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  1. #1
    Blademaster Raito09's Avatar
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    What is there to do when you reach lvl 80?

    I'll clear up a couple of things first off. After playing for 5+ years and experiencing first-hand the failure the world now knows as the Cataclysm expansion, I "retired" from WoW. I have seen a trend from the Guild Wars community in general where WoW players are shunned for a number of reasons. I, however, came into the game with an open mind to all of the innovation that Arena Net put into the game, and I would like fellow players and posters to regard my opinions with an equally open mind as this post may contain negative views on some aspects of the game. This post will contain my heart laid bare in honesty, no joking, no sarcasm and nothing of all that bs on my part.

    First off, the good.

    The graphics. After 5+ years of WoW, seeing the world of Tyria in shiny 1080p with my GTX 680 (which I bought solely to play GW2, as I don't play any other game besides LoL) was very refreshing.

    The Art Style. I loved every design, from characters to environments to cities and architecture. I am the type of guy that you will never see with an ugly character. My character must always be either handsome or badass. EVERY single race in GW2 qualifies for either one. I'm a huge fan of female Norn supermodels, badass Charr, and handsome Humans. Even the Asura and Sylvari, though non-orthodox, still may qualify as either one of my conditions. The UI is clean and responsive, and the map is beautiful.

    The Lore. It is truly amazing how the creators of the game have visualized the world into a truly marvelous environment with interesting and memorable characters. I totally bought Edge of Destiny and Ghosts of Ascalon and the Collector's Edition of the game JUST so I could have the 10-Inch Rytlock figurine that I now proudly display in my room. And I did it just because I loved Rytlock in Destiny's Edge. And then you interact with Logan in the Human starting area; truly amazing. The world of Tyria has an amazing history, creatures, languages and races. Only ones out of place are the plants that came out of the tree 20-something years ago. And they don't even have sex or babies but their females have boobs so there ya have it. Aside from that, no complains.

    The Combat Style. I liked the idea of Weapon-Determined skills and the fact that 10 keybinds are enough in most professions. I liked the action-oriented combat with dodging and positioning. Really keeps you on your toes to avoid fatal damage.

    The bad. =(

    The Music. The soundtrack of GW2 is simply amazing, breathtaking and really captures the fantasy of Tyria. But what it boasts in quality, it lacks in quantity. I've completed 4 different zones so far and I've listened to the same 5-6 tracks. It gets dull after a while (a couple of days), and then I just opened iTunes while playing, something that I almost never did in WoW.

    The Planning. To be fair, in comparison with some releases of other gaming companies, ArenaNet handled the user influx quite well, and the three day headstart was a great idea that immensely helped them with server stability during the early phases of the release. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel the game was missing at least 1 more month of development time. It lacks such simple things such as dueling for example. Why can't I have the option to duel my friend, just for the lulz? Also, party issues. Party members end up in different overflows. Button to join the same server is bugged. Party members don't appear on the mini map. Bugs in the Personal Story. Issues with the Trading Post. It really just makes me feel that they could have solved all these very simple yet annoying issues if they could have but released the game a couple of weeks later. They waited 5 years. What's another 5 weeks?

    The Endgame. This is basically what killed me. There is no endgame. Suppose I have one lvl 80 character with 100% map completion. What do I do then? If you disregard the fact you can have a full trait build and you can visit all areas of the map, what is the benefit of being 80? Simple answer: no benefit. For the PvP, you can participate from level 2 if you want, and you will have the same gear and skills as everyone else. For WvWvW you will have lvl 80 stats but your gear will be the one you entered with, but WvWvW was never meant to be balanced, so who cares? You can do explorable modes before 80, so being 80 is not in any way an advantage. There is no incentive to play and be better. No incentive to go do anything because what gives, the gear is the exact same, it just looks different.

    So there you have it. This is the problem I'm starting to see in the game right now. I'm not even half way to 80 yet, and I love the leveling experience through exploring... but I know I will only love it once, and that I won't ever have more than one lvl 80.

    If a newbie player asked me what was there at lvl 80 in Wrath of the Lich King I would have told him: "Oh wow listen there's so much you can do man! You can either go PvP or PvE or a little bit of both. In any case you can do Battlegrounds, get honor and complete your PvP set. Get a good arena partner and achieve a high rating. You can do dungeons and get nice pve gear so you can then move on to Raiding. You can farm reputations to get cool pets, items and titles. You can do Achievements for many types of rewards. If you get a good guild you can do Heroic Raids for the best loots. You can level your professions and make some money, start saving up for that 16k Bike! Etc. etc. and so on.
    The problem with Cataclysm was very simple. Blizzard revamped the lvl 1-60 zones but left too little content in the endgame. That is the reason why Cataclysm sucked as hard as it did. You reach 80 then what? You needed a VERY good guild to do real progression, unlike WotLK. PvE: No good guild = you're trash. PvP: No good guild = you're trash. And what if you're casual and can't invest time for a guild because you have University AND a job? Then you're definitely trash. There was no content for casual players which are the ones that make up the MAJORITY of any MMO. It's just like a bell curve: the ones that suck the most are very few. The ones that are average, or casual, are the ones that make up most of the playerbase, and the ones that are elite are also very few. Blizzard's mistake was making Cataclysm's content aimed at the very low (people that have never reached max level before or were leveling alts) and at the very high (hardcore players). These two groups will ALWAYS be minorities in any game and even in many situations in life, such as the average student grades in a class or the average IQ of a given population. It's just the way the world works.

    And I see basically the same problem in Guild Wars 2. The Leveling experience is awesome. There's no denying it. But when I reach lvl 80 what do I do? What if I've never liked PvP in MMO's? What if I don't want "different"-looking gear? Where is my incentive to play if all gear will have theh same stats? I will log in, click on my character and enter the world. The map is already 100% complete. What. Do. I. Do.? Please, am I wrong? Someone please tell me I'm just wrong and there's plenty of things to do out there. And don't even start with Dynamic Events. Every zone has a 1 or 2 different dynamic events per Renown Heart. It's not like you can't memorize them once you've done the content once. So what exactly is there to do? What is the endgame? I really really really want to like and love this game because I don't want to go back to WoW. But I just don't see it, I simply can't see it. Please help me see it.

    tl;dr: just gtfo if you're not gonna read the whole thing, you will simply not understand my position and just post irrelevant bs.
    Last edited by Raito09; 2012-09-05 at 04:51 AM.
    Season II Platinum Ranked Player

  2. #2
    Misconception that all 80 gear is standardized

  3. #3
    "Oh wow listen there's so much you can do man! You can either go PvP or PvE or a little bit of both. In any case you can do Battlegrounds, get honor and complete your PvP set. Get a good arena partner and achieve a high rating. You can do dungeons and get nice pve gear so you can then move on to Raiding. You can farm reputations to get cool pets, items and titles. You can do Achievements for many types of rewards. If you get a good guild you can do Heroic Raids for the best loots. You can level your professions and make some money, start saving up for that 16k Bike!"
    A lot of these things exist in GW2. PvP, for example, you mentioned it as not being a good feature because you can do it from level 1, but then say it is a good feature in WoW even though it's the same thing. Battlegrounds never change, Warsong gulch is the same at level 10 as 85. Only difference is GW2 is balanced better because of equalization of gear. There are plenty of achievements to do, and plenty of exploration. I think you are short-changing those things. There is a lot of stuff to do and see. There are tons of legendary items you can craft for that cost oodles of mats and time, just like you mentioned in WoW.

    The game isn't a WoW style rush to the end so you can finally start playing. You are expected to enjoy the journey. You don't rush to the end of Final Fantasy 7 and then say "where's the end game?" This game, to me sits, somewhere between the old school RPGs and Modern MMOs.

    Also, this is the first iteration of it. You are comparing 10 years of WoW to Vanilla GW2. Think of how much WoW has added on over time. GW2 will get there. Remember how little there was to do in Vanilla WoW?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Raito09 View Post
    I'll clear up a couple of things first off. After playing for 5+ years and experiencing first-hand the failure the world now knows as the Cataclysm expansion, I "retired" from WoW. I have seen a trend from the Guild Wars community in general where WoW players are shunned for a number of reasons. I, however, came into the game with an open mind to all of the innovation that Arena Net put into the game, and I would like fellow players and posters to regard my opinions with an equally open mind as this post may contain negative views on some aspects of the game. This post will contain my heart laid bare in honesty, no joking, no sarcasm and nothing of all that bs on my part.

    First off, the good.

    The graphics. After 5+ years of WoW, seeing the world of Tyria in shiny 1080p with my GTX 680 (which I bought solely to play GW2, as I don't play any other game besides LoL) was very refreshing.

    The Art Style. I loved every design, from characters to environments to cities and architecture. I am the type of guy that you will never see with an ugly character. My character must always be either handsome or badass. EVERY single race in GW2 qualifies for either one. I'm a huge fan of female Norn supermodels, badass Charr, and handsome Humans. Even the Asura and Sylvari, though non-orthodox, still may qualify as either one of my conditions. The UI is clean and responsive, and the map is beautiful.

    The Lore. It is truly amazing how the creators of the game have visualized the world into a truly marvelous environment with interesting and memorable characters. I totally bought Edge of Destiny and Ghosts of Ascalon and the Collector's Edition of the game JUST so I could have the 10-Inch Rytlock figurine that I now proudly display in my room. And I did it just because I loved Rytlock in Destiny's Edge. And then you interact with Logan in the Human starting area; truly amazing. The world of Tyria has an amazing history, creatures, languages and races. Only ones out of place are the plants that came out of the tree 20-something years ago. And they don't even have sex or babies but their females have boobs so there ya have it. Aside from that, no complains.

    The Combat Style. I liked the idea of Weapon-Determined skills and the fact that 10 keybinds are enough in most professions. I liked the action-oriented combat with dodging and positioning. Really keeps you on your toes to avoid fatal damage.

    The bad. =(

    The Music. The soundtrack of GW2 is simply amazing, breathtaking and really captures the fantasy of Tyria. But what it boasts in quality, it lacks in quantity. I've completed 4 different zones so far and I've listened to the same 5-6 tracks. It gets dull after a while (a couple of days), and then I just opened iTunes while playing, something that I almost never did in WoW.

    The Planning. To be fair, in comparison with some releases of other gaming companies, ArenaNet handled the user influx quite well, and the three day headstart was a great idea that immensely helped them with server stability during the early phases of the release. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel the game was missing at least 1 more month of development time. It lacks such simple things such as dueling for example. Why can't I have the option to duel my friend, just for the lulz? Also, party issues. Party members end up in different overflows. Button to join the same server is bugged. Party members don't appear on the mini map. Bugs in the Personal Story. Issues with the Trading Post. It really just makes me feel that they could have solved all these very simple yet annoying issues if they could have but released the game a couple of weeks later. They waited 5 years. What's another 5 weeks?

    The Endgame. This is basically what killed me. There is no endgame. Suppose I have one lvl 80 character with 100% map completion. What do I do then? If you disregard the fact you can have a full trait build and you can visit all areas of the map, what is the benefit of being 80? Simple answer: no benefit. For the PvP, you can participate from level 2 if you want, and you will have the same gear and skills as everyone else. For WvWvW you will have lvl 80 stats but your gear will be the one you entered with, but WvWvW was never meant to be balanced, so who cares? You can do explorable modes before 80, so being 80 is not in any way an advantage. There is no incentive to play and be better. No incentive to go do anything because what gives, the gear is the exact same, it just looks different.

    So there you have it. This is the problem I'm starting to see in the game right now. I'm not even half way to 80 yet, and I love the leveling experience through exploring... but I know I will only love it once, and that I won't ever have more than one lvl 80.

    If a newbie player asked me what was there at lvl 80 in Wrath of the Lich King I would have told him: "Oh wow listen there's so much you can do man! You can either go PvP or PvE or a little bit of both. In any case you can do Battlegrounds, get honor and complete your PvP set. Get a good arena partner and achieve a high rating. You can do dungeons and get nice pve gear so you can then move on to Raiding. You can farm reputations to get cool pets, items and titles. You can do Achievements for many types of rewards. If you get a good guild you can do Heroic Raids for the best loots. You can level your professions and make some money, start saving up for that 16k Bike! Etc. etc. and so on.
    The problem with Cataclysm was very simple. Blizzard revamped the lvl 1-60 zones but left too little content in the endgame. That is the reason why Cataclysm sucked as hard as it did. You reach 80 then what? You needed a VERY good guild to do real progression, unlike WotLK. PvE: No good guild = you're trash. PvP: No good guild = you're trash. And what if you're casual and can't invest time for a guild because you have University AND a job? Then you're definitely trash. There was no content for casual players which are the ones that make up the MAJORITY of any MMO. It's just like a bell curve: the ones that suck the most are very few. The ones that are average, or casual, are the ones that make up most of the playerbase, and the ones that are elite are also very few. Blizzard's mistake was making Cataclysm's content aimed at the very low (people that have never reached max level before or were leveling alts) and at the very high (hardcore players). These two groups will ALWAYS be minorities in any game and even in many situations in life, such as the average student grades in a class or the average IQ of a given population. It's just the way the world works.

    And I see basically the same problem in Guild Wars 2. The Leveling experience is awesome. There's no denying it. But when I reach lvl 80 what do I do? What if I've never liked PvP in MMO's? What if I don't want "different"-looking gear? Where is my incentive to play if all gear will have theh same stats? I will log in, click on my character and enter the world. The map is already 100% complete. What. Do. I. Do.? Please, am I wrong? Someone please tell me I'm just wrong and there's plenty of things to do out there. And don't even start with Dynamic Events. Every zone has a 1 or 2 different dynamic events per Renown Heart. It's not like you can't memorize them once you've done the content once. So what exactly is there to do? What is the endgame? I really really really want to like and love this game because I don't want to go back to WoW. But I just don't see it, I simply can't see it. Please help me see it.

    tl;dr: just gtfo if you're not gonna read the whole thing, you will simply not understand my position and just post irrelevant bs.
    You seem to enjoy the journey to level 80. Continue to enjoy that journey and worry about what to do @ lvl 80 when you reach that point.

    From what i read (not 80 myself), There are the Orr zones which are packed with Dynamic Events, you can also do dungeons (explorable mode) to collect dungeons sets. There are also legendaries which take a lot of time to grind.

    As a poster above said, there will be different kinds of gear, I'm planning to have at least 2 types of gear sets @ lvl 80, a precision/crit damage focused gear and a toughness/vitality gear for explo dung.

  5. #5
    Tbh I dont know whats different at lvl 80 except going for legendary weaps, on the other hand this is the first game where you dont need to rush to get there because the game is fun anyway. In spvp you are already lvl 80 and can take part in competitive play and thats great for me. Then leveling on the side is fun in wvwvw but also in pve environment but Im only lvl 11 and I feel no rush at all and dont care if it takes a year to hit max lvl =)
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Brocksley View Post
    Remember how little there was to do in Vanilla WoW?
    I don't remember this.

    Vanilla WoW always had a million things to do for me.


    Dungeons took alot of planning and effort to complete.
    There was vast World to explore that took a long time because of no flying mounts.
    World PvP was immense fun and killed MANY hours.
    Gold farm and crafting items took AGES.
    Raids took months and months to finish, if ever.


    Enlighten me how you had little to do in Vanilla WoW.


    Oh, thats right, you never played it and think Vanilla WoW is like it is now.

    Amiright?

    Don't be a jerk. -Edge
    Last edited by Edge-; 2012-09-05 at 05:44 AM.

  7. #7
    I agree with the OP on pritty much everything he said.

    And no don't even bother saying "Yeah but u can pvp in wow at lvl 10!" It is 100% different. At max level PvP introduces gear sets, arena, rankings, and legit competition. In GW2 You can do "Competitive" tournaments at lvl 1 and be on the exact equal playstyle as a lvl 80. There is NO incentive to do anything in GW2 because it doesn't lead to anything. "oh you can craft amazing items at lvl 80 though!"... Why? for what purpose? to go do raids? there are none. To go do explore dungeons? they can be done in grays, they simply rely upon you avoiding damage. To go do zone events? for what purpose? they dont reward anything but money you can't spend on anything besides crafting mats or items.

    I understand the whole "The journey is the endgame" and thats cool and all... for the first month until you finish the journey. So essentially GW2 isn't really an MMO but more or less an Elder Scrolls Online, if you get what im saying. Which I also believe is PARTLY the reasoning behind a no sub fee game. And i'll honestly tell you, if GW2 had a sub fee, it wouldn't have more then 50,000 subs after the first month. But its good for what you pay for, a Fantasy RPG with Online players.... just not an MMO-experience.

    Also, there was more to do in vanilla wow PRE MC then there currently is in GW2, and i'm not just praising WoW, its blatant fact.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
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    I'm 80 now and feel like things have come to a halt as well. The journey there was a blast, but I'm not quite sure what else to do outside of PvP (loving it atm on my alt thief). To be honest, I'm kind of tired of the whole "Risen" thing. Practically everything to kill is an undead of a different species, and it's tiresome to slaughter the same stuff over and over.

    ^^ Outside of that, I'm still loving the other aspects of the game (anything besides being 80). I'll probably work on getting different gear and such for my necromancer when my other friends hit 80.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Raito09 View Post
    tl;dr: just gtfo if you're not gonna read the whole thing, you will simply not understand my position and just post irrelevant bs.
    TL;DR: What can you do at lvl80 that you can't do before lvl80? What's the incentive to keep playing?

    I read the entire thing, and believe that more than explains your position. There's nothing else to respond to but that, unless you want people to nitpick your personal opinion.

  10. #10
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Well all I can say is: At least you didn't waste $15/month and got WAY more entertainment hours than you would have gotten from your typical console game.

    Plus it gets free updates, unlike DLC.

    I'm 56 atm and still a bit scared about the end-game.

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  11. #11
    Well spvp tournaments isnt faceroll, even if people instantly get the max lvl and gear you can easily separate the less skilled from the skilled. And if you aren't skilled at your class, cant manage 1v1 fights well or work on tacts with your group your tournaments most likely wont be won. Sure, there's no tournaments that matter in place right now but there will be and that's where the epic skill fights will take place and if anyone think you can just enter game first time, get to heart of the mist and manage to get in a team and win them all, well then you probably havent tried tournaments yet =)
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by intelchipset View Post
    I don't remember this.

    Vanilla WoW always had a million things to do for me.


    Dungeons took alot of planning and effort to complete.
    There was vast World to explore that took a long time because of no flying mounts.
    World PvP was immense fun and killed MANY hours.
    Gold farm and crafting items took AGES.
    Raids took months and months to finish, if ever.


    Enlighten me how you had little to do in Vanilla WoW.


    Oh, thats right, you never played it and think Vanilla WoW is like it is now.

    Amiright?
    I know you are trying very hard to be a jerk, but you don't have to be that way. It's possible to be nice on the internet.

    Comparatively speaking, vanilla wow has very little to do compared with everything it is now through MoP. The same way, GW2 doesn't have a lot to do now, but it will after years of expansions.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by intelchipset View Post
    I don't remember this.

    Vanilla WoW always had a million things to do for me.


    Dungeons took alot of planning and effort to complete.
    There was vast World to explore that took a long time because of no flying mounts.
    World PvP was immense fun and killed MANY hours.
    Gold farm and crafting items took AGES.
    Raids took months and months to finish, if ever.


    Enlighten me how you had little to do in Vanilla WoW.


    Oh, thats right, you never played it and think Vanilla WoW is like it is now.

    Amiright?
    Did you play it? Because you're exaggerating just a ... lot.

  14. #14
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelchipset View Post
    I don't remember this.

    Vanilla WoW always had a million things to do for me.


    Dungeons took alot of planning and effort to complete.
    There was vast World to explore that took a long time because of no flying mounts.
    World PvP was immense fun and killed MANY hours.
    Gold farm and crafting items took AGES.
    Raids took months and months to finish, if ever.


    Enlighten me how you had little to do in Vanilla WoW.


    Oh, thats right, you never played it and think Vanilla WoW is like it is now.

    Amiright?
    Been playing since about a month after launch, and you're pretty wrong.

    Watch this as a reminder:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2saAgaJ6p54

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Brocksley View Post
    I know you are trying very hard to be a jerk, but you don't have to be that way. It's possible to be nice on the internet.

    Comparatively speaking, vanilla wow has very little to do compared with everything it is now through MoP. The same way, GW2 doesn't have a lot to do now, but it will after years of expansions.
    Do people have the patience to wait for years? These are the same arguments people started using for SWTOR when users got to max level and had nothing to do. Sure, it's unfair to compare WoW after 4 expansions against a game that is fresh out of the box, but that's something the devs know when they get into this business -- they will be competing against whatever is out there, right now, and they will be measured up to it. That's not up to the users, because most users really couldn't care less about waiting years for content in GW2 when they can play content in a more established MMO right now (WoW for example). Same thing happened with TOR.
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  16. #16
    They're quite different games, but basically the focus of wow is very little content while leveling, race to max level asap, then there is more pve content and slightly more pvp at max level.

    GW2 is more of a journey and not a destination, with much more content along the way, not a race to max level, more of a focus on pvp at all levels (including wpvp in a way that wow doesn't even have), and less of a focus on pve content at max level. There are also dailies and monthlies to do at max level, along with professions, there is gear progression, etc. If that seems like nothing to do, I would urge you to take a step back and think about how exciting DS has been running the same 8 bosses every week on different alts endlessly for the last 10 months. About 1 month into it I wanted to bash my head into a wall. Also pvp-wise at max level there is far far more content at all levels including max level in GW2 (wvw makes TB look like a children's game tbh). Lastly, this is 1.0 of the game and there will be more content coming.

  17. #17
    Pit Lord
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    im going to pvp my ass off in WvWvW, because thats what appeals to me.

    i believe theyve been saying from the start that there really is no end game, there is no gear treadmill and that if you dont like pvp then you may want to find a different game.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-05 at 05:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Do people have the patience to wait for years? These are the same arguments people started using for SWTOR when users got to max level and had nothing to do. Sure, it's unfair to compare WoW after 4 expansions against a game that is fresh out of the box, but that's something the devs know when they get into this business -- they will be competing against whatever is out there, right now, and they will be measured up to it. That's not up to the users, because most users really couldn't care less about waiting years for content in GW2 when they can play content in a more established MMO right now (WoW for example). Same thing happened with TOR.
    you absolutely can, as well as pay 15 bucks a month for 10 months doing the same 8 raid dungeon.

  18. #18
    Interesting to note that WoW players are looked down upon in GW2. I noticed a lot of that in SWToR as well. Funny to think that because I have played WoW for so long I am now a social leper both online and in the real world. :-)
    Feigning Death and watching you all die since 2005!

  19. #19
    Great post OP, thanks for sharing your opinion even if I disagree several points. One thing I wonder about though (this is the tech nut in me).. you say:
    After 5+ years of WoW, seeing the world of Tyria in shiny 1080p with my GTX 680 was very refreshing.
    I have to ask - what resolution were you running WoW in? Seeing as you only mentioned buying a graphics card and not a new monitor, surely you were already playing WoW at 1080p (ie, 1920x1080)? Certainly, higher resolution textures (actually, recent textures in WoW are just as high-res but don't have anything in the way of normal mapping, which makes a visual quality difference) can give the illusion of higher definition graphics, but 1920x1080 is always the same "definition" no matter what game you're playing. ><

    Or in other words, 1920x1080 in WoW is 1080p already. There's nothing new or shiny about playing GW2 in 1080p as well. If you meant the graphics are better in GW2, that's certain. But it's not because of the resolution. It just erks me when people think better graphics = better definition. It's almost as bad as the people who think "higher resolution" = "higher definition". >< (Frequently, higher resolution DOES mean higher definition if viewed on the same monitor, presuming the higher resolution is native, however all the time I see people resizing a low resolution video to 1920x1080 and calling it HD and it kills my life :P)
    Last edited by Janaa; 2012-09-05 at 05:59 AM.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dokilar View Post
    you absolutely can, as well as pay 15 bucks a month for 10 months doing the same 8 raid dungeon.
    Don't look at me, I haven't played WoW in more than a year because I don't like the game; but I'm not going to go around and say it doesn't have content. It does have, and taking 3-4months (and more if you're in a less serious guild) to clear a raid is more content than what GW2 offers. WvWvW will only be fun for so long -- believe me, I felt the same about TOR. "Oh, I'll just PvP! That's fun!" 2 months later it's like forcing myself to drink cold coffee.
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