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  1. #41
    I guess the first question to ask is, what do you want to do at "end game"?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCast View Post
    I probably should of made myself more clearer, first off I love gw2 and so does the missus, we are having great fun playing together and had a good laugh doing that cow event last night , the comments being made by us and players had us in stitches, funnest event I have ever done. I bought into the concept of gw2 for the reasons you stated above.

    My comment was based on the fact that wows endgame has no meaning anymore and that a burning crusade raid system and even ulduar was great. The journey has been taken out of raiding which means wow has lost it's value in a PVE sense. RIft on the other hand which is going to cater for our future raiding needs, our ex wow guild and us will start playing a month before storm legion hits.

    There is a reason why swtor never took off, because the endgame never had a journey when you have a faceroll mode and I am sure LFR has a lot to do with the latest round of 1.1million sub losses for blizzard. BC had a journey and even 3 weeks before WOLTK sub numbers just kept going up.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/wo...1-million-mark

    Now blizzard fanboys will come and preach that the game is getting old but the game was already old when TBC hit and a new game like SWTOR that followed the same PVE model wow has now with a smaller raid size being equal to a larger one and 3 modes of doing the content killed off the sub base pretty fast.
    Again, just because the end game doesn't match exactly what you like or want, it doesn't mean it isn't there. TBC's endgame was good for those that have the time dedicated to try it; but Blizz had stats that showed somewhere like 1% of the population actually got to Illidan and less than 10% actually attempted BT. So again, it's completely different type of end game compared to the current WoW and compared to GW2.

    Also, as mentioned before, you have to remember, you are PAYING for endgame for WoW due to subscription model; if they focused more heavily on levelling experience instead of the endgame, most people would have an awesome time the first month and then quit. GW2 is the opposite, it's a one time payment, therefore, any endgame and addition they add is basically free; they focused on levelling experience because that's what they should be doing for a one time payment game, and they did an AMAZING job at it.

  3. #43
    Collect gear for stats and looks. Make legendary weapons and armor (Gotta fill every slot!) and each one takes ~100-200 hours to complete, depending.
    Do world raids and bosses. Once they fix it, world DE's that last for days that culminate in a massive boss battle. (Apparently there's more structured raiding? But I can't confirm this)
    PvP your rank up.
    Make money.
    Do dungeons.
    Collect pets.
    Do achievements.

    Basically everything most MMO's have plus more, and possibly minus structured raiding. It's a beautiful game (admittedly the art is stylized and not for everyone) with lots to do. Some of it is bugged due to various DE's being bugged, but every day I see a couple fixed with new updates.

    I get the feeling that people are having a hard time staying attached for several reasons, but none of them include the game being "bad".

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Seolla View Post
    Again, just because the end game doesn't match exactly what you like or want, it doesn't mean it isn't there. TBC's endgame was good for those that have the time dedicated to try it; but Blizz had stats that showed somewhere like 1% of the population actually got to Illidan and less than 10% actually attempted BT. So again, it's completely different type of end game compared to the current WoW and compared to GW2.

    Also, as mentioned before, you have to remember, you are PAYING for endgame for WoW due to subscription model; if they focused more heavily on levelling experience instead of the endgame, most people would have an awesome time the first month and then quit. GW2 is the opposite, it's a one time payment, therefore, any endgame and addition they add is basically free; they focused on levelling experience because that's what they should be doing for a one time payment game, and they did an AMAZING job at it.
    Yeap, I can agree to basically everything you said, but yes for players like me wow endgame has lost it's substance and has become meaningless, but for others it might be great still. MoP will decide whether instant gratification is the winner over a journey based design.

    GW2 actually has a lot more personal charactor development then current wow. It's also great to see so many chars look unique with there different armor sets, where wow everyone looks like a clone nowadays.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCast View Post
    Yeap, I can agree to basically everything you said, but yes for players like me wow endgame has lost it's substance and has become meaningless, but for others it might be great still. MoP will decide whether instant gratification is the winner over a journey based design.

    GW2 actually has a lot more personal charactor development then current wow. It's also great to see so many chars look unique with there different armor sets, where wow everyone looks like a clone nowadays.
    Agreed, there is so much variety in GW2, the world is ALIVE which is something I have never felt in any other game before.

  6. #46
    I can support the idea of endgame in the sense of raids and such, but I can't support it in a way that forces me to come back and do it over and over again just so I can get the gear necessary to take on the next boss. I mean once you reach the level where the boss has the potential to destroy on a world scale it becomes pointless to continue raising the numbers just to give me a reason to keep playing.

    I would rather come back because my friends haven't seen the content, or there is new content. Not because I need to continue playing in order to be viable for the next content patch. I like this kind of MMO because without the subscription fee or weekly lockouts I am now free to do something else. I don't feel required to play this game above others just so I can keep up and not fall behind. I like that there isn't a significant difference in gear between this dungeon or that and I don't have to play for the full 6 months between content patches just so I can experience the next patch. I can now enjoy other games, other MMOs because this one doesn't require my time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can play it because I want to not because I need to.

    You don't need to keep playing GW2 once you hit 80 if you don't want to. If you have to ask what is there to do at max level in GW2 then maybe you would rather be playing another game. A game that gives you a "goal" to reach even if they keep pulling the finish line away from you, you like the fact that you can keep going. Some people want that method of improving their character, some of them want that feeling of superiority once the get the best gear in the patch because if they look back they can see how weak everything is now. But to me the Lich King was always this really powerful enemy that one would never take on alone no matter what your level of skill was. You needed an organize team that trusted each other to do their job to take him down. He kind of loses that threat when one skilled individual can now take him down alone.

  7. #47
    Immortal Clockwork Pinkie's Avatar
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    Spam Arah explorable runs, get best weapons in game via tokens and maybe buy the shard to help you make a legendary item.


  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    I think GW2 is different in that doesn't hand-hold you as much as your average MMO.

    [...]

    it would be fair to give GW2 it's own type of niche, just like EVE online.
    ... but in contrast to games such as EVE (which provide very little handholding in terms of "end-game" content) GW2 doesn't seem to have sufficient sandbox elements that would allow players to find & pursue their own goals.

    I think some commenters in this thread underestimate WoW quite severely by reducing its end-game to "raiding" - the strength of WoW is that it is several games packed into one huge package (and the MoP additions point further into that direction) and although competitors may be able to match the depth of each of these games they usually fail because they can't compete with the breadth of gameplay styles that modern WoW offers.
    People stay with WoW for years because it allows them to avoid boredom by switching between games (e.g. many players switch from raiding/PvE to PvP and RPG/leveling towards the end of an expansion) without having to leave their characters, their progress, their guild, ... behind.

    Personally, I didn't intend to buy GW2 as I don't think I will like its "endgame" but ended up buying it on impulse anyways. I am not even sure if I will continue prioritizing it over other games until I hit lvl 80 as I am not even 20 and the leveling already starts feeling repetitive - but if nothing else it will be a fun distraction for a few hours between other games.
    I can't really see myself playing it on the same level as other MMOs (30+ hours/week EVE for 4 years with only short periods of burnout), might replace my WoW subscription (which I only keep around for unrated bgs to unwind), though.

    edit: from what I have seen in-game and read on this forum GW2 seems to be lacking in the "massively multiplayer" department.
    I don't think all people who bemoan the lack of raiding really complain about GW2 not copying WoW's raids - I think "raiding" only stands as one example for a "medium-sized group of people working together towards one goal for at least several weeks/a few months".
    Map completion, dyes, crafting, ... are single player activities, arena pvp or dungeons are done in extremely small groups and WvW resets constantly.
    What seems to be lacking is activities which require the coordinated effort of 10-50 people over a period of several weeks - that's the sort of gameplay that spawns successful guilds and guilds create the social ties that keep people playing your game beyond the first 2 months.
    Last edited by florestan; 2012-09-05 at 09:12 AM.

  9. #49
    I don't get it.

    People saying 'TBC the best endgame experience'...do you honestly want that in GW2?

    I very much enjoyed TBC raiding back in the day but it's the last thing I would want to see implemented into GW2. Attunement for raids, gear based progression, massive time sinks. It just goes completely against all the design goals of GW2.

    I think people who say that kind of thing want that TBC experience back in WoW, GW2 is the wrong place to look for it or even ask for it.

  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    If a newbie player asked me what was there at lvl 80 in Wrath of the Lich King I would have told him: "Oh wow listen there's so much you can do man! You can either go PvP or PvE or a little bit of both.
    You can go PvP or PvE or a little of both in GW2.
    In any case you can do Battlegrounds, get honor and complete your PvP set.
    You can do WvW, arena and hot matches to earn Glory rewards to complete your PvP set in GW2.
    Get a good arena partner and achieve a high rating.
    You can get good arena partners and achieve high ratings in GW2.
    You can do dungeons and get nice pve gear so you can then move on to Raiding.
    You can do dungeons and get prestigious gear and legendaries in GW2.
    You can farm reputations to get cool pets, items and titles. You can do Achievements for many types of rewards.
    You can farm cool pets, items, dyes (~400) and achievements in GW2 (there are currently 234 achievements not counting the Daily &, Monthly cheeves) You can do Achievements for many types of rewards in GW2.
    If you get a good guild you can do Heroic Raids for the best loots.
    If you get a good guild, you can do Explorable Mode Dungeons for the most prestigious gear in GW2.
    You can level your professions and make some money, start saving up for that 16k Bike!
    You can level all the crafting disciplines on one character in GW2. These disciplines have a huge amount of recipes/patterns to learn/discover.
    Armorsmith ~1000
    Artificer ~700
    Cook ~600
    Huntsman ~1000
    Jeweler ~500
    Leatherworker ~900
    Tailor ~900
    Weaponsmith ~1000
    You can use the money you save up to purchase in game items or gems to purchase cash shop items.


    So it looks like what it comes down to is the difference between raids and dungeons. Let's take a look:

    The vast majority of raids in WoW are 10 man.
    The vast majority of dungeons in GW2 are 5 man.

    Difficulty range in WoW raids is from fairly easy to extremely difficult.
    Difficulty range in GW2 dungeons is from fairly easy to extremely difficult.

    Raids in WoW offer rewards such as achievements, gear and mounts.
    Dungeons in GW2 offer rewards such as achievements and gear. There are no mounts in GW2.

    What GW2 does offer that's very different is an entire world full of content that will never be trivialized or irrelevant. Where in WoW all you have is a world of faceroll content and one or possibly two raids that offer any kind of challenge or relevance.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Grable View Post
    Been playing since WoW launch as well, how is he wrong? The specific things he mentioned are all true.
    I agree.

    I played vanilla and it took me 5 months or so to hit 60 and then got just a taste of raiding in the run up to TBC.

    I spent a long time exploring zones over my level (stealthed as druid) and still getting killed all the time.

    Dungeons like Blackrock Depths took us many tries to complete because you needed to level up to get further through. They weren't the 20m sprints you get these days.

    My realm was (and is) an RP-PVP and there was world PvP and we had RP in guild and beyond. We'd have races around Azeroth and camp Crossroads or Tarren Mill for PvP. For various reasons this sort of thing died off.

    There were also big events like open the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj.

    So I had a lot of fun taking my time leveling, exploring the world, going out into the world finding people to help out - typical adventurer type stuff - without needing to hit level cap.

    Anyway, there is a lot more 'to do' in WoW now but I've never liked the way Blizz routinely 'trash' previous content and remove its relevance. So WoW is all about level cap now but that's largely their business choice. GW2 has gone out of its way to minimise this and do other things I approve of like level-playing field for pvp gear etc.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post

    What GW2 does offer that's very different is an entire world full of content that will never be trivialized or irrelevant. Where in WoW all you have is a world of faceroll content and one or possibly two raids that offer any kind of challenge or relevance.
    I think this is also quite an important point.

    Right now swtor, Rift and WoW are all preparing to raise the level cap and introduce a new set of content at this higher max level. Adding new content! Sounds great! Actually it's more accurate to say replacing content. Even if you think Gw2 has little to offer at max level, as they add to the game over the next few months and years everything will always stay relevant and challenging. As other MMOs write off content, GW2 will simply expand outward.

    My favorite raid in WoW was Ulduar, I can never go back an experience that raid quite like I did when it was released. This makes me sad.

  13. #53
    Some people are so mad at WoW they are blind about GW2.

    I really hate today's WoW because of what Blizzard has done to it, but honestly overall i feel like GW2 is not a better game. It goes it the right direction, the journey, but i already feel bored of this game, i don't want to log in anymore because i know i'll be bored in 15 min killing mobs and faceroll worldbosses.

    I want a journey in a world made of rainy jungles, hot deserts, high mountains, and epic vilains. Graphically, GW2 has those elements, but in the end it feels like a boring never-ending highway.

    I don't like the gameplay, there are too many annoying bugs, the PvP is even worse than WoW, there is no skill involved, so i guess i will stop this game and come back in a few weeks to see if it gets better, but i'm not sure it will.

  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nezera View Post
    Right now swtor, Rift and WoW are all preparing to raise the level cap and introduce a new set of content at this higher max level. Adding new content! Sounds great! Actually it's more accurate to say replacing content. Even if you think Gw2 has little to offer at max level, as they add to the game over the next few months and years everything will always stay relevant and challenging. As other MMOs write off content, GW2 will simply expand outward.
    While this complaint is true for WoW, Rift has introduced mentoring, and players do use it. While the current implementation still has some limitations and bugs, the "replacing content" is not an inherent problem of either game. (WoW also has gear normalization technology, but so far they've only been using it for PTR testing and in MoP for the new challenge dungeons.)

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Brocksley View Post
    Also, this is the first iteration of it. You are comparing 10 years of WoW to Vanilla GW2. Think of how much WoW has added on over time. GW2 will get there. Remember how little there was to do in Vanilla WoW?
    Sadly, people used this argument for Rift, Aion, SWTOR and Diablo 3. "But there's nothing to do when you reach max level" "What do yo expect its the first iteration, Wow wasnt good at the start either, etc."

    We've seen what happened, people just quit and went back to WOW / LOL / some console game.

    At this point, it's pretty much clear to me : for any game to challenge Wow for real, it has to have a DEEP endgame immediatly, or else people will just go play a game where grinding matters. That was SWTOR mistake. It was seriously the funniest leveling experience I ever had, but when you reached endgame, it was not good.

    I'm not seeing GW2 popularity last very long, sadly, especially with MOP in sight.

  16. #56
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by florestan View Post
    ... but in contrast to games such as EVE (which provide very little handholding in terms of "end-game" content) GW2 doesn't seem to have sufficient sandbox elements that would allow players to find & pursue their own goals.
    Agreed, I was merely comparing it to say WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by florestan
    edit: from what I have seen in-game and read on this forum GW2 seems to be lacking in the "massively multiplayer" department.
    I don't think all people who bemoan the lack of raiding really complain about GW2 not copying WoW's raids - I think "raiding" only stands as one example for a "medium-sized group of people working together towards one goal for at least several weeks/a few months".
    Map completion, dyes, crafting, ... are single player activities, arena pvp or dungeons are done in extremely small groups and WvW resets constantly.
    What seems to be lacking is activities which require the coordinated effort of 10-50 people over a period of several weeks - that's the sort of gameplay that spawns successful guilds and guilds create the social ties that keep people playing your game beyond the first 2 months.
    The idea is for WvWvW to fill that role, which is a refreshing change from the raid-model so commonly used.
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  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire MmoFanatic's Avatar
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    seriusly i'm so freaking bored of all these ex wow players that are so set on about how a game should be. tell me why please why just cus u have the number 80 beside u everything changes. isn't the main goal to have fun? so why stop doing the things u thought was fun just cus u don't get the number 81. The Game is The Endgame! don't get why people are so set on that The game starts when u hit max.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Sissyfoo View Post
    Interesting to note that WoW players are looked down upon in GW2. I noticed a lot of that in SWToR as well. Funny to think that because I have played WoW for so long I am now a social leper both online and in the real world. :-)
    It's like that in every mmo I've tested, from AoC to Rift and now GW2 because they all act like special snowflakes but I laugh at it since I know that most of them played WoW regardless of what they say. Don't pay any attention to them; there are a lot of other mature players to interact with instead who don't have an inferiority complex because they used to play WoW.
    There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who dont.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvanie View Post
    While this complaint is true for WoW, Rift has introduced mentoring, and players do use it. While the current implementation still has some limitations and bugs, the "replacing content" is not an inherent problem of either game. (WoW also has gear normalization technology, but so far they've only been using it for PTR testing and in MoP for the new challenge dungeons.)
    That is true, I very much enjoyed doing a bit of Instant Adventure on my level 50 char and going back to some of the earlier zones through it.

    I guess what I was mainly referring to by content is the dungeons and raids. Even if you can mentor back down once the level 50 raids are surpassed will anyone actually be incentivised to do so in a gear progression based game?

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alianthos View Post
    Sadly, people used this argument for Rift, Aion, SWTOR and Diablo 3. "But there's nothing to do when you reach max level" "What do yo expect its the first iteration, Wow wasnt good at the start either, etc."
    Actually, that argument does not work for Rift. Rift had an endgame right from the start, and Trion has been considerably better than Blizzard at delivering new content patches.

    At this point, it's pretty much clear to me : for any game to challenge Wow for real, it has to have a DEEP endgame immediatly, or else people will just go play a game where grinding matters. That was SWTOR mistake. It was seriously the funniest leveling experience I ever had, but when you reached endgame, it was not good.
    The problem with that argument is that most WoW players do not actually play the "deep endgame". There are millions of players that have had nothing to do bt the three Hour of Twilight heroics and LFR for the past nine months. Which is very little and very shallow content (especially the heroics that were outgeared in a week or two -- they were balanced around item level 353, rewarded item level 378 drops). WoW has been consistently very bad at delivering non-raid content after the start of an expansion, and only a minority of players raid.

    I suspect that WoW's biggest "draw" is the lock-in factor. Players not only have friends in WoW that they could no longer play with if they migrated to a different game, but they also have considerable investment in their characters that they're loathe to give up. I don't think it's much more complex than that.

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