory.

    TLDR: In Rift HIT = Gearscore and the game strongly resembles WoW pre Lich King raid in WotLK community and elitism.
    My guild runs T1 and is getting in to T2. I told you once we are recruiting constantly. I offered to let you join once before as well. Hit me up in game sometime.

    Also, you hope Daglar will do something about it? How can devs make the players do anything? Those people requiring 520 Hit are people that are running T2 or T3 but still want the currencies. They do not want to mess around explaining fights or worrying about not enough DPS/Heals. They wanna get in and get out. There are other people out there running them and PuGing. When we run we sometimes fill a spot or 2 with PuGs. We fill up really really fast though. I'll ask for 1-2 people in chat and get about 20 responses in 5 seconds. I let them know it's progression/we may not get very far ahead of time and many are ok. I have spoken to other guild/raid leaders that we used to run joint runs with and they are now in the same position. They used to have about 10 people, like us, and now have 18ish so PuG the last couple spots. Those runs are out there, they just fill up really quick. You can find a guild though. Look for mine. If I am not on look for Amynara or Rrever and let them know Lath sent you, you'll get an invite, I guarantee it.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Also, you hope Daglar will do something about it? How can devs make the players do anything? Those people requiring 520 Hit are people that are running T2 or T3 but still want the currencies.
    You use the term "these people" like it is a small minority. Do me a favor and /join CrossEvents@Faeblight and do a count. The simple fact is the raid content is simply not designed for a majority of the playerbase, but is basically the end game for Rift.

    Do not give me this bullshit that housing, artifacts, or chronicles are alternate end game for Rift because you do not know what you are talking about. The game is gear focused and that gear comes from 1. Cash Shop or 2. End game raiding. The problem is how do you raid in Rift when you are expected as a fresh 60 to hae 520 hit and rapid assault achievements JUST TO PUG.

    I am not saying nerf. I am saying beat it to death with a nerf bat or give the players an alternate method to get the currency through experts that does not take 7+ weeks to get one piece. I requested that Trion give access to the achievements of everyone playing the game to prove my point. I promise you I will be proven correct.

    It started in Vanilla with barely any of the playerbase seeing Maelforge in ID and now barely any of the playerbase is seeing Tier 2 content in a 3 tier expansion. WoW has maintained 7 million people with a subscription while Rift has continued to see heavy population loss for a damn fucking good reason. Daglar is perfectly fine with Rift being a niche game that has no real impact on the MMO industry. When Hartsman led the game you could literally see other MMO's being pushed to add new features and promising patches quicker, but now that Daglar has decided to appeal to a small niche of players EU has all but died and NA is losing new players because once people hit 60 and see the grind to experience content they leave.

    You release content at a fast pace, but barely any of the people playing the game actually see this content because IT IS INCREDIBLY GATED. Make the new content hard as crap for all I care so that people feel special, but after you add in Torvan, Lycini, Eternal Survivor, and the other 7 reps you need to grind plus sourcestones to get BIS essences, plus ENDLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS grinds of T1 raids for +65 hit weapons.

    I should not have to give up real life to experience a game. Sorry you can deny this but with Daglars leadership the game has become niche and will decline as people leave for other mmo's as they have continued to do since TOR. They have masked the population loss with cross shard EVERRYTHING, but at the next zone event count how many people from other shards are there compared to how many people from your own shard used to be there. When you have HARDCORE fanboys like me /uninstalling you have a serious problem in dev leadership at your game.
    Last edited by Puremallace; 2014-05-28 at 01:20 PM.
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  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire alkyd's Avatar
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    I have just started playing Rift, and I enjoy it. After reading your post, I am even intrigued more. What I understand from your posts Rift now is like WoW from 2004 to 2008 when you actually had to raid from lower tier to higher.

    If you want to jump straignt into latest raid tier, then you should try WoW if you havn't tried it already. If you had, then it explains why you complain about the difficulty of raiding end-game/obtaining gear.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by alkyd View Post
    I have just started playing Rift, and I enjoy it. After reading your post, I am even intrigued more. What I understand from your posts Rift now is like WoW from 2004 to 2008 when you actually had to raid from lower tier to higher.

    If you want to jump straignt into latest raid tier, then you should try WoW if you havn't tried it already. If you had, then it explains why you complain about the difficulty of raiding end-game/obtaining gear.
    It is not like they are keeping it hard because of the challenge. A single piece of tier 2 gear cost about $100 on the shop and Tier 1 is about $80 (these numbers might be off) but you are starting to see people with full tier 2 gear and no achievements lol

    Yes I do agree this is basically pre WOTLK raiding with rep requirements and insanely hard raids with caps set to gate the content in such a way as to artificially extend the content through a mix of gear and RNG dps checks/mechanics.
    Last edited by Puremallace; 2014-05-28 at 04:16 PM.
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  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire alkyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    It is not like they are keeping it hard because of the challenge. A single piece of tier 2 gear cost about $100 on the shop and Tier 1 is about $80 (these numbers might be off) but you are starting to see people with full tier 2 gear and no achievements lol

    Yes I do agree this is basically pre WOTLK raiding with rep requirements and insanely hard raids with caps set to gate the content in such a way as to artificially extend the content through a mix of gear and RNG dps checks/mechanics.
    True. The F2P system has kind of ruined the gameplay for players who don't want to spend real money for gear. If not for f2p model, there would've been lots of potential to bring many WoW vanilla nostalgic players to RIFT.

  12. #12
    You do realize you are totally contradicting yourself right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    You use the term "these people" like it is a small minority.
    Yes I do, and you say the same thing, right here:


    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    It started in Vanilla with barely any of the playerbase seeing Maelforge in ID and now barely any of the playerbase is seeing Tier 2 content in a 3 tier expansion.
    Those PuGing raids are NOT the majority of the playerbase. The majority either does not raid or raids with their guild and does not PuG.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2014-05-28 at 11:38 PM.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by alkyd View Post
    True. The F2P system has kind of ruined the gameplay for players who don't want to spend real money for gear. If not for f2p model, there would've been lots of potential to bring many WoW vanilla nostalgic players to RIFT.
    No, it didn't. While pugging is harder, yes, you can always do what you used to have to do, join a guild.

    This same type of behavior existed, and still exists, in WoW.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It really has nothing to do with F2P. It's not like Trion stopped putting out raid content or that Hit is obtained via cash shop. There is no correlation between F2P and the increasing difficulty of the raid content.

    Rift has always been highly tiered. The difference is post-ID, the tier thresholds grew higher with fewer able to meet them aside from the very top raiders.

    Most people just can't do this content- I don't mean unable to learn/play the game. I mean they literally can not do it because they don't have the gear necessary to unlock it. The only way to get that gear is through a full progression of the older raids.
    It's the fault of F2P when content is gated via a combination of difficulty and cash shop.

    And so it is such in the case of Rift.
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  15. #15
    Pandaren Monk Slipmat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    It's the fault of F2P when content is gated via a combination of difficulty and cash shop.
    Seriously, get a clue? you do NOT have to pay a single cent to raid in Rift, nothing/yada/zero/zilch

    If people don't want to put in the effort needed to clear current Raid content in Rift, plenty of other big games out there who will throw gear at you just for logging on, please, stay with them, thank you.
    Last edited by Slipmat; 2014-05-29 at 06:18 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    It's the fault of F2P when content is gated via a combination of difficulty and cash shop.

    And so it is such in the case of Rift.

    There is no gating behind a cash shop at all. None. You can participate in any and all of the games content without spending a dime.
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  17. #17
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    haha this is funny, a thread left a bunch of guys whine how easy it is to get gear in WoW, a thread right some other guys whine how hard it is to get gear in Rift
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    It's the fault of F2P when content is gated via a combination of difficulty and cash shop.

    And so it is such in the case of Rift.
    You don't have to pay to get that gear. That means it isn't a gating mechanism. That's not the right term and it's factually incorrect.

    Secondly, the issue was present before Rift went F2P. It all started with ID.

    The problem is simply the raid content in Rift being highly tiered progressively erodes the potential pool of players for newer tiers. In theory the highly structured raid tiers are perfectly fine, but in practice Rift isn't popular enough to support that type of game design.

    Lack of popularity has been the systemic "problem" of Rift. The game has historically and objectively been competently made and well accomplished. However, Rift is overall "ho-hum" and never attracted and kept a large enough player base to drive mechanisms rooted in a style of MMO design distinctly 2005-07.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2014-05-29 at 01:17 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    There is no gating behind a cash shop at all. None. You can participate in any and all of the games content without spending a dime.
    Yeahhhhhhhhhh true, but you sure as hell can participate in that raid faster if you buy the gear in the shop. It has been 279 days since the last raids nerfed and the best Trion comes up with today is cutting trash mob health in half on Tier 2 when everyone is expecting a 3.0 announcement any day now and the build up to that.

    Like most people get that people quit/take a break from WoW because they take forever to release anything new right? Yeah a small minority of hardcore people quit because of nerfed content, but who seriously thinks there is some mass exodus of players? Most of the complaints were "jesus h christ it has been 8 months since you released anything new Blizzard!".

    Most of you advocating for no nerfs must have guilds where noone quits or does not make it to raids and you always have 600 hit players sitting on the bench ready to go.

    Do the math by this idiotic logic in this game right now:
    Tier 1 requires 520 when it really requires 400 to play it
    Tier 2 requires 620 hit when realistically it requires 500
    Tier 3 requires 720 hit when realistically requires 600

    You are required to have the maxed out gear from the previous tier to even join a PUG for the previous tiers content. How people defend such a moronic system and do not see the obvious problems this will lead to is beyond me? All of this started when Hartsman left and Daglar took over the direction of the game. His view that people who do not grind till there eyes bleed deserve nothing is driving people away from the game.

    Go ahead and argue the merits of nerfing vs cash shop like I care, but the sheer fact is the game is F2P, we are down from 120 servers to 10ish, EU is on life support, and people I know are leaving everyday because of the massive amount of elitism and general asshole attitude in this game right now. This mandate that devs have to ignore most of your playerbase in favor of a small minority of players (who are also getting pissed) is idiotic at best.

    I did not believe the f2p and cash shop association people made in a gear based game, but watching what has happened since F2P I am a solid believer now. It is like working with a different developer now obsessed with milking the playerbase for as long as humanly possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    There is no gating behind a cash shop at all. None. You can participate in any and all of the games content without spending a dime.
    Whatever you are smoking I want some and I want lots of it. Are you sure you are playing Rift?
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Yeahhhhhhhhhh true, but you sure as hell can participate in that raid faster if you buy the gear in the shop. It has been 279 days since the last raids nerfed and the best Trion comes up with today is cutting trash mob health in half on Tier 2 when everyone is expecting a 3.0 announcement any day now and the build up to that.

    Like most people get that people quit/take a break from WoW because they take forever to release anything new right? Yeah a small minority of hardcore people quit because of nerfed content, but who seriously thinks there is some mass exodus of players? Most of the complaints were "jesus h christ it has been 8 months since you released anything new Blizzard!".

    Most of you advocating for no nerfs must have guilds where noone quits or does not make it to raids and you always have 600 hit players sitting on the bench ready to go.

    Do the math by this idiotic logic in this game right now:
    Tier 1 requires 520 when it really requires 400 to play it
    Tier 2 requires 620 hit when realistically it requires 500
    Tier 3 requires 720 hit when realistically requires 600

    You are required to have the maxed out gear from the previous tier to even join a PUG for the previous tiers content. How people defend such a moronic system and do not see the obvious problems this will lead to is beyond me? All of this started when Hartsman left and Daglar took over the direction of the game. His view that people who do not grind till there eyes bleed deserve nothing is driving people away from the game.

    Go ahead and argue the merits of nerfing vs cash shop like I care, but the sheer fact is the game is F2P, we are down from 120 servers to 10ish, EU is on life support, and people I know are leaving everyday because of the massive amount of elitism and general asshole attitude in this game right now. This mandate that devs have to ignore most of your playerbase in favor of a small minority of players (who are also getting pissed) is idiotic at best.

    I did not believe the f2p and cash shop association people made in a gear based game, but watching what has happened since F2P I am a solid believer now. It is like working with a different developer now obsessed with milking the playerbase for as long as humanly possible.



    Whatever you are smoking I want some and I want lots of it. Are you sure you are playing Rift?
    I love how you respond to this statement but totally ignore my offer for you to join my guild and get in to the content you claim it is impossible to get in to. I love how you ignore where I point out how you contradicted yourself. You try to claim that people require 520 Hit to run something that only requires 400.

    I agree with you, those people that are clearing and farming T2 with their guilds and working on T3 that still want stuff from T1 put these requirements in place. I also understand where they are coming from, they want a quick, no BS, run. Do I agree with it and is it something I would do? Not at all. However, they are free to play the game how they want. Trion should not attempt to limit it. What do you want them to do? Place something like to opposite of mentoring that drops your gear to 420 Hit gear when you enter a T1 raid? Sure, let's just make the raid harder.

    What am I smoking? Well, occasionally I do smoke some pot, but that has nothing to do with the fact that you can run everything for free. By things you have said you actually implied as much. If you buy the gear, but do not have the achievement, will they let you in those raids? No. So you must earn the gear anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipmat View Post
    plenty of other big games out there who will throw gear at you just for logging on, please, stay with them, thank you.
    This is too true. A RL friend of mine really wanted me to play WoW with him again. He had reactivated his account and bought me Pandaland and a month of time. How could I refuse? In one week, I leveled from 85 to 90, went to Timeless Isle and ran around opening a bunch of one-time chests and have already run the LFRs that I can with my iLvl. Doing a few more quests and a few more runs will get me ready for the latest raid. Another guy I used to play with has been advising me as he wants me in his raids. We estimate another week, maybe 2 and I'll be ready for the current tier. Two, maybe 3, weeks to chew through all the content? Sorry, I want something that lasts longer. Once I chew through it all, in the one month my friend payed for I will tell him, "Sorry, I'm not paying for this. I've already done everything there is to do. I am going back to Rift where I can do everything for free and not run out of content in 1 month."(I hope he doesn't read this, he does occasionally lurk here)
    Last edited by Lathais; 2014-05-29 at 03:18 PM.
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