Snowballing to hard?

[Deleted]

There was a post on Reddit with some pretty good information on snowballing. It really isn't as bad as it seems.
See here: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ally_snowball/

[Deleted]

Welcome to League of Legends.
The game is usually decided at ~15 minute mark.

You are so wrong. You cannot be wronger.

I Saw games turning where no towers were left while the other team had plenty of them, and still won the game.
I saw games turning where people fed hard (like 0-9 at the start) and with teamwork you still won the game.

The key is teamwork, but instead it is mostly flamework in the team, of course the game is decided after 15 minutes when this appears.

[Waterisbest]

Tbh, almost every game in every MOBA is decided in the first 20 mins, sometimes even earlier. It's very rare that a good team with a GOOD advantage will fuck up and loose.

Riot agrees the game has become too snowbally, especially top lane. They agree that items are not very attractive and don't add anything outside of stats. They also want more strategies outside of the current meta.

All these three things (and some more) will change for season 3. More active items will be added, even for AD carries. Snowballing will be reduced hence making comebacks more possible. More strategies to play with, however even though LoL has a strict meta currently, there are multiple valid strategies that you can apply.

The major reason why people can't make a comeback in LoL is, super minions. They ruin the game. The team is already behind in terms of gold, have lost turrets and now have to deal with super minions. Super minions in LoL should be nerfed. They should be able to clear out a wave of ordinary minions but shouldn't have the amount of health they currently have and should be much easier to deal with. A turret should be able to kill a super minion easily in order to remove the part where the enemy team doesn't even need to attack the base anymore because super minions are doing the attacking for them. Maybe they can also reduce the amount of super minions spawn. Making this change will heavily favor more comebacks.

I don't agree with CS denying how it is in DOTA, it actually encourages more snowballing. I also don't like the lose of gold on death, same reason as before. I like the denying tower part however. It's actually a very good mechanic. The tower will be lost anyways once it reaches critical health, you cannot stop it anymore, so if you deny it, it will stop the enemy team from snowballing more or getting global gold, a very anti-snowballing mechanic.

I think summoner spells will also be looked at for season 3. I expect a big change because right now, they are extremely boring and not many are viable and are used very rarely.

[Deleted]

No its not. In Dota the dead player losses money, in LoL that doesnt happen, that means in Dota the team getting more kills snowball harder.

I think losing gold on death makes the game less snowbally. While yes, it does make kills more important, it also means that you can set their most fed or farmed players back significantly by ganking them. If their Weaver is on 3 kills and is 300g from his relic, just gank him and much of his advantage is lost. Ace their team and that's a huge swing in gold. The current pushing meta also favours teams who can take advantage of openings quickly rather than look for fights everywhere. You don't necessarily need to be ahead to backdoor their towers with Prophet, Tinker or Clinkz, and towers are worth much more in dota.

[Deleted]

It really depends on the team comp, because some teams like to play good early game champions and try win the game quickly, if the team who is losing has good late game champions the only chance of them winning is just defending for 30 minutes and trying to push a late game ace, baron and turn it round like that. But it is rare for that to happen in tournament play.

[Crashdummy]

Battle Fury is. Scepter, Mek, Pipe, and Blink aren't. Active items are much more powerful and influencing in Dota 2. Items in LoL don't counter each other. Items in LoL come down to "How much gold am I paying per stat?" There's a reason there is so much more math and theory crafitng in LoL compared to Dota 2. The lack of Active effects on many items means deciding to buy it comes down to "Is this more cost-efficient?" The fact you're even trying to compare the two games items shows how much you don't realize. There is nothing in LoL that can compare to SK or Enig getting a blink, QoP getting her Hex, or pre-nerf DS getting an Aganims.

Void is an example of one of the hardest carries in the game who requires a significant amount of baby-sitting, farm. and time to get to that point. To allow heroes like that to reach that critical mass is a fault on your part. There are ways to shut down carries, even when they get to that point (Sheepstick).

Late game fights being a 2v2? Ok, sure. Supports generally are killed quickly after they exhaust the first round of their spells, but 2v2? No. Everyone plays a role. Dota 2 late game fights are MUCH better than League's in my opinion.

There are several active items in lol that can counter things. QSS can counter ulties and is not cost effective if there is really nothing to counter in the enemy team, but as soon as the enemy has soemthing to counetr, many carries get the item. Randuins and Zhonyas are other example, as well as the items that have active effects to reduce healing used to counter certain champ.

The problem in LoL is that since those item exists, people just dont choose the champs that can be hard counterred by those items, so that's why you dont get to see many of those items picked.

And no, in LoL there are no champs that get to an OP status after getting an item, which is GOOD and its a bad design FROM DOTA.

Supports are useless in late game dota besides using their spells to cc the enemy so that the 2 members of your team that actually do some stuff can fight. You cant be serious saying that late game fights in Dota are better. You should really look at more tournaments.

I prefer to watch M5 and TSM in action in LoL than watching EHOME turtling their way to the victory in Dota all day long.

The fact that inhibitors in LoL respawn while creep structures in Dota doesnt make LoL harder to snowball too.

---------- Post added 2012-09-06 at 12:05 PM ----------

I think losing gold on death makes the game less snowbally. While yes, it does make kills more important, it also means that you can set their most fed or farmed players back significantly by ganking them. If their Weaver is on 3 kills and is 300g from his relic, just gank him and much of his advantage is lost. Ace their team and that's a huge swing in gold. The current pushing meta also favours teams who can take advantage of openings quickly rather than look for fights everywhere. You don't necessarily need to be ahead to backdoor their towers with Prophet, Tinker or Clinkz, and towers are worth much more in dota.

Good teams dont let their fed person get ganked easily. A 3-0 kills fight in Dota make the gold difference so big that any teamfight after that will have a really big influence by it. In LoL, its not that much of a problem unless the game is really advanced so the winner team can push a lot because of it.

The current pushing meta also makes the game boring.

[Toxigen]

Welcome to League of Legends.
The game is usually decided at ~15 minute mark.

Rofl, this is probably the dude I hate that give up and start raging when you're down 4-10 early on.

It is exceptionally difficult on the professional level to come back from a staggering disadvantage....but teams like CLG.eu know that if you turtle well enough you can overcome gold disparities at the very late game. 40k vs. 30k gold is a lot worse than 70k vs 60k.

At the low ELO level, early advantages are easily dealt with for the most part. Unskilled players just give up way too fucking easily, and has been the bane of my league existence. I have come back from monstrous deficits because the other team gets too confident and makes dumb mistakes. If your carry lands a kill on their fed carry, that bonus gold can turn the tide...and that's not even considering the psychological effect of a winning team losing 2-3 engages in a row. They start raging, and you can win.

Granted, if they're truly over-fed...like 15+ kills on both their AP and AD carries when yours have less than 5...that is a mountain you only climb in the rarest of circumstances, but it is still possible.

[Deleted]

Rofl, this is probably the dude I hate that give up and start raging when you're down 4-10 early on.

It is exceptionally difficult on the professional level to come back from a staggering disadvantage....but teams like CLG.eu know that if you turtle well enough you can overcome gold disparities at the very late game. 40k vs. 30k gold is a lot worse than 70k vs 60k.

At the low ELO level, early advantages are easily dealt with for the most part. Unskilled players just give up way too fucking easily, and has been the bane of my league existence. I have come back from monstrous deficits because the other team gets too confident and makes dumb mistakes. If your carry lands a kill on their fed carry, that bonus gold can turn the tide...and that's not even considering the psychological effect of a winning team losing 2-3 engages in a row. They start raging, and you can win.

Granted, if they're truly over-fed...like 15+ kills on both their AP and AD carries when yours have less than 5...that is a mountain you only climb in the rarest of circumstances, but it is still possible.

This guy gets it.

[Deleted]

This guy gets it.

Not really.

The argument is statistical in nature.

If for every 100 games you are down after 15 minutes you only win 15, do those 15 wins outweigh the essentially wasted time in the other 85 games? Nobody is denying that you can turn around games that you are behind in, the 'too snowbally' argument is about end results being too dependant on very early engagements.

As a hypothetical example:

Every other lane is doing roughly equally, as is top. Your top and theirs clash, your top dies, theirs lives with 10 hp. A very very close engagement now leads to their top winning the lane easily, their jungler is freed up to gank mid repeatedly, thier mid takes the couple of kills worth of items to gank bottom and suddenly every lane is losing because of 10hp.

A big advantage like that should take more than winning an all in on top lane. I'm definitely not saying to give up after first blood, but to deny that early advantage is a big deal even into the endgame seems to be taking a reasonable argument way too far.

[Crashdummy]

Not really.

The argument is statistical in nature.

If for every 100 games you are down after 15 minutes you only win 15, do those 15 wins outweigh the essentially wasted time in the other 85 games? Nobody is denying that you can turn around games that you are behind in, the 'too snowbally' argument is about end results being too dependant on very early engagements.

As a hypothetical example:

Every other lane is doing roughly equally, as is top. Your top and theirs clash, your top dies, theirs lives with 10 hp. A very very close engagement now leads to their top winning the lane easily, their jungler is freed up to gank mid repeatedly, thier mid takes the couple of kills worth of items to gank bottom and suddenly every lane is losing because of 10hp.

A big advantage like that should take more than winning an all in on top lane. I'm definitely not saying to give up after first blood, but to deny that early advantage is a big deal even into the endgame seems to be taking a reasonable argument way too far.

If you seek statistics to disprove the snowballing argument, here you got it, you might have missed them since they were already posted in this same thread

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ally_snowball/

Early advantage DOES NOT gives you much snowballing in LoL, at least not as much as other MOBA games.

[Axethor]

If you seek statistics to disprove the snowballing argument, here you got it, you might have missed them since they were already posted in this same thread

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ally_snowball/

Early advantage DOES NOT gives you much snowballing in LoL, at least not as much as other MOBA games.

This is at the highest level of play though. In just a normal game or low ELO ranked game anything can happen, and snowballing does give that team a better advantage. I can snowball really hard as a jungler off one lane and lose because the lane I got fed off of was just barely keeping up because of my ganks, and the other two lanes were completely lost after giving up a few kills. 1 snowballing jungler vs. 4 or 5 snowballing enemies doesn't look good. Now, we could turn the game around. These players make just as many mistakes as my team. Exploit them. Odds are though that one of the failing lanes is raging and flaming hardcore, probably blaming me because it's always the junglers fault, and lowering the moral and self-esteem of the team. The causes us to make even more mistakes and the game is lost at that point.

It's not that the game is too snowbally, it's that there aren't enough level headed players in the game that will cooperate and help you try to win.

[akts]

Not really.

The argument is statistical in nature.

If for every 100 games you are down after 15 minutes you only win 15, do those 15 wins outweigh the essentially wasted time in the other 85 games?

Depends on the stakes, you know. You grinding IP in 1300 elo normals? /ff and don't bother. Championships with solid prize pool? Yes, it's worth wasting some time.

[Deleted]

This is at the highest level of play though.

Indeed, tournament level play with full voice comms and practiced teams is nothing like solo queue ranked or normals. The co-ordination needed to prevent snowballing is much less likely. My concern is with making every minute I'm playing as relevant to the outcome of my games as possible, not with what happens in professional play.

[Crashdummy]

This is at the highest level of play though. In just a normal game or low ELO ranked game anything can happen, and snowballing does give that team a better advantage. I can snowball really hard as a jungler off one lane and lose because the lane I got fed off of was just barely keeping up because of my ganks, and the other two lanes were completely lost after giving up a few kills. 1 snowballing jungler vs. 4 or 5 snowballing enemies doesn't look good. Now, we could turn the game around. These players make just as many mistakes as my team. Exploit them. Odds are though that one of the failing lanes is raging and flaming hardcore, probably blaming me because it's always the junglers fault, and lowering the moral and self-esteem of the team. The causes us to make even more mistakes and the game is lost at that point.

It's not that the game is too snowbally, it's that there aren't enough level headed players in the game that will cooperate and help you try to win.

Yes, and in low elo game i won once a game where my team was 27 kills and the enemy team had 74, just because 47 of the enemy team kills were on a noc and several others in a yi, so we all build thornmail and they literally burned themselves in the last teamfights, which is another item that can turn games around.

yes, in low elo turning games over is harder, because it involves you taking advantage of the enemy mistakes, which not always happen, but that happens in every single game in every single MOBA and there no much to be done really.

[Deleted]

i just throw in a thought of mine: regional finals dignitas against clg, game two!

[Deleted]

Nn after 15 minutes you only win 15, do those 15 wins outweigh the essentially wasted time in the other 85 games?

Wait wait wait!
Now this is something wrong. Just because you were losing the game and did not manage to turn it... it made the time wasted? Why play games then, if it's waste for you, sir?

[Kurdiern]

There are several active items in lol that can counter things. QSS can counter ulties and is not cost effective if there is really nothing to counter in the enemy team, but as soon as the enemy has soemthing to counetr, many carries get the item. Randuins and Zhonyas are other example, as well as the items that have active effects to reduce healing used to counter certain champ.

The problem in LoL is that since those item exists, people just dont choose the champs that can be hard counterred by those items, so that's why you dont get to see many of those items picked.

And no, in LoL there are no champs that get to an OP status after getting an item, which is GOOD and its a bad design FROM DOTA.

Supports are useless in late game dota besides using their spells to cc the enemy so that the 2 members of your team that actually do some stuff can fight. You cant be serious saying that late game fights in Dota are better. You should really look at more tournaments.

I prefer to watch M5 and TSM in action in LoL than watching EHOME turtling their way to the victory in Dota all day long.

The fact that inhibitors in LoL respawn while creep structures in Dota doesnt make LoL harder to snowball too.

---------- Post added 2012-09-06 at 12:05 PM ----------



Good teams dont let their fed person get ganked easily. A 3-0 kills fight in Dota make the gold difference so big that any teamfight after that will have a really big influence by it. In LoL, its not that much of a problem unless the game is really advanced so the winner team can push a lot because of it.

The current pushing meta also makes the game boring.

So that's 3 items. Compared to the 20 or so in Dota. Item Actives are much stronger and and have more of an impact in Dota than LoL. I don't know why you're trying to even argue this. It isn't an argument when everyone realizes that item builds and items themselves in LoL are bland and stagnant with little deviation. Riot themselves have realized this and are looking to rework items for Season 3.

Give me an example of a champion who is 100% hard countered by a single item. And it's not Malz with QSS. If that we're true, then Skarner would also be a bad pick. His issues aren't with the Ulti.

That's good because in LoL, you don't lose gold. There is no way to set someone behind in terms of gold because they will simply just keep farming. It is fine in Dota because you can constantly gank and keep a carry down. Losing gold on death works both ways. If you let a Void farm up a Battle Fury, MoM, and a Bfly/MKB or didn't push to end the game when you had the advantage, then you're stupid and deserve to get killed by him in Chrono.

You have 1 hard support. The designated 5 slot, who fits you're description. There are 4 others. The 1, 2, 3, and the 4. Yes, I do watch enough tournaments. Yes, late game fights are better. I think you need to rewatch TI2. Or hell, you should play it also. You really think 1 person getting blown up by a scaling AP Carry, AD Carry, and Bruiser in the span of 3 seconds is actually fun?

Oh boy, are we cherry picking certain examples of games now? I prefer to watch EG and IG instead of the same 2-1-1 and 1-1-2 meta every game in LoL. I prefer to watch Navi vs IG and see mentality and pick of Naga Siren that dominated the Dota 2 scene for months be instead crushed and beautifully turned around in one of the most epic moments I've ever seen in gaming instead of a one sided boring dick stomp like TSm vs Dig. Chinese meta is heavily farm based, no shit EHOME games are going to be slightly boring.

Except that Super Minions in LoL are way worse than a lanes Rax being down. There's a reason no Surrender is implemented into Dota 2 and that the saying of not surrenduring until all Rax's are down is common among pro's.

[Axethor]

This is not a DOTA vs LoL thread and should never have devolved into such. This is the first and final warning. Stop the DOTA vs LoL conversation, or I'm locking the thread.

This mod warning brought to you by the color purple, because it is awesome.

- Axethor

[Xanjori]

Give me an example of a champion who is 100% hard countered by a single item. And it's not Malz with QSS. If that we're true, then Skarner would also be a bad pick. His issues aren't with the Ulti.

What? Malz and Skarner are insanely different in terms of ulti, Malz needs his ulti to get the pool damage in. In late game the pool will be dealing around 13-15% of max HP per second, with delay and whatnot you'll spend around 3 seconds in it when Malz ultis you, putting in nearly 45% of your max HP from the pool. Without someone else CCing for you its impossible to get decent uptime on your pool for damage if your ulti is just being QSS'd.

---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 10:01 AM ----------

On topic. I dont think snowballing in LoL is too bad, at lower ELO you can easily outplay a snowball lead, I once won a game where we had 20 kills and the enemy had 54. You can also take CC heavy comps to help vs snowballers, like Akali. If Akali gets fed its far to say you can have issues, however you will blow her up if you can put just two stuns on her if you catch her. You can also have champions like Anivia that just make turret pushing very hard. CLG.eu vs M5 is probably the best example where Anivia allowed CLG to turtle until they were able to win the game.

Comp is huge in LoL, much bigger than early kills. I was in a game yesterday where we had a huge early game advantage, but our team refused to go mid/dragon as 5 and we allowed their Vayne to reach full items. We lost because a Vayne with full items protected by a decent amount of CC is a monster and carried hard. If my team had pushed to end early, sure our snowball woulda paid off, but we let it go late game and lost because of comp. The outcome of a game of LoL is more often decided by how your team plays with its gold than how much gold it can accumilate.

[Thallidomaniac]

Give me an example of a champion who is 100% hard countered by a single item. And it's not Malz with QSS. If that we're true, then Skarner would also be a bad pick. His issues aren't with the Ulti.

Frozen Heart and/or Randuin's Omen will screw a Xin Zhao over fairly hard.