"Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
~ Warlord Khan, Magicka
Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.
I'm quite bored at 80 as well. There isn't much to do if you're not interested in PvP as i find both WvWvW and the Arena thing way to zergy.
Instances are not worth doing due to the fact that loot is as random as random could ever get. Getting level 78 blue items in chests spawned after bosses that take 15 minutes to kill if not more due to being rediculously overtuned (either that, or GW2 really likes people to zerg). Aside from that, every instance has its own token which sucks seeing as you're forced to run the instance ~11 times (some cost 180 tokens while others 390) to get one piece of item.
Exotic gear from Karma is no fun due to having to do aprox. 128 events to get the karma points for one item.
Some people aren't going to enjoy being level 80, I've got to say.There's no denying it. But when I reach lvl 80 what do I do? What if I've never liked PvP in MMO's? What if I don't want "different"-looking gear? Where is my incentive to play if all gear will have theh same stats? I will log in, click on my character and enter the world. The map is already 100% complete. What. Do. I. Do.? Please, am I wrong? Someone please tell me I'm just wrong and there's plenty of things to do out there. And don't even start with Dynamic Events. Every zone has a 1 or 2 different dynamic events per Renown Heart. It's not like you can't memorize them once you've done the content once. So what exactly is there to do? What is the endgame? I really really really want to like and love this game because I don't want to go back to WoW. But I just don't see it, I simply can't see it. Please help me see it.
For me (note, these are the things I like, not necessarily all the things there are, I'm sure I'm missing a lot, I've not been 80 very long) the perks are
- Working towards new gear. Yes, this is going to be highly cosmetic. If you don't care how your character looks, have no interest in any legendaries, then this is going to prove unfulfilling for you. If you do want a legendary, the fact you're going to need 200 skill points for part of the item is certainly going to keep you going a while.
- Completion. If you're not a completionist and don't like achievements again, you're going to find this lacking. I love to complete zones, I want to complete the world, and I want all the achievements = a lot of hours of gameplay. On top of that if you're a completionist you're going to want to collect all the dyes, all the minis, all the THINGS!! If you've already completed this then yes, I agree, there is a lot less to do at endgame than if you haven't.
- Dungeons. Dungeons are hard, long, and the rewards are relatively low. The fun is in the doing. This is not a game that showers you with gear for simple tasks. I personally really love running a dungeon, I would love it even if there was no reward at all, because I enjoy the groupwork and the co-ordination and the process.
- Crafting. I find crafting fun. I've probably spent 10+ hours at level 80 now just messing around with crafting but I've also heard it listed as some peoples least favourite part of the game so I guess there's some disparity there as to how fun that is. Maybe I'm weird.
- Economy. If you like making money the TP is global and moves fast, for some people like me who were AH-whores on other games, this is a whole new challenge. I'm not even sure what I can do with my gold to be quite honest but I know I want to make it
- PvP. I haven't really spent much time in PvP so I can't really sell its strengths, you've said what if you don't like PvP anyway so I guess it doesn't matter.
For me, there seems to be a lot to do at 80 but I can definitely see that some people are not going to find much "endgame" in GW2. Don't forget there are 8 professions and 5 personal storylines so if you really don't enjoy much of the above there are still plenty of options. We also don't know what sort of schedule and content may be released in future expansions which is kinda critical knowledge in my opinion to really make a judgement call on the endgame.
Saying "what if I've already completed what I want to do and I don't like any of the rest of the stuff", does mean you may find 80 a bit boring. The endgame is there, but not everyone is going to like it unfortunately.
different strokes for different folks, some people gotta have those raids
How many copycat of this kind of thread we need to read? 5 per day?
Didn't we have this thread already?
I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.
If you give into your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.
Wait, I never understand the argument that "I don't care about cosmetic stuff so there is no end game" when most of the rewards in this game REVOLVES around cosmetics for bragging rights; all the exploring mode rewards, all the PvP rewards, all the legendaries, collecting the 400 different coloured dye, etc etc.
Your argument is like me saying "WoW has no endgame cuz I don't like raiding"; There IS endgame, it's just not the type YOU want. God forbids that games have different approach to things than WoW.
ALSO, you people seem to forget that WoW is a subscription model, meaning we're paying 15$ per month for the endgame, which barely has a new raid every ~4 months: thats right, you're paying an extra $60~ for a new raid; whereas GW2, we're paying ZERO for the endgame. This point is actually pretty important.
Since I have hit 80 I have spent about 10 hours in Orr doing dynamic events, I find them very compelling. I have also just been travelling the world by foot rather than use waypoints to experience the zones more. I love how zones are still relevant and active for you after you have passed through them for the first time.
My issue with WoWs endgame is that I wanted to spend it out in the beautifully designed zones not inside instanced areas. However, once all the quests were done they were dead with nothing to do in them.
this thread is split between two types, those that like to chase the carrot and those who don't.
People are saying what if I don't like pvp, and aren't interested in comestic changes, and can't be bothered doing 100% exploration, and won't do dungeons if the loot isn't better - why play this game then and ask what else is there to do?! go back to WoW or wherever because the progression end game stat grind is waiting there for you. You won't find it here.
What is there to do when you reach lvl 80?
Wait for MoP
Or maybe Borderlands 2
From what I have seen Rift is offering some very high quality raiding so I would recommend anyone looking to itch that scratch to head over there. MoP new raids look impressive too. GW2 is not trying to compete in this area though.
Saying it's not worth doing anything in GW2 because you are not preparing your character to raid is a pretty one dimensional way of looking at things. I find things worthwhile doing at level 80 so it's just going to be about the type of game you are looking to play.
I am personally very happy that if I become busy at work for a few months and can't play I can jump straight back in some time later and not be behind some sort of gear curve in pve and pvp. Gear curves in PvP especially I have always felt just ruins the experience (for me).
Even Vanilla, straight out of the box, no patches at all beyond initial release, lacked a lot of the content people seem to associate with Vanilla WoW without understanding that a lot of what I hear them talk about was added with patches. Well, like most MMOs at release, even Vanilla WoW really didn't have an end game. A lot of the content people like to name wasn't added until later.
Vanilla WoW for me was always, 'right out of the box, no patches or anything WoW' that meant no battlegrounds or anything. Once people start naming off all the content that wasn't there at release, I stop them and say, "No, that's pre-BC WoW" which tends to set people off because they don't see it like that. Either because they didn't play prior to the content being added or because they're the ones that just think of Vanilla WoW as anything prior to the release of BC.
Want to know what I remember about Vanilla WoW? Not being able to play - Queues, lines into the servers miles long. Classes with no viable specs or classes with only one with the others not just being useless, but ostracized entirely from ever entering what little end game there actually was. Itemization that made no bloody sense given the direction of what little end game there was. Everquest mechanics and development mindsets that were never a good thing.
Raids and dungeons, pvp, and the things people like to rant and rave about when they talk about Vanilla WoW weren't even present. World PvP was aimless and pointless with no supporting systems of note.
I still play WoW, and I actually have quite enjoyed my years with the game but dear whatever take off the rose colored glasses. Instead I see people complain about the overflow, and how it's so terrible, and flawed.. and how they'd prefer the WoW system. You know. The WoW system where you can't even play while you wait in line, and where the queues, at some points, were more than an hour long. Bloody brilliant that system. Better drop that horrible overflow idea stat.
Guild Wars 2 has.. end game.. if you really want to call what any MMO has end game. It has what was promised. If you don't like what they've been very clear about from the start.. then why did you even buy the game? The things you find in the top levels of GW2 aren't surprising because Arena.net talked about those things repeatedly. What you were buying was explained up front. I don't don't understand people that buy a thing, knowing full well what it is supposed to be, and then complaining that it's not something else entirely. It's like the people I see buy old dice roll based PC RPGs and then complain that they don't have twitch mechanics like an FPS. It doesn't make sense.
I knew what I was buying up front, and after playing I've found that what I bought was exactly what I paid for - more importantly, what I wanted. It's not perfect, but it's what was promised. For all the notes that it has no end game, I've found it has more content to go through when you hit 80 than most MMOs I see released. Hardly any ship with anything more than very little end game, if they have any at all. GW2 has tons of content to run through once you've hit 80 and of various types ranging from pve and pvp to crafting and discovering hidden recipes. Figuring out how to unlock hidden events, some of them zone wide, with multiple triggers and requirements scattered throughout the zone.
You have so much, and if the things available don't interest you.. then I'm sorry. Maybe you just bought the wrong game. That's possible. I'm not going to convince you that you should like what's there, but there is plenty there. You just don't seem interested in it. I'm enjoying it. I won't pretend you should enjoy it just like I do. Do me a favor, in return, and don't pretend that, and I quote,
Why is there no benefit to being 80 in PvP? Because there shouldn't be. It's sort of.. exactly like GW1 in that sense. Again, why did you buy the game if this isn't something you like? It wasn't hidden. It was screamed at the top of Arena.net's lung capacity. It's just as intended in 2 as it was in 1."There is no end game."
Your note on dungeons and explorable modes makes no sense, you act like the eight dungeons that exist don't have 32 variables that level you down to their challenge level. You act like there aren't level 80 dungeons.
You act like your rewards being, in essence, cosmetic, is a bad thing, and even like it's surprising as if this hasn't been the plan all along. As if this isn't straight out of GW1 with continued assurances that it would remain exactly the same because the players didn't want to always be going for the next stat boost.
You have an entire zone dedicated to level 80 characters if PvE is your thing.
You have WvW and sPvP and Tournament modes for PvP.
You act like there's no incentive to play or be better, and yet GW2 sets up exactly that. Being better. You can be better. You can't be out geared or out leveled in PvP, for example, the only thing that will save you is.. you. Your ability. That's the ultimate incentive to play better.
Things to explore, discover, find of all sorts from simple locations that grant you experience to clues to recipes and more.
If you don't understand the value of going out and concentrating on getting cosmetic things then you ignores the players in WoW that went out of their way just to get gear just for wearing, not for stats, even before the Transmog functionality was added in. You'd think the CoH and CoV people were crazy for spending hours in the character creator and more time just doing content to get a new option to customize their Hero/Villain with. You wouldn't understand the people in GW1 that went out of their way to farm ectos and obsidian and other rarities just to get that new set of armor, or even just a single piece, even though its stats were no better than anything else.
Yet CoH was a great success story for years, and it's sad it's going away after all this time. GW1 has sold over seven million units at this point, and even with GW2 out there are oddly enough still people playing GW1 unlocking HoM stuff for GW2 that is again nothing more than cosmetic stuff.
Yet if you don't understand these things, and you bought a game that supports these systems.. there is no wrong in the game here. There is only something wrong with the odd form of insanity that led you to buy a game that ranted, raved and screamed about having these exact systems since day one, and even prior to that because the first game in the series has similar systems.
"I bought an RPG! why isn't it an FPS!?"
"I bought a game that focuses on cosmetic and player skill! Why doesn't it focus on item stats and player level!?"
"I bought X that was clearly described to be X even thought I like Y! Why isn't X Y!?"
Graphically this game is amazing, but besides the style of play which I didn't care for, I knew there wasn't any end game content and that turned me off even more. Like SWTOR, I don't want to just spend time re-rolling characters and leveling.
http://www.youtube.com/user/kclovesgaming <---- My Youtube Channel.
My comment was based on the fact that wows endgame has no meaning anymore and that a burning crusade raid system and even ulduar was great. The journey has been taken out of raiding which means wow has lost it's value in a PVE sense. RIft on the other hand which is going to cater for our future raiding needs, our ex wow guild and us will start playing a month before storm legion hits.
There is a reason why swtor never took off, because the endgame never had a journey when you have a faceroll mode and I am sure LFR has a lot to do with the latest round of 1.1million sub losses for blizzard. BC had a journey and even 3 weeks before WOLTK sub numbers just kept going up.
Now blizzard fanboys will come and preach that the game is getting old but the game was already old when TBC hit and a new game like SWTOR that followed the same PVE model wow has now with a smaller raid size being equal to a larger one and 3 modes of doing the content killed off the sub base pretty fast.
Last edited by DreamCast; 2012-09-05 at 08:10 AM.
I think GW2 is different in that doesn't hand-hold you as much as your average MMO.
When you were talking about how there is no endgame in GW2, I was wondering what's different in WoW. The only thing I can think of is the big gear treadmill, if that's endgame for you than GW2 probably won't be to your liking as you mentioned.
Edit: Another sidenote; copying the WoW model may sound good because you like WoW. But if you like WoW why would you switch? Pretty much all MMO releases lately have followed this model, it's refreshing to see something that is different enough to be called innovative. Don't get me wrong, I don't think GW2 is the second coming of christ but it plays substantially different from your average MMO. So it would be fair to give GW2 it's own type of niche, just like EVE online.
Last edited by Dezerte; 2012-09-05 at 08:17 AM.
To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
I’m not that arrogant.
The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.
The annual pass by blizzard was absolutely genius move by there marketing department.