1. #2021
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    What is this "ok"? Is it anything beyond your personal preferences? If so, where did this standard come from? If not, why should we care what you personally want?
    My personal preference would be that hard modes stay hard.
    But it seems as tho this will never happen. I just get tired of seeing the same comments that "we pay the same as you so we deserve to see all content"
    I see things as LFR and hardmodes are the same content just a different degree of difficulty.
    I guess its just my opinion that casuals dont like to feel inferior at not being able to do hardmodes (weather its skill or time) so they feel they deserve to complete the hardmode content. In the same way people with a different mind set feel that they work harder to do this content and it should be the same for all people who want to do it. I feel that it takes away the sense of accomplishment when content gets nerfed. As i stated gear makes the contend easier anyway.

    Dont mean to stereotype with the word 'casual' too. I guess casual nowerdays means those with a less focus on progress in current content term.
    I wouldnt consider myself hard core by the way (not in the old sense of the word). I raid only 9 hours a week. So in some sense people may say im casual. But my guild push for progress in them 9 hours.

    Another way of looking at it maybe;
    Im crap at pvp... but do you think ill be given glad in the same way a lesser skilled player will be given PVE status?
    I pay the same right?
    Last edited by kiltofake; 2012-09-28 at 02:03 PM.

  2. #2022
    High Overlord kennyisnotdead's Avatar
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    The big picture is what you are missing. WoW is being made into an easier managed product. Most class diversity has been removed and balanced. Content is balanced to be explored by everyone and controlled to gate access to probably major server resources.

    I said the same thing when they removed 40 man tiers. it just has never been the same...
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  3. #2023
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiltofake View Post
    I see things as LFR and hardmodes are the same content just a different degree of difficulty.
    That might be why they're known as "hard modes".
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  4. #2024
    Quote Originally Posted by kiltofake View Post
    I guess its just my opinion that casuals dont like to feel inferior at not being able to do hardmodes (weather its skill or time) so they feel they deserve to complete the hardmode content.
    I'm pretty sure you're just imagining that. In my experience, it's not a common position at all.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  5. #2025
    Quote Originally Posted by kiltofake View Post
    My personal preference would be that hard modes stay hard.
    But it seems as tho this will never happen. I just get tired of seeing the same comments that "we pay the same as you so we deserve to see all content"
    Which is most often expressed by Blizzard. "Casuals" are more prone to want access to the content rather than an automatic right to see it all.

    I see things as LFR and hardmodes are the same content just a different degree of difficulty.
    Well...yes.

    I guess its just my opinion that casuals dont like to feel inferior at not being able to do hardmodes (weather its skill or time) so they feel they deserve to complete the hardmode content.
    Casuals are casual largely because they don't really care. If they did, WoW and raiding would have a higher priority for them.

    In other words, i don't really buy this argument. Blizzard pushes the game at casuals because thats where the money is. Hard modes get nerfed because if tbhey didn't, guilds would run into a brick wall and leave. Many did anyway.

    EJL

  6. #2026
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    Aren't we over this. what is the point of changing everything again.
    while TBC was really the best scenario for us raiding but let's take it by the timeline.

    vanilla and TBC: you would be surprised by the amount of people who didn't get to see the new content and the high end bosses because they simply aren't elitists.

    Wrath and cata: they implemented the heroic version, making elitists and casual very happy about it.

    now we have 3 difficulties: Raid Finder - Normal - Heroic.
    Raid finder is for people who simply don't have the time to stick with a guild and raid with them but they would like to have the same experience as the "elitists"
    Normal is the only thing i see no point in keeping because it is really too much. since it doesn't help elitists nor casuals.
    Heroics are for guilds to compete in and quite challenging.

    i don't see why people can be so ignorant about other players and thinking of it from their point of view and not seeing what other players feel about it.

    every player see the game in a different way and it shouldn't concern you. if you like the content then do so. if you don't then world of warcraft is not for you

  7. #2027
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    i don't see why people can be so ignorant about other players and thinking of it from their point of view and not seeing what other players feel about it.
    You would have to ask the "casuals". Why do they have to see "everything" just because they paid a monthly fee? Why is it not enough to ask for some content for them, and some for other play styles? I don't go around demanding that I get gladiator titles because I paid my monthly fee and like the way they look, even though I'm shit at PvP.

    The reality is that the 10/25/afk/easy/hard system is not interesting to many old raiders who prefer real progression style raiding instead. We've seen WoW deteriorate to a point where most servers have no communities, no large established raiding guilds, and the whole game seems to be a glorified chat room where you teleport to minigames once in a while. Sorry, but that's not worth xpacs + 15$/month.

  8. #2028
    lol@this raiders are a minority and therefore blizzard should listen to the majority of casuals
    well let me tell you one thing,I've been a casual from bc to mop (meaning I'm literally unable to join a raiding guild due to time schedule) and I DO NOT WANT blizzard to cater to casuals raid-wise

    so raiders wanting the old system back aren't in a minority,there are casuals like me who agree too,because even if I'm a casual I'm still a gamer,nerfed content is shit content,and I'd rather have nothing then ruin raiding for all the other raiders,besides what is there to gain?LFR is NOT even close to what raiding is,it just feel like a big LFD group,cause that's what it is

  9. #2029
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    lol@this raiders are a minority and therefore blizzard should listen to the majority of casuals
    well let me tell you one thing,I've been a casual from bc to mop (meaning I'm literally unable to join a raiding guild due to time schedule) and I DO NOT WANT blizzard to cater to casuals raid-wise

    so raiders wanting the old system back aren't in a minority,there are casuals like me who agree too,because even if I'm a casual I'm still a gamer,nerfed content is shit content,and I'd rather have nothing then ruin raiding for all the other raiders,besides what is there to gain?LFR is NOT even close to what raiding is,it just feel like a big LFD group,cause that's what it is
    Yeah, same here. The times you finally get into a raid you will only see an easy raid. This makes me feel like the real game is further and more untouchable than it has ever been.

    Also you did get to raid more in BC as a casual player. There are 2 reasons for it 1. People knew each other better. 2. You didn't have to show your achievement. The reason number 2 changed it to "Get into raiding guild or do LFR".

  10. #2030
    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    You would have to ask the "casuals". Why do they have to see "everything" just because they paid a monthly fee? Why is it not enough to ask for some content for them, and some for other play styles? I don't go around demanding that I get gladiator titles because I paid my monthly fee and like the way they look, even though I'm shit at PvP.
    Why should raids only ever be seen by 1 or 2% of the player base? Why should huge amounts of resources be spent on an aspect of the game few, historically speaking, have ever seen while it was current?

    As it is, would you be surprised to learn that the people saying casuals have a right to see everything isn't casuals? Casual want pain- and hassle- free access to the raids. But the argument casuals have a right to see "everything" comes from Blizzard. And they have a point - there were huge deterrents in the game preventing players from raiding and so a huge proportion were denied reasonable access to content that was seen as an important part of the game.

    The reality is that the 10/25/afk/easy/hard system is not interesting to many old raiders who prefer real progression style raiding instead. We've seen WoW deteriorate to a point where most servers have no communities, no large established raiding guilds, and the whole game seems to be a glorified chat room where you teleport to minigames once in a while. Sorry, but that's not worth xpacs + 15$/month.
    As opposed to the model which would have "progression" raiding but brought out 1 5-boss raid every year or so because raiding didn't pay for itself? As it is, I expect we'll see some sort of progression system in place as Blizzard fine tune and work in both scenarios and LFR into the gaming system. However, there is no sign at this stage that Blizzard is going to break 10s to save 25s, nor is there any reason to suggest Blizzard will get rid of the multiple difficulty settings or inflict major changes on the raid model.

    However, if you have any ideas for working in a progression system then why not put them forward?

    EJL

  11. #2031
    Pretty simple to fix this.
    1) No heroics or normal, its just one difficulty and its going to be heroic mode.
    2) Only 25 mans, no more 10 man stuff.
    3) Spectator mode, so casuals can see the content.

  12. #2032
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Why should raids only ever be seen by 1 or 2% of the player base? Why should huge amounts of resources be spent on an aspect of the game few, historically speaking, have ever seen while it was current?
    Nice straw man you're attacking there. There should be a variety of raid content to match a variety of playstyles, including TBC style progression raids without shortcuts and freeloot modes.

    Casual want pain- and hassle- free access to the raids.
    Who elected you the king of casuals? I was as casual as you can get in Vanilla, never raided at all. Yet I was completely happy and had no problem with there being raid content for non-casual players. Even in TBC I'd argue I was a casual since I only raided 2-3 nights per week, less hours than an average person of my age watches the TV. Yet I still wanted a proper progression raids, not this "pain- and hassle- free" junk.

    As opposed to the model which would have "progression" raiding but brought out 1 5-boss raid every year or so because raiding didn't pay for itself?

    However, if you have any ideas for working in a progression system then why not put them forward?
    They had a perfectly working raiding game in vanilla/TBC. Which, contrary to your arguments, didn't bankrupt them and lose all the players, quite the opposite in fact.

  13. #2033
    High Overlord Naeton's Avatar
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    I have nothing against LFR.
    If you want to be a raider, just push for hardmodes and realm-ranking. That's it.
    Stop qq.
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  14. #2034
    1) Everybody doesn't have to work hard 24/7 to kill a single boss. In terms of player skills, there is a huge gap between high-end guilds and casual guilds. While one of them clearing the content, the other will end up with killing only 1 or 2 bosses, which will eventually cause people to quit the game. In other words, WoW will get to an end sooner.

    2) There are servers that are extremely low populated, removing 10 man raids will cause those people to migrate bigger servers a.k.a login issues for everyone. Why would you complain about this anyway? It has its own race among other 10 man-guilds.

    3) Who gives a damn about watching someone else raiding? Ofc, there will be some people who would like to watch others raiding, but it is nowhere near playing the game yourself. It is not like "you may not be a super-duper basketball player, but you can still watch NBA finals." If people won't be able to kill the bosses themselves at some point, there is no reason to play the game. Besides that can you imagine what would happen if more than lets say 5000 people connecting to some high-end guild's raid to see how that tool works?

  15. #2035
    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    Nice straw man you're attacking there. There should be a variety of raid content to match a variety of playstyles, including TBC style progression raids without shortcuts and freeloot modes.[
    Its not actually a strawman argument. You can keep on arguing about the ideal world scenario, but the truth right now is - raids or other content that is used by 1 or 2% of the player base is no longer possible. Your "no shortcuts" point would also so ensure that progression raiders have access to BOTH types of content while everyone else can access only one type.

    I can't think of even one good point for this system to come back as it was.

    Who elected you the king of casuals? I was as casual as you can get in Vanilla, never raided at all. Yet I was completely happy and had no problem with there being raid content for non-casual players. Even in TBC I'd argue I was a casual since I only raided 2-3 nights per week, less hours than an average person of my age watches the TV. Yet I still wanted a proper progression raids, not this "pain- and hassle- free" junk.
    And you are unlikely to get it.

    They had a perfectly working raiding game in vanilla/TBC. Which, contrary to your arguments, didn't bankrupt them and lose all the players, quite the opposite in fact.
    No. You keep missing the point on this. Or rather...you don't seem to believe it.

    Blizzard has been pointing out for years that few people ever made use of those raids. They've also, in various discussions, also pointed out the many flaws and issues they and the player base had with the old model.

    You don't seem to realise that raids used by such a small fraction of the player base are economically non-viable. It doesn't matter what the situation was like in TBC and Vanilla because the situation was different...and you also seem to overlook the fact that the Vanilla raiding structure was changed because raiding was so unpopular, that the raiding structure even back then was seen as problematic by Blizzard.

    Your entire argument is based upon a totally incorrect premise. Not only was the Vanilla/TBC raiding game not "perfectly working" but it was economically non-viable for them to support. It wasn't so much a case of not being able to afford it, but that the resources spent there could be put to better use elsewhere.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-10-01 at 07:10 AM.

  16. #2036
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Its not actually a strawman argument.
    It is the very definition of a straw man argument. You're arguing "Why should raids only ever be seen by 1 or 2% of the player base?" While I never said raids should only ever been seen by 1 or 2%. I'm asking for the kind of content that I enjoy, and I have a perfect right to do that. Once it's in the game, everyone has equal access to it since everyone has equal access to the game.

    You can keep on arguing about the ideal world scenario, but the truth right now is - raids or other content that is used by 1 or 2% of the player base is no longer possible.
    And you can keep stating without an argument or evidence that it is "no longer possible". It was possible in vanilla/TBC without bankrupting Blizzard or killing the sub base, you have provided no evidence it wouldn't be possible today.

    Your "no shortcuts" point would also so ensure that progression raiders have access to BOTH types of content while everyone else can access only one type.
    Everyone's subscription buys them exactly the same thing, access to the game. What you do in the game is then up to you, everyone has equal access.


    No. You keep missing the point on this. Or rather...you don't seem to believe it.

    Blizzard has been pointing out for years that few people ever made use of those raids.
    No. You keep missing the point, or don't seem to believe it. Whatever Blizzard points out is meaningless. Their current team is extremely bad at game design. Just look at D3 which died out in a few months, and Cata which lost them 25% of their subscriber base. And further, "making use of those raids" is a tiny part of the value the raids bring. They bring much more value through indirect effects like I've explained over and over. "Seeing" the raids, especially the crappy ones they make these days, has no value. It's just another recycled boss model and texture, crappy lore, and boss rooms connected by corridors. Seeing the "content" has almost no value in itself.

    You don't seem to realise that raids used by such a small fraction of the player base are economically non-viable.
    Blizzard did it in vanilla and TBC. The game was hugely profitable. Therefore you are simply, flat out, provably wrong.

  17. #2037
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggoman View Post
    Pretty simple to fix this.
    1) No heroics or normal, its just one difficulty and its going to be heroic mode.
    2) Only 25 mans, no more 10 man stuff.
    3) Spectator mode, so casuals can see the content.
    Exactly...

  18. #2038
    It is actually rather funny when you think about. In PVP in classic you could make a group or you could just go into bgs alone and grind honor to push your rank. Now a days to get a higher rank or better gear you have to make a rated bg team.
    Why is pvp rankings so inaccessible compared to pve?
    Lets all get grand marshal mailed to us in the post box because we are subscribing to the game we have a right to get that rank...

    But well truth is you are paying for access to a game, what you achieve in the game is up to you, your skill and your time.

  19. #2039
    companies have a problem spending time and money in development and then patching, tuning etc.. for 1% of the customers to access it. The burning crusade model wasnt great either. maybe would work without the attunements which just caused horrible amounts of guild poaching and new guilds ending up as gearing up guilds for larger ones then dying off.

    Play the game for fun, not an elitist sense of self importance and all the problems go away.

  20. #2040
    What a whiny post OP. This is exactly why WoW wasn't any fun during the BC days. You had the upper tier (maybe 5% player base) who were seeing the Raids and everyone else was doomed to whatever else was avaliable. Most people never got to experience those olds raids until late in Wrath or most of them as Transmog became popular in Cataclysm. Granted it was a challenge back then but things have progressed with the player base.

    You say you've been here since Day 1? Well so have I. Back in the days of Vanilla and BC I was in college, single, no worries, so raids were easy. Stay up till 3 AM? Sure! Ignore everything for 3-4 days a week just to raid for 5-8 hrs. Fine. But guess what? BC was what? 5-6 years ago? Things change. Most of the people I raided with back then moved on with their lives, they have jobs, they're married, they have kids. So the 3-4 days a week thing and staying on for 8 hrs to do a raid doesn't work anymore. Blizzard knows this and they compensated for this by adding in the LFR.

    You may not consider it raiding, and it's not the "best" thing, but if your guild can put together a 25 man group to run through it then I'm sorry, that's a raid. I've done this before to help me get geared and other casuals in the guild who can't be on 4 days a week for 10 hours a day. Guess what? We aren't dicks to each other, we use Vent, we play mechanics. So how is that NOT raiding?

    Honestly, I think they could change the dynamic to where you can't do the last Heroics and jump into a Raid. There should be a need to do the Raid Tier at least just before the one you're on. So you could do Heroic to 1 at the start, keep the same model once the next Tier releases. And with the Third tier bump it so you can jump into Raid Tier 2 from Heroics. Then if there's a Fourth Tier, you get bumped to Heroics then Tier 3. That would be acceptable so there was a sense of progression.

    Gettting rid of heroics though? It's an extra challenge to make things more interesting. Really you're just whining that there's more content then what you want to play at this point.

    Well, thanks for clearing out another piece of trash from WoW. The less people with your attitude = better for the game.

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