[Explanation] The 'Holy Trinity', Dungeons, and You.

[Artorias]

Guild Wars 2 has obviously been advertised as the game that kills the 'holy trinity' of tank, healer, dps. However, it is also advertised as a game with many dungeons, which require cooperation between multiple players... So what does this mean exactly?

"There is no Holy Trinity" means this:

1. There is no pure tank.
2. There is no pure healer.
3. There is no pure DPS. *probably the most important to realize*

It also means EACH person in a group in GW2 needs the following:
1. Support Skills that give 'boons' to allies.
2. Defensive Traits to stay alive for more than 2 hits.
3. Healing Skills to keep yourself and your allies alive.
4. Enough Offense between the five of you to kill the enemies.
5. Enough actual skill to be able to dodge enemy attacks and stay out of the fire/traps/insta-kill attacks.

I see SO MANY posts and SO MANY comments in game saying that the dungeons are too hard. Usually these comments are followed by 'how are we supposed to do this without a tank and healer?!' Well... congratulations! YOU just got promoted to tank! And healer! And DPS! And Support! And whatever other role you can think of! You're it! Most people see it as 'OH LOOK no healer or tank that means we are all DPS!!!' ... Nope! You have to be completely self-sufficient while at the same time providing extra strength for your group as a whole. This is something that is very new for most MMO players, who are used to sitting in one spot, filling one role, and looking at one or two things they have to keep up with. Now, they have to do everything, all at the same time. So, how about some tips as to how to do that?

1. Choose your weapons, skills, and traits wisely. If you have the option to boost your own power by 100, OR the entire group's power by 70, take the group option. If you have to choose between an axe for some extra DPS or a shield for interrupts and protection, take the shield. Not sure if you need a meteor shower or a healing spring? You'll probably want that healing spring. This leads me to my next point:

2. You are better off alive than dead (probably). Most enemies, from trash to bosses, have all kinds of nifty abilities to knock you down and beat you up. If you aren't careful enough to stay very far away from them, you'll probably die. If you have any kind of ranged abilities, I suggest you use them as much as possible. When the enemy gets in melee range you either dodge, bash them away, or stun and run. If you can get a few good melee hits from behind the enemy, more power to you.

3. Strategize before fighting. If you think you can just got into a dungeon with a PUG (pick up group) and pull things like any other part of the game, you won't make it out of the first room. If you are in the dungeon and no one is saying anything, take the initiative to take control. Figure out what you want everyone to do ahead of time. Just because there are no roles doesn't mean there are no 'roles'. You want people to rez in combat, you want people to lay down certain buffs and healing abilities, you want people to stun and crowd control. It takes a lot of cooperation, but it works.

3.5. STRATEGIZE BEFORE FIGHTING. The most important thing you can say to your team is what to kill first. If you have 2 hammer enemies and 1 healer enemy, dodge the hammers and kill the healer first! MMO 101.

4. Stay Calm. If you freak out and start running/dodging in places you shouldn't you'll probably pull some extra mobs, which means everyone is going to die. Just focus on the enemy you are currently fighting and you will do fine. Again, try not to get bashed with a hammer while burning down the healer.

I'm sure others can post some tips as well, but these are the main points. Stay alive, work together, or DIE. Bottom line is that the trinity doesn't work without a threat system. If a tank can't hold aggro, the healer will die. That's really why you have to have a bit of all 3.

[Dodrin]

Guild Wars 2 has obviously been advertised as the game that kills the 'holy trinity' of tank, healer, dps. However, it is also advertised as a game with many dungeons, which require cooperation between multiple players... So what does this mean exactly?

"There is no Holy Trinity" means this:

1. There is no pure tank.
2. There is no pure healer.
3. There is no pure DPS. *probably the most important to realize*

It also means EACH person in a group in GW2 needs the following:
1. Support Skills that give 'boons' to allies.
2. Defensive Traits to stay alive for more than 2 hits.
3. Healing Skills to keep yourself and your allies alive.
4. Enough Offense between the five of you to kill the enemies.
5. Enough actual skill to be able to dodge enemy attacks and stay out of the fire/traps/insta-kill attacks.

I see SO MANY posts and SO MANY comments in game saying that the dungeons are too hard. Usually these comments are followed by 'how are we supposed to do this without a tank and healer?!' Well... congratulations! YOU just got promoted to tank! And healer! And DPS! And Support! And whatever other role you can think of! You're it! Most people see it as 'OH LOOK no healer or tank that means we are all DPS!!!' ... Nope! You have to be completely self-sufficient while at the same time providing extra strength for your group as a whole. This is something that is very new for most MMO players, who are used to sitting in one spot, filling one role, and looking at one or two things they have to keep up with. Now, they have to do everything, all at the same time. So, how about some tips as to how to do that?

1. Choose your weapons, skills, and traits wisely. If you have the option to boost your own power by 100, OR the entire group's power by 70, take the group option. If you have to choose between an axe for some extra DPS or a shield for interrupts and protection, take the shield. Not sure if you need a meteor shower or a healing spring? You'll probably want that healing spring. This leads me to my next point:

2. You are better off alive than dead (probably). Most enemies, from trash to bosses, have all kinds of nifty abilities to knock you down and beat you up. If you aren't careful enough to stay very far away from them, you'll probably die. If you have any kind of ranged abilities, I suggest you use them as much as possible. When the enemy gets in melee range you either dodge, bash them away, or stun and run. If you can get a few good melee hits from behind the enemy, more power to you.

3. Strategize before fighting. If you think you can just got into a dungeon with a PUG (pick up group) and pull things like any other part of the game, you won't make it out of the first room. If you are in the dungeon and no one is saying anything, take the initiative to take control. Figure out what you want everyone to do ahead of time. Just because there are no roles doesn't mean there are no 'roles'. You want people to rez in combat, you want people to lay down certain buffs and healing abilities, you want people to stun and crowd control. It takes a lot of cooperation, but it works.

3.5. STRATEGIZE BEFORE FIGHTING. The most important thing you can say to your team is what to kill first. If you have 2 hammer enemies and 1 healer enemy, dodge the hammers and kill the healer first! MMO 101.

4. Stay Calm. If you freak out and start running/dodging in places you shouldn't you'll probably pull some extra mobs, which means everyone is going to die. Just focus on the enemy you are currently fighting and you will do fine. Again, try not to get bashed with a hammer while burning down the healer.

I'm sure others can post some tips as well, but these are the main points. Stay alive, work together, or DIE.

I'll just address one major point; you can (and probably should) have a least 1 pure DPS who knows how to play well and minimize his dying. A pure DPS can do some insane numbers, and really helps on boss fights. But the other 4 slots should probably have some support.

[Artorias]

I'll just address one major point; you can (and probably should) have a least 1 pure DPS who knows how to play well and minimize his dying. A pure DPS can do some insane numbers, and really helps on boss fights. But the other 4 slots should probably have some support.

Good point, again this requires some coordination on the part of the team. That's the biggest thing here, the content is difficult to PUG with random people (because somebody won't know what they're doing...)

[Dodrin]

Good point, again this requires some coordination on the part of the team. That's the biggest thing here, the content is difficult to PUG with random people (because somebody won't know what they're doing...)

It'll be this way for a while.

Best thing to do (if you're knowledgable of the dungeon/class) is to help all players you come across. Will really smooth out the run. Don't adopt the WoW LFG mentality of "don't use party chat ever, unless you are criticizing someone"

[moff]

to sum it up: GW2 needs to be played with holy trinity or else you'll have a problem.

I mean seriously, in every other MMO classes can perform multiple roles. tanks do damage and heal a little bit, all healers can do damage and tank for a short time. how is GW2 different in any way?

[Deleted]

So, judging by your OP, if you had the choice between a Thief and a Guardian, you'd always pick the Guardian because he has so much more support than a Thief has while also being so much more durable?

[Deleted]

to sum it up: GW2 needs to be played with holy trinity or else you'll have a problem.

I mean seriously, in every other MMO classes can perform multiple roles. tanks do damage and heal a little bit, all healers can do damage and tank for a short time. how is GW2 different in any way?

It is different in the way that you need to watch yourself, there is no healer that can keep you up or anyone that keep the mobs from hitting you.

[Elim Garak]

It is different in the way that you need to watch yourself, there is no healer that can keep you up or anyone that keep the mobs from hitting you.

I'm pretty sure I can throw healing grenades on my engineer. And guardians can keep the mobs from hitting me.
Not to mention the healing turret.

[Artorias]

I'm pretty sure I can throw healing grenades on my engineer. And guardians can keep the mobs from hitting me.
Not to mention the healing turret.

But would you call yourself a dedicated healer? No. You have those to support your allies, but not exclusively support them.

[Strah]

Or you just go with a whatever setup you want and easily graveyard zerg the dungeon.

[Azuri]

Good post OP and the "masses" will never grasp this concept. Just saying.

[Imnick]

I think he means, everyone will have to tank, heal and dps a bit. You will be more inclined to one hole depending on your spec, but isn't like pve in wow where every dps go full glass cannon, every tank go full defensive and every healer go full heal.

@ Artorias thx for the info!

But if everyone is a tank, healer and DPS there still isn't a holy trinity :U

[Elim Garak]

But would you call yourself a dedicated healer? No. You have those to support your allies, but not exclusively support them.

Depends on my build, innit? And gear. there are +healing gems, you know, and +toughness and +vitality.
We are talking about dungeons, not leveling up, right?
In the end there will be dedicated healers and tanks. Trinity system works not because there's no alternative - but because it works.

[moff]

I'd be surprised if the top guilds will not have dedicated healers, tanks and dps.
On the other hand, as Azuri said, most players will never understand the concept and pugging in this game will be hell, in pve and pvp.

[VibrantViolet]

to sum it up: GW2 needs to be played with holy trinity or else you'll have a problem.

I mean seriously, in every other MMO classes can perform multiple roles. tanks do damage and heal a little bit, all healers can do damage and tank for a short time. how is GW2 different in any way?

Have you played? I just did AC last night, and there was a lot of dying from people not dodging, using support abilities, or watching their surroundings. You have to be on your toes, and be smart. The dungeons challenge you. People that go in with a WoW-mentality (I use WoW because I played it for so long) are going to die. You can't just stand there and dps.

[rhandric]

Depends on my build, innit? And gear. there are +healing gems, you know, and +toughness and +vitality.
We are talking about dungeons, not leveling up, right?
In the end there will be dedicated healers and tanks. Trinity system works not because there's no alternative - but because it works.

No tanks because you can't hold threat. No dedicated healers because a) healing is worse than preventing/mitigating damage in the first place (proactive > reactive), no targeted heals, aoe heals, while they add up, can't keep someone who tries to tank (tries to take damage instead of avoiding it) alive...but it is still useful for dealing with the incidental/(occasional) unavoided damage.

You know that time in other (trinity) MMOs where a tank dies, or a healer dies, and the fight becomes a mess, and you really get to see who knows what they're doing and who just survives because of the trinity? Well, that's what combat in GW2 is always like.

[parcus]

Or you just go with a whatever setup you want and easily graveyard zerg the dungeon.

Easily and a hell of a lot punishing, it is so bad it makes you want never to do that dungeon again. Anet punishes lack of skill in a most sadistic way.

[rhandric]

Easily and a hell of a lot punishing, it is so bad it makes you want never to do that dungeon again. Anet punishes lack of skill in a most sadistic way.

I'm guessing you never played GW1, where death meant you lost 15% health/energy, stacking to -60%

[Elim Garak]

No tanks because you can't hold threat.

Sure you can. be the closest, hit the hardest

No dedicated healers because a) healing is worse than preventing/mitigating damage in the first place (proactive > reactive), no targeted heals, aoe heals, while they add up, can't keep someone who tries to tank (tries to take damage instead of avoiding it) alive...but it is still useful for dealing with the incidental/(occasional) unavoided damage.

In other words there's dedicated healer - but he sucks. So tank has to go thru hoops to stay alive.

You know that time in other (trinity) MMOs where a tank dies, or a healer dies, and the fight becomes a mess, and you really get to see who knows what they're doing and who just survives because of the trinity? Well, that's what combat in GW2 is always like.

Nah, you are exaggerating. Everyone can kite anything to death. Solo.

[Shanseala]

Depends on my build, innit? And gear. there are +healing gems, you know, and +toughness and +vitality.
We are talking about dungeons, not leveling up, right?
In the end there will be dedicated healers and tanks. Trinity system works not because there's no alternative - but because it works.

Maybe "tanks", though I see them as more "control" than tanks since there is no taunting and no increased aggro, the tanks/controls have to control the aggro in other ways, with things like cc and projectile protection.

But dedicated healers... can't really happen. All big heals are on decently long cooldowns, and ones that aren't don't heal for much, even with stacked +healing. So you can't really be "dedicated to healing:" you have to get some damage in in the meantime, or at least be supporting with other boons/conditions as well, or you will be hurting the group rather than helping.

Prioritizing healing/full support? Maybe
Full dedicated healer who stares at bars and casts nothing but heals? Not gonna happen