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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    And so many more than that.

    I am loving how some people are calling power creep on everything. While some of it may be true, I think a lot of it is just people complaining.

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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    And so many more than that.

    I am loving how some people are calling power creep on everything. While some of it may be true, I think a lot of it is just people complaining.
    "some" of it ? :P

    10 years ago, a 5/5 creature for 4 mana with a drawback was good in standard. Nowadays, a 5/5 creature for 4 mana with a good ability is considered crap by the majority.

    10 years ago, a 3-color deck required a really good manabase. 3 years ago we had 5-color control...

    10 years ago, a spell that couldn't be countered was "WHOAAA!". Nowadays, there's more spells that can't be countered (check the spoiler), less counters around, and the spells that can't be countered are again mostly considered between mediocre and good, with one or two exceptions of awesome.

    10 years ago, destroying all creatures your opponent controlled cost 9 mana. Now it can cost only 5 to 6 and it also does 5 damage to the opponent all in one little package.

    We could continue, but what for I think there's plenty of examples of power creep around, and this is only look at "big" cards. The smaller utility cards also have quite a few examples...

    ... And don't get me started on griselbrand -_-

  3. #43
    Moderator Pendulous's Avatar
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    Baneslayer Angel vs. Serra Angel. Serra Angel was rare until M10. Now compare that to the similar costing Baneslayer. Yes, it IS that bad, but it also doesn't mean that older cards are useless. It just means that Timmy decks are much more common.

    A more common example: Quirion Trailblazer vs. Ondu Giant. Two cards that do the exact same for the same mana cost. One is a 1/2, the other is a 2/4, both common.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 05:32 PM ----------

    I don't get these " do x to two nonland cards with the same name" cards like Sphinx of the Chimes. http://mtgsalvation.com/return-to-ra...iler.html#6476

    How often are you gonna have two cards of the same name in your hand?
    Last edited by Pendulous; 2012-09-13 at 08:42 PM.

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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    [/COLOR]I don't get these " do x to two nonland cards with the same name" cards like Sphinx of the Chimes. http://mtgsalvation.com/return-to-ra...iler.html#6476

    How often are you gonna have two cards of the same name in your hand?
    Well, you could be playing a relentless rats deck :P those that you can use any amount of in a deck...

  5. #45
    This thread has piqued my interest in MtG again. I'm an old school player (began in unlimited and played through to around Kamigawa). Are block constructed and draft still the main tournament mainstays?
    What's the protour/organised tourney scene like nowadays?

    and lastly...can anyone point me to a great type 1 deck list (Type 1 is old speak for allowing cards from all sets but with a banned + restricted list. I know it's not called Type 1 anymore). I just found a club in my area and I'm considering showing off old cards.

    Thanks

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorkle View Post
    "some" of it ? :P

    10 years ago, a 5/5 creature for 4 mana with a drawback was good in standard. Nowadays, a 5/5 creature for 4 mana with a good ability is considered crap by the majority.
    All of that was because of the Titans. Then we had the Bolt test. Then we had the Dismember test. It will take time for people to get out of those ways of thinking. I assume the 5/5 for 4 you are talking about is Deadbridge Goliath. It really isn't that good, even without the Titans. If you play it then it gets chumped all day by tokens and there is no guarantee whatever you give the +5/+5 to will stick around. Of course cards like the Goliath make sure that you get value after they are gone, which is good, but when you have Dreg Mangler and Slitherhead showing their faces for what a Scavenge card should be, where it is either free or playing the card and it dying next turn means you can use it's ability right afterwards. Turn 4 with the Goliath is where you need something that will stick around or have some sort of small impact on the board.

    10 years ago, a 3-color deck required a really good manabase. 3 years ago we had 5-color control...
    That isn't power creep, that is mana fixing. Mana fixing has been around since the last Ravnica, not to mention 10 years ago was Onslaught where we had our first fetch lands, where mana fixing really started. Cavern of Souls is the closest thing to power creep for a land.

    10 years ago, a spell that couldn't be countered was "WHOAAA!". Nowadays, there's more spells that can't be countered (check the spoiler), less counters around, and the spells that can't be countered are again mostly considered between mediocre and good, with one or two exceptions of awesome.
    You must remember that everything runs in a cycle and counters (and blue) have been close to #1 since the game was created. This Standard Delver is a power house, although not #1, alone with plenty of other decks that I can't name them all.

    Last season U/W control, U/B control, and Caw-Blade, and it's many color variations, were top along with Valakut. All of the control decks had rather strong spells between two of the best planeswalkers ever with Jace 2 and Gideon, Preordain, Memoricide, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, Spreading Seas, Go for the Throat, and a few others.

    ALA/Zen season was Jund with contol, and believe me that seasons Jund would still stomp around even now.

    LOR/ALA was Faeries which was U/B running around with rather overpowered spells like Bitterblossom, Cryptic Command, and Thoughtseize.

    TSP/LOR was 5 color control.

    As you can see the last 5 years control and spells have been king and that isn't even counting since the very beginning of the game where blue has pretty much been #1, except for a year or two where blue didn't take things seriously.

    Gaea's Revenge last standard is an 8/5 that had psuedo hexproof and couldn't be countered, but wasn't very good because of Titans and Baneslayer Angel. Emrakul didn't destroy standard, Demonfire didn't destroy it, and Stag made sure Faeries was kept in check.

    10 years ago, destroying all creatures your opponent controlled cost 9 mana. Now it can cost only 5 to 6 and it also does 5 damage to the opponent all in one little package.
    Ummm......what? Board wipes were even better back then as they almost all stopped regeneration or exiled the creatures they dealt damage to. Wrath of God, Flamewave, Mutilate, Akroma's Vengeance, Breaking Point, Catastrophe, Damnation, Day of Judgement, Decree of Pain, Devastation, Jokulhaups, Kirtar's Wrath, Life's Finale, Martial Coup, Nevinyrral's Disk, Magus of the Disk, Obliterate, Overwhelming Forces, Rout, Oblivion Stone, and Sunscour. All of these cost less than 9 and for control has almost always said "Destroy all creatures your opponent controls" because you are going to have zero to two creatures out and those are usually chump blockers played early for their effects. Most of those are 10 years or older.

    We could continue, but what for I think there's plenty of examples of power creep around, and this is only look at "big" cards. The smaller utility cards also have quite a few examples...

    ... And don't get me started on griselbrand -_-
    10+ years ago creatures were awful. Paying 5 for Serra Angel was good, but Craw Wurm wasn't, only for it to get blown up with Terror for 2 was more or less unfair. Creatures needed a boost, but nowadays you can't just scream power creep from cards 10 years ago. Almost since the beginning spells were the most powerful thing around, that is why Draw-Go used to be a deck, because that is all you had to do was untap, draw, and pass the turn. You need to look in a shorter span of time. For this Ravnica seeing the older Ravnica will show us some power creep.

    Now I will admit that a lot of creatures have been too good. Baneslayer was only good because of it's mana cost and still then it is weaker than Akroma, which came out 10 years ago. The reason creatures have gotten even this far is because, back in the day, it wasn't fun to cast a Quirion Trailblazer when you could cast two Rampant Growth for the same effect and play the big creature you were going to anyways. Which is why, like Pendulous point out, Ondu Giant is better, because you need to get the bang you pay for.

    Of course some creatures seem overpowered because of the cards around them. Stoneforge Mystic was a 50 cent rare before the other swords and Batterskull came out. Primeval Titan would not have seemed awesome if it wasn't for abusing Valakut and vice verse.

    You also need to look at each creature and look at it further. Griselbrand can not be played in 3+ color decks, although the shocks will help with that, plus he is a legendary creature with quite a bit of back story, he was Avacyn's equal and they made sure to have them be amazing. Creatures that need 2 or 3 colors will always be stronger for less mana because of the hoops you have to go through to play it, which is why we are seeing a 3/3 for 1WG rather than last Ravnica where we got a 3/1 for 2w/g because it was basically a mono colored creature when you get down to it. That is why Leatherback Baloth can be a 4/5 for GGG because you are not playing it in anything else, but mono green and why Sprouting Thrinax was 6 total power for BRG. You also need to look at rarity as that usually has a bearing for power as well. Lore is another thing to consider. Trolls usually have Hexproof (or Troll Shroud as it was long ago) because they have almost always had in the Magic universe, which is why Thrun was such a big deal as he was the last one and on Mirrodin they were known for Troll Shroud and regeneration, example being Troll Ascetic, then because he was the very last one on the plane it showed his strength, which is the 4/4 for 4. Being the last one and for being so old you can see he survived a long time, which lends to all 3 of his abilities. Thrun being mythic made sense since he was the last troll, he was a sight so rare it was rarer than that to see another troll.

    Griselbrand, as stated before, shows his powers in the story. Lilianna got a contract from him for longer life, which is his life for drawing ability. Flying is pretty self explanatory by the art and first strike can be seen as well because of the weapons for hands. He is that strong because he is the king of demons on Innistrad and, clearly from Lilianna's story, is rather powerful to extend the life of someone in exchange for something. Mythic lends itself here as well because of how integral he is to the plane and the story.

    There is more to just a creature than "just because". You have to understand more about the plane and the story to understand the power and why. Of course there are mistakes that slip through a plenty and other situations where it is "just because". The Eldrazi are a mix between "just because" and lore reasons.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-13 at 07:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    I don't get these " do x to two nonland cards with the same name" cards like Sphinx of the Chimes. http://mtgsalvation.com/return-to-ra...iler.html#6476

    How often are you gonna have two cards of the same name in your hand?
    You would be surprised how often that happens, now if you need the cards or not to discard and get more is the larger question. At least it is the one creature ever that no one will say "It is good in EDH".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kald View Post
    This thread has piqued my interest in MtG again. I'm an old school player (began in unlimited and played through to around Kamigawa). Are block constructed and draft still the main tournament mainstays?
    What's the protour/organised tourney scene like nowadays?

    and lastly...can anyone point me to a great type 1 deck list (Type 1 is old speak for allowing cards from all sets but with a banned + restricted list. I know it's not called Type 1 anymore). I just found a club in my area and I'm considering showing off old cards.

    Thanks
    Block Constructed normally doesn't take place, at least in my area, you may be able to find something near you, but from what I can gather Block Constructed only really takes place in much larger tournament scenes with SCG opens, Grand Prix, and Pro Tours where a lot of different things could be taking place.

    As for the scene for Pro Tours and SCG Opens, I only know Standard unfortunately.

    As for pointing you in a direction for decks you can go to MTGSalvation and head down to the Legacy (Type 1) section or Vintage if you want to go there, but Vintage is dying so I wouldn't recommend Vintage.

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  7. #47
    Moderator Pendulous's Avatar
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    K, I have a rules question that just came into being with my friends. Player 1 has Boneyard Wurm in play, and a Reassembling skeleton in the graveyard. Player B casts Reminisce, forcing him to shuffle his graveyard back into his library. As a counter, Player A uses Reassembling Skeleton's ability to bring it back into play. As it was the only creature in his graveyard, Boneyard Wurm dies. Does Boneyard Wurm go into the graveyard before Reminisce resolves? I told them I believe it did, as all effects of Reassembling Skeleton should resolve before the next spell takes effect. However, since dying isn't an effect that goes on the stack, I do not know how that works.

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  8. #48
    i played in the days of type 1 and 1.5, i remember 4th 5th and 6th edition, i remember a friend of mine spending a fair bit of cash on a slither deck, only to be torn apart by my goblin burn deck which i built from the 10c box at our local gameshop
    I see Stupid people!

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    K, I have a rules question that just came into being with my friends. Player 1 has Boneyard Wurm in play, and a Reassembling skeleton in the graveyard. Player B casts Reminisce, forcing him to shuffle his graveyard back into his library. As a counter, Player A uses Reassembling Skeleton's ability to bring it back into play. As it was the only creature in his graveyard, Boneyard Wurm dies. Does Boneyard Wurm go into the graveyard before Reminisce resolves? I told them I believe it did, as all effects of Reassembling Skeleton should resolve before the next spell takes effect. However, since dying isn't an effect that goes on the stack, I do not know how that works.
    Boneyard Wurm will definitely go into the library. After every spell resolves each player will get priority and state based actions will take place, Boneyard Wurm will have 0 toughness and will be put into the graveyard before Reminisce resolves. Then Reminisce will resolve and Boneyard Wurm will go to the library.

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  10. #50
    Moderator Pendulous's Avatar
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    The discussion comments in Gatherer can be amusing:

    Soulless One: "Oddly enough, Remove Soul still kills it".

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  11. #51
    Can't believe they are reprinting this:


    I am curious to see how this will pan out. All they need to do is reprint Birds of Paradise and this set will be complete for me.

  12. #52
    Pithing Needle is definitely nice, although it would have been better when Caw-Blade was running around. Right now there isn't a whole lot that it needs to stop all of the time, but I bet it will find something to stop in due time.

    I like the human more as a 2/2 haste first strike is definitely good, even if it's ability never happens.

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  13. #53
    Moderator Pendulous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theory of Thaddeus View Post
    I am curious to see how this will pan out. All they need to do is reprint Birds of Paradise and this set will be complete for me.
    Birds of Paradise was reprinted for Ravnica: City of Guilds, interestingly enough.

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  14. #54
    I like this card for self mill. Just throw 40 cards in your graveyard to make them get rid of 40. It probably won't happen, but I can imagine one sealed game being won because of this card.


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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    I like this card for self mill. Just throw 40 cards in your graveyard to make them get rid of 40. It probably won't happen, but I can imagine one sealed game being won because of this card.

    I have a B/R/U Zombie EDH deck that punts a LOT of my library into the GY to pull out when I need it...that card is going to be an extremely nice addition!
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    I have a B/R/U Zombie EDH deck that punts a LOT of my library into the GY to pull out when I need it...that card is going to be an extremely nice addition!
    And Mimeoplasm is going to love it as well.

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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    Birds of Paradise was reprinted for Ravnica: City of Guilds, interestingly enough.
    Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Birds has always been in a core set except 9th edition. It was in Ravnica at that time. Hopefully they repeat the process (and give it a new art).

  18. #58
    Moderator Pendulous's Avatar
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    Mercurial Chemister is OP. No way can they justify a repeatable two-card draw for one damn mana. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1&d=1347509943

    Psychic Spiral seems like a callback to Tunnel Vision, since it kind of works in reverse. Similar to how Grove of the Guardian is a callback to Guardian of Vitu-Ghazi, though the power and toughness are different.

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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kald View Post
    This thread has piqued my interest in MtG again. I'm an old school player (began in unlimited and played through to around Kamigawa). Are block constructed and draft still the main tournament mainstays?
    What's the protour/organised tourney scene like nowadays?

    and lastly...can anyone point me to a great type 1 deck list (Type 1 is old speak for allowing cards from all sets but with a banned + restricted list. I know it's not called Type 1 anymore). I just found a club in my area and I'm considering showing off old cards.

    Thanks
    ....Nooooo :P

    Standard and legacy are the most played formats at the moment. And you really don't want to play vintage nowadays, it's a bit of a cruel format if you don't have the cards. I suggest you research a bit on legacy.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-15 at 12:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    I assume the 5/5 for 4 you are talking about is Deadbridge Goliath. It really isn't that good, even without the Titans.
    So, you're saying I am right, right? Once it would have been best creature in standard and featured in every deck, now it "really isn't that good". That's power creep right then and there.

    That isn't power creep, that is mana fixing.
    -_- Right because something getting much better is not power creep. LOGIC!!!!

    Mana fixing has been around since the last Ravnica
    And yet, ravnica was 2-3 colors mostly, like most other formats before. Enter lorwyin/alara and VOILA, things change. Mana fixing has been around forever. The power creep in mana has not.

    You must remember that everything runs in a cycle and counters (and blue) have been close to #1 since the game was created.
    And that is relevant... Because? Not only is it no justification for power creep, it also goes in direct opposition of what wizards states they believe.

    This Standard Delver is a power house, although not #1, alone with plenty of other decks that I can't name them all.
    None of them are control, though. And a 3/2 evasion creature for 1 is not a good example of power creep. Nope. No siree...

    Last season U/W control, U/B control, and Caw-Blade, and it's many color variations, were top along with Valakut.
    Relation to the matter at hand: none.

    two of the best planeswalkers ever with Jace 2 and Gideon
    We can't really consider planeswalkers on power creep analysis. They are too recent.

    Preordain
    Another good example of power creep, as is ponder. Outside of brainstorm, which wizards considers an error and out of their vision for card filtering, these are far better than everything in the past (opt, sleight of hand, serum visions). Power creep!

    ALA/Zen season was Jund with contol, and believe me that seasons Jund would still stomp around even now.
    Power creep cannot be seen in decks, but in individual cards. This has no relevance.

    LOR/ALA was Faeries which was U/B running around with rather overpowered spells like Bitterblossom, Cryptic Command, and Thoughtseize.
    Yup, and that was considered so bad by wizards that they totally overshot the issue. However, this was actually a fun and diverse format. There were all styles of decks, which is something we don't have nowadays. However, relation to power creep: low...

    As you can see the last 5 years control and spells have been king and that isn't even counting since the very beginning of the game where blue has pretty much been #1, except for a year or two where blue didn't take things seriously.
    We are not talking about counterspells and control isn't just counterspells. We were talking about power creep. And a 3/4 uncounterable by 5 with pro blue is quite a bit worse than a 4/4 uncounterable by 3 (example). Power creep.

    Gaea's Revenge last standard is an 8/5 that had psuedo hexproof and couldn't be countered, but wasn't very good because of Titans and Baneslayer Angel. Emrakul didn't destroy standard, Demonfire didn't destroy it, and Stag made sure Faeries was kept in check.
    Relevance: null, however the existance of griselbrand sure damaged legacy. Do remember that there exist more formats than standard.

    Ummm......what? Board wipes were even better back then as they almost all stopped regeneration or exiled the creatures they dealt damage to.
    We're talking about board wipes only for the opponent, or plague wind, which costs 9 mana.

    Wrath of God, Flamewave, Mutilate, Akroma's Vengeance, Breaking Point, Catastrophe, Damnation, Day of Judgement, Decree of Pain, Devastation, Jokulhaups, Kirtar's Wrath, Life's Finale, Martial Coup, Nevinyrral's Disk, Magus of the Disk, Obliterate, Overwhelming Forces, Rout, Oblivion Stone, and Sunscour. All of these cost less than 9 and for control has almost always said "Destroy all creatures your opponent controls" because you are going to have zero to two creatures out and those are usually chump blockers played early for their effects. Most of those are 10 years or older.
    Are you really incapable of seeing the difference between choosing a good strategy of breaking symmetrical cards and using a card that is not symmetrical at all? How can you even bring this up? That is like speaking about strawberries when people are discussing baking bread!

    10+ years ago creatures were awful.
    Yes and no. There were some good creatures, but yes, they might have been a little below the curve. Thing is, now they are GREATLY above the curve. Did you see the new bloody W/G hybrid spell? It's nearly an insult!

    but nowadays you can't just scream power creep from cards 10 years ago.
    Why not?

    Almost since the beginning spells were the most powerful thing around, that is why Draw-Go used to be a deck, because that is all you had to do was untap, draw, and pass the turn. You need to look in a shorter span of time. For this Ravnica seeing the older Ravnica will show us some power creep.
    Explain. Power creep can't be seen in a short span of time, it has to be seen in a large one, or it's pointless.

    Baneslayer was only good because of it's mana cost and still then it is weaker than Akroma
    Baneslayer...is weaker... Than akroma?????????????????????????????????????????????????

    Griselbrand can not be played in 3+ color decks
    He can't? How hilarious, he is only played in 3-4 color decks I guess you should go teach all the great legacy players how to play, then!

    he was Avacyn's equal and they made sure to have them be amazing
    Care factor is NULL! Story shouldn't make cards overpowered. Ever. EVER!!!!! It could be the friggin ender of the multiverse and STILL it should be a well balanced card.

    . Creatures that need 2 or 3 colors will always be stronger for less mana because of the hoops you have to go through to play it
    No shit sherlock. Captain obvious to the rescue!!!!

    which is why we are seeing a 3/3 for 1WG rather than last Ravnica where we got a 3/1 for 2w/g because it was basically a mono colored creature when you get down to it
    Does anyone have the dictionary definition of "duh" ?

    Anyway, rest of the post is stuff that have no relation or relevance to the matter at hand and are obvious, so I'll just stop here. Please stay on track, focus on the issue being discussed and avoid the obvious, I'm no newbie to the game and if I am to treat you as an equal I'd like the same back. Thank you very much.

    Final note: Legacy is type 1.5 and vintage is type 1, if you want to go by types.

    Mod warning: post respectfully please, you can disagree without getting personal
    Last edited by Pendulous; 2012-09-14 at 11:28 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorkle View Post
    So, you're saying I am right, right? Once it would have been best creature in standard and featured in every deck, now it "really isn't that good". That's power creep right then and there.
    Yes every deck, but you said mana was bad back then, so how would every deck play it?

    -_- Right because something getting much better is not power creep. LOGIC!!!!
    Wrong, to this day the A/B/R Duals are the best lands, therefore you can't have power creep on lands that need something else to do what they did, like have another land out, played before your 3rd land, needing to put mana into it to get 2 mana meaning it sucks as a turn one land, revealing a specific creature type, or paying 2 life. Or do you honestly think that the A/B/R duals are bad? And that doesn't even count the snow versions of them which are just as good or better depending on the cards around them.

    Mana fixing doesn't mean better lands. It means that they finally started printing duals that don't just make allied colors. It wasn't until Ravnica that we really had enemy dual lands. Accessing those of course means you can now play more or better things.

    Show me lands that are power creep that their only purpose is mana.

    And yet, ravnica was 2-3 colors mostly, like most other formats before. Enter lorwyin/alara and VOILA, things change. Mana fixing has been around forever. The power creep in mana has not.
    Ravnica had more than just 2-3 colors running around. 4 color control was a thing and even now when mana fixing is at it's normal we have 4 color decks with FRites and the only reason that deck is around right now is because of Birds of Paradise.

    And that is relevant... Because? Not only is it no justification for power creep, it also goes in direct opposition of what wizards states they believe.
    It matters because creatures were always poor in comparison to their spell counter parts. What person would play the 1/2 for 4 that gets you a basic land when you could do it for 2 with Rampant Growth or play Llanowar Elves/Birds of Paradise?

    None of them are control, though. And a 3/2 evasion creature for 1 is not a good example of power creep. Nope. No siree...
    It isn't a 3/2 100% of the time, nor is it assured it will become one on turn 2. People are mad cause blue got a good creature for once.


    Relation to the matter at hand: none.
    Yes it does. It shows that spells were ruling the meta that entire season.

    Another good example of power creep, as is ponder. Outside of brainstorm, which wizards considers an error and out of their vision for card filtering, these are far better than everything in the past (opt, sleight of hand, serum visions). Power creep!
    We are talking about power creep for creatures here and my examples showed that spells have been more powerful for a long time. You agreeing that Ponder, Preordain, and Brainstorm shows that spells are powerful.

    Yup, and that was considered so bad by wizards that they totally overshot the issue. However, this was actually a fun and diverse format. There were all styles of decks, which is something we don't have nowadays. However, relation to power creep: low...
    I don't know what you were playing, but Faeries were dominating the format for almost the entirety of the season. Go back and see multiple top 8 finishes in almost every tournament. It wasn't until Alara Reborn that we saw Jund starting to have any chance against them. It was either play Faeries or Jund.


    We are not talking about counterspells and control isn't just counterspells. We were talking about power creep. And a 3/4 uncounterable by 5 with pro blue is quite a bit worse than a 4/4 uncounterable by 3 (example). Power creep.
    You mean the 4/4 that comes down and immediately gets destroyed or chumped? Like Loxodon Smiter? Just because it comes down doesn't mean it can't be stopped. You make it sound like it has Hexproof and protection from all colors. It is just a vanilla 4/4 for 3 while in play. Not at all a big deal. No one would counter a vanilla 4/4 anyways. Not many countered my Leatherback Baloth since they could chump it or kill it. Plus no one is going to discard him anyways, since the only discard spell worth any can't make you discard it.

    Relevance: null, however the existance of griselbrand sure damaged legacy. Do remember that there exist more formats than standard.
    Okay let's see recent Legacy Opens for all of this damaging going on.

    9/9 - Only 2 in the top 16.
    9/2 - 6 in the top 16 and 3 more in the top 32.
    8/26 - 4 in top 8, in one deck.
    8/12 - 0 in the top 16
    8/5 - 0 in the top 32
    7/29 - 2 in the top 8, 2 more in top 16
    7/22 - 8 in the top 16 for two decks

    I can keep going farther back, but over the last two months he no more destroyed Legacy than any other big creature and the only decks that really used him are Reanimator as a 2-4 of or in Omni-Tell as a 2 of. Do remember to look into the numbers. I don't even look at Legacy and I knew Griselbrand wasn't as bad as you made him out to be.

    As you can see, him showing up in one or two decks doesn't show him damaging Legacy because I see more Esper Stoneblades than I do Reanimator or Omni-tell.

    He is only banned in Commander, but that is because a 40 life start allows him to do crazy things for any EDH deck.

    We're talking about board wipes only for the opponent, or plague wind, which costs 9 mana.
    Which is over costed. If destroying every creature for 4 is fine than how does nine make sense for one person? Plus the only ones that use board wipes are combo, control, and one or two in aggro, every so often, against other aggro decks. Which means that for control you are only really blowing up their side of the field, so it, basically, means a one sided wipe. I know I wouldn't pay 9 when I can get the same basic effect for 6 or less.

    Are you really incapable of seeing the difference between choosing a good strategy of breaking symmetrical cards and using a card that is not symmetrical at all? How can you even bring this up? That is like speaking about strawberries when people are discussing baking bread!
    Because, as I stated, in a control or combo deck where you use 4-8 creatures max, you will only really be blowing up their side of the field more often than not or if you do blow up something of yours it really doesn't matter. Just like when U/W control during Zen/SoM would use Day of Judgement while they had one Wall of Omens up. They couldn't care less if their 0/4 gets blown up if they destroy 2 or more of their opponents creatures or something like a Primeval Titan. That is why that matters.

    Again, why pay 9 to only blow up your opponents side of the field when you can get the same basic effect for 6 or less?

    Yes and no. There were some good creatures, but yes, they might have been a little below the curve. Thing is, now they are GREATLY above the curve. Did you see the new bloody W/G hybrid spell? It's nearly an insult!
    Okay I agree on that, Dryad Militant is pushed, A LOT.

    Baneslayer...is weaker... Than akroma?????????????????????????????????????????????????
    Having protection from one of the colors that will kill it is sure as hell a lot better than protection from dragons and demons. Not to mention Akroma would have stood a chance against the Titans and Wurmcoil. Besides lifelink you can tell that Baneslayer is Akroma's little sister with abilities like that. Plus she is part of one of my favorite Magic characters.

    He can't? How hilarious, he is only played in 3-4 color decks I guess you should go teach all the great legacy players how to play, then!
    You mean where he was only in, at most, 3 decks, and in, at most, the top 32 of the last 2 months of Legacy Opens where he isn't really causing any trouble? He has the same numbers as Eldrazi Green did in standard last year and no one was complaining about that deck showing up in a top 32 ever.

    I see more Maverick G/W decks than I do Griselbrand cards showing up total in the Legacy Opens. Looks like legacy players already know what to do.

    Care factor is NULL! Story shouldn't make cards overpowered. Ever. EVER!!!!! It could be the friggin ender of the multiverse and STILL it should be a well balanced card.
    Story shouldn't make cards? How long have you been playing? Cards since Ice Age have been showing story events and them being crazy. Emrakul, Kozilek, Ulamog, Obliteration, Kamahl, Jeska, Akroma, Phage, Thrun, all 5 praetors, Karn, Karn again, Legacy Weapon, the Mirari, and the almost hundred of other times where that is the case.

    Yes, they take it far sometimes, but if the card doesn't match what the story has, then there is a disconnect. We also have times when cards are strong with no story like Jace 2, does that mean there is no reason at all to make a strong card, at least with a story you can see why a character has power or not, like Tibalt. Part of the reason he is so cheap, mana cost wise, and bad is because he is a baby planeswalker. No, not because of his age, but because his spark had just activated in the story and didn't know enough about this powers yet.

    No shit sherlock. Captain obvious to the rescue!!!!

    And yet you find it odd that creatures with that exact reasoning with cost, rarity, and story are stronger than normal.
    Does anyone have the dictionary definition of "duh" ?

    Anyway, rest of the post is stuff that have no relation or relevance to the matter at hand and are obvious, so I'll just stop here. Please stay on track, focus on the issue being discussed and avoid the obvious, I'm no newbie to the game and if I am to treat you as an equal I'd like the same back. Thank you very much.
    Not sure what you are talking about. You seem to be the one disrespecting me for little reason.


    Fact is cards are stronger, everywhere. Spells and creatures are better, but creatures had to evolve much more to make them just as good as spells have been. Why that is so surprising to a lot people is surprising to me.

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