1. #2041
    The problem is that they're trying to be all things to all people, and, as a result, they're losing their niche and no one's happy, not the old players ("hardcore raiders") or the new ("casual players"). Either it's a challenging game or it's not. If it's not, then you're going to lose the people who are out there looking for a challenge. If it is, then you're going to have an innate meritocracy over who sees what.
    I tend toward the challenge, personally, because you encourage (require) a certain amount of commitment and therefore longevity in your player base. If you go towards the more casual player base, you might lower the barrier to entry but you also reduce the skill cap, and thereby the play life of the game per player, similar to the replay value in console games.

  2. #2042
    no one's happy
    Hasty generalization is hasty? I think plenty of people are happy right now.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  3. #2043
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendraeg View Post
    The problem is that they're trying to be all things to all people, and, as a result, they're losing their niche and no one's happy, not the old players ("hardcore raiders") or the new ("casual players"). Either it's a challenging game or it's not. If it's not, then you're going to lose the people who are out there looking for a challenge. If it is, then you're going to have an innate meritocracy over who sees what.
    I tend toward the challenge, personally, because you encourage (require) a certain amount of commitment and therefore longevity in your player base. If you go towards the more casual player base, you might lower the barrier to entry but you also reduce the skill cap, and thereby the play life of the game per player, similar to the replay value in console games.
    Somehow gotta agree with this one. The number of players giving up by things being too hard is most probably the same as people leaving because the game is too easy. Even if ~10% can only see the content it doesn't mean that 90% of the playerbase is going to leave. And 100% players being able to see the content does not mean that everyone is happy.

  4. #2044
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeophor View Post
    It is the very definition of a straw man argument. You're arguing "Why should raids only ever be seen by 1 or 2% of the player base?" While I never said raids should only ever been seen by 1 or 2%.
    But you are asking for a return of the conditions which led to that low figure. The reintroduction of the mechanics which acted as a strong deterrent to even trying them.

    I'm asking for the kind of content that I enjoy, and I have a perfect right to do that. Once it's in the game, everyone has equal access to it since everyone has equal access to the game.
    Everyone in theory had equal access to the same content in Vanilla. Except, in practise, the number of people who even entered the raids was low. Very low.

    And you can keep stating without an argument or evidence that it is "no longer possible". It was possible in vanilla/TBC without bankrupting Blizzard or killing the sub base, you have provided no evidence it wouldn't be possible today.
    No...its not possible because Blizzard have made it very, very clear the old model isn't economically viable. COULD they do it today? Yes. They could. They have no reason to do so and too much demand on limited resources to do so given the payback and problems the old system led to.

    Everyone's subscription buys them exactly the same thing, access to the game. What you do in the game is then up to you, everyone has equal access.
    I buy a ticket into a show. I come across an exciting new exhibit...all I need to do is scale a 10 foot wall and walk across a tightrope. Some people can do it...most can't.

    I have equal access to the show but that still doesn't give me equal access to the exhibits....which is what I paid for. The idea that people have "right of entry" to the raids is, to me, fair. All players should have a fair opportunity to take part in said content and not be put off by the same barriers that were around in Vanilla, the same barriers that ensured the raiding population was kept low, the same barriers that did little except make an increasingly small proportion of the player base feel special and the same barriers that are, to one degree or another, necessary for the progression style to exist.

    Same opportunity to take part does not include the same opportunity to win.

    And further, "making use of those raids" is a tiny part of the value the raids bring. They bring much more value through indirect effects like I've explained over and over.
    Indirect effects do not necessarily boost the value of raids that high. Especially when a lot of those indirect effects - e.g. raid guides - benefit raiders with no real impact on anyone else.

    Blizzard did it in vanilla and TBC. The game was hugely profitable. Therefore you are simply, flat out, provably wrong.
    That was then. This is now. Costs have risen. The game has grown. The demand for art and programmers and musicians and other specialities within Blizzard has increased.

    You seem to think this is just about money...its not, though thats certainly important. For example, Blizzard has only so many artists to create the necessary art for the game. Indeed, right now art is THE bottleneck holding up production. And if these artists are busy with raids, they cannot be busy with pets for the pet battle system. They cannot be used to create new lands or zones. They cannot have a big impact with scenarios. They cannot be used to update models. They cannot be used to create new animations or battle effects or new druid forms. They cannot help with dungeons or world events. Thy cannot, in short, be used to create art for any other of the myriad of activities within this game. And the same is true for everyone else.

    Raiders were and are expensive to develop. There is a cost in time, money, resources and having a situation where such a huge amount of work is invested only to have it continue to satisfy a small fraction of the player base is no longer viable. It wouldn't be in ANY business unless said content was subsidised by extra fees.

    What you are asking for is content that you, personally, like. Content structured like it used to be.There is nothing wrong with that.

    But that content structure doesn't work anymore.

    Blizzard has more and more demands on its resources as it adds more and more to the game. Costs have risen. Player expectations have changed. Aspects of the old game that many remember fondly are no longer acceptable in todays market.

    The progression style raiding...raiding without the shortcuts you don't like, raiding without the difficulty modes, raiding where killing a boss meant you got to progress and see new lore and a new part of the instance(which is the same as it is now) ...worked. But like so much else, players were happy with it because they didn't know better, because there wasn't an alternative. The system had issues for the game, it created barriers against raid entry and it added little, if anything, to the game.

    And it is those short cuts which will allow raiding to continue, and even expand. You have stated that you want a separate TBC style system, just for people like you...one without the options. That isn't happening. Its not viable to develop anymore. Not just economically, but Blizzard literally cannot spare the people required to do so.

    And really - what benefit would such a system bring? Beyond confirm the rose tinted glasses many people wear that is. Blizzard would expend a large amount of resources to develop content that had large and increasing barriers to entry and which would be experienced by fewer and fewer people as the game progressed. Anyone who enjoyed such content would also have access to the "casual" system as well, but the reverse wouldn't be true.

    The current system removes these barriers to entry. It ensures the current raid is viable for the entire player base. It lets everyone who wants to try raiding, even at a basic LFR level, to try it. It removes the problems associated with issues such as falling behind or arriving late. It addresses problems faced by guilds, and raid designers. It removes pointless, needless time grinds. And more.

    And you don't like it because having the option....an option you don't need to take...to run LFR devalues your sense of progression.

    Unfortunately, for what I would consider obvious reasons, Blizzard wants and needs raids to be popular and enjoyed by the entire player base, or at least as much of it as possible. It is not possible to develop content purely for an old-school progression raider as (leaving aside cost and resource issues) that defeats entirely a major advantage of the current system....removing many of the entry barriers that existed. Blizzard is not going to restore those because it is not in its interests to do so, nor does it appear to be in the interests of the game. It is also a reflection that the progression system isn't missed by many people - the current raid has always been the focus and where people wanted to be.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-10-02 at 07:46 PM.

  5. #2045
    Quote Originally Posted by Matson View Post
    Somehow gotta agree with this one. The number of players giving up by things being too hard is most probably the same as people leaving because the game is too easy. Even if ~10% can only see the content it doesn't mean that 90% of the playerbase is going to leave. And 100% players being able to see the content does not mean that everyone is happy.
    I'm not even going that far with it. I'm talking about the difference between a churn of casual players in and out after a few months and dedicated players who stay for 3, 4, 5, 6 years with a game (and a guild and a server) because there's always more to learn, not just more to do. This game's base is built on those strong players, like it or not, and it's built on the things that keep those players playing as a team.
    It's not about the shinies, it's about getting the shinies. Contrary to popular (casual) opinion, hardcore raiders don't hang around the cities and flaunt their gear. The raiders are the ones with 8 other alts who do the farming and mat gathering for the next raid. They don't have time to show off. They're there for the challenge. When that challenge goes away, adding more shinies don't make up for it, even the dungeon art doesn't make up for it. Guild Wars, Rift and SWTOR should have taught everyone that.
    You want a happy base? Keep them rolling, keep them going. Content isn't the art. Content is the raid itself. The mechanics changing every time you turn around. Making adjustments not only to your raid, but to your personal character to be the best, not to show off, but to meet a challenge.
    It's like the "Tough Mudder" competitions that have been sweeping through the country the last few years (I know they were around before, but they've gotten popular recently), it's not about showing off, there's not much glory in being covered in mud. It's about proving to yourself that you can do it. When you turn that "Tough Mudder" into a toddler's mudpuddle, more people finish the course, but not many are going to be interested in doing it again the next year.

  6. #2046
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendraeg View Post
    I'm not even going that far with it. I'm talking about the difference between a churn of casual players in and out after a few months and dedicated players who stay for 3, 4, 5, 6 years with a game (and a guild and a server) because there's always more to learn, not just more to do. This game's base is built on those strong players, like it or not,
    I have a problem with pointing to the (supposed) loyalty of hardcore players as a reason to cater to them. Perhaps they are loyal because, in the past, the game sucked up to them? It's easy to be loyal when the game design is biased in the direction you want.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  7. #2047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendraeg View Post
    I'm talking about the difference between a churn of casual players in and out after a few months and dedicated players who stay for 3, 4, 5, 6 years with a game (and a guild and a server) because there's always more to learn, not just more to do. This game's base is built on those strong players, like it or not, and it's built on the things that keep those players playing as a team.
    Your implied assumption seems to be that casual players don't stick with the game but that hardcore raiders do. I don't believe either case to be true either in the specific or general sense, particularly when it comes to casual players. We don't see subscriber numbers whipsawing up and down by the millions with the release and aging of each patch (by definition every few months). And there simply isn't enough of the 'hardcore raider' group to sustain USA/Europe subscriber totals between 4-5 million.
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  8. #2048
    Maybe they actually should make some "vanilla servers" just to refresh the memory of those freaks with their "give the WoW back to the hardcore".

    Btw, why the fuck should a company cater for 1-5% of their customers with nice content and great raids, while letting the huge rest farming clothes in some shit hole? I don't see any reason at all, since the company will lose customers like hell

    The only reason that shit worked in vanilla an TBC is that the online market was very poorly developed. You had WoW and some other really ugly games and that's all. Now, if you tell a player to farm mobs 3 months to get a fucking Winterspring Frostsaber, he will laugh madly while going to SWTOR, GW2 and some other 1 billion other games that won't keep you stuck in shit.

    Please make a game now where you have to wait several months until you get a mount, see how profitable that "epic game" is. WoW was nothing but a long string of time sinks. Farm money to get a mount, farm reputation to get a fucking key, farm resistance gear, run like an idiot until level 40, then like a retard until 60. Farm for epic flying mount, or fly slower that a fucking horse can run. If you died, well, run and run and run and run some more. Get a quest to run tot the other continent, then return back with a shit item. Epic! Run to the dungeon. Run to the battleground. Run, run, run and farm, farm, farm. Lol, that shit was epic, man

  9. #2049
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    Maybe they actually should make some "vanilla servers" just to refresh the memory of those freaks with their "give the WoW back to the hardcore".

    Btw, why the fuck should a company cater for 1-5% of their customers with nice content and great raids, while letting the huge rest farming clothes in some shit hole? I don't see any reason at all, since the company will lose customers like hell

    The only reason that shit worked in vanilla an TBC is that the online market was very poorly developed. You had WoW and some other really ugly games and that's all. Now, if you tell a player to farm mobs 3 months to get a fucking Winterspring Frostsaber, he will laugh madly while going to SWTOR, GW2 and some other 1 billion other games that won't keep you stuck in shit.

    Please make a game now where you have to wait several months until you get a mount, see how profitable that "epic game" is. WoW was nothing but a long string of time sinks. Farm money to get a mount, farm reputation to get a fucking key, farm resistance gear, run like an idiot until level 40, then like a retard until 60. Farm for epic flying mount, or fly slower that a fucking horse can run. If you died, well, run and run and run and run some more. Get a quest to run tot the other continent, then return back with a shit item. Epic! Run to the dungeon. Run to the battleground. Run, run, run and farm, farm, farm. Lol, that shit was epic, man
    You are focused on running, who gives a shit about that. I do not think any hardcore player would be sad to see that go, to a certain extent. This is what you want from what I am gathering:

    * Just let me in the fucking dungeon so I can auto-kill shit, I do not want to wipe once. Matter of fact, I want a free epic mailed to me every time i log in. No, fuck that shit. Send me a catalogue with the fall preview of all the loot, I can order what the fuck I want, it should take me 10 mins after login to be uber.

    ** Also, i do not want to speak with anyone, fuck team work or his cocksucker of a cousin Community. I want to login for 30 mins every week and get a new gear set. I also want a full list of cheat codes. I will finish up the week by being able to spout racism, trolling, cursing in trade.

  10. #2050
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Your implied assumption seems to be that casual players don't stick with the game but that hardcore raiders do. I don't believe either case to be true either in the specific or general sense, particularly when it comes to casual players. We don't see subscriber numbers whipsawing up and down by the millions with the release and aging of each patch (by definition every few months). And there simply isn't enough of the 'hardcore raider' group to sustain USA/Europe subscriber totals between 4-5 million.
    No one's talking about removing the casual experience. Rather, the focus of raiding, since the raiders are the ones, by definition, who get the most out of it, make them the innovators (since they will be anyway).
    To use Cata as an example: BoT, TotFW and BD launch in hardmode 11/16/10 (4.0.3, or launch of Cata).
    On 2/8/11, say TotFW releases as normal mode (4.0.6), on 4/26/11 BD opens normal (4.1.0), on 6/28/11 BoT breaks normal while Firelands releases hardmode (4.2.0).
    Firelands goes normal 11/29/11 while DS opens hardmode and later releases normal when the nerfs would have kicked in (I don't have that date handy). That allows for hardcore raiders to go in and work through those raids as primary raids, then when people get stuck, just like we did in HM DS, we get a later nerf to allow for lower access. This has an added benefit. These "normal modes" don't even have to be different modes (just the cancel-able buff/debuff) , and therefore don't require different loot, thereby reducing gear inflation.

  11. #2051
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendraeg View Post
    To use Cata as an example: BoT, TotFW and BD launch in hardmode 11/16/10 (4.0.3, or launch of Cata).
    On 2/8/11, say TotFW releases as normal mode (4.0.6), on 4/26/11 BD opens normal (4.1.0), on 6/28/11 BoT breaks normal while Firelands releases hardmode (4.2.0).
    Firelands goes normal 11/29/11 while DS opens hardmode and later releases normal when the nerfs would have kicked in (I don't have that date handy). That allows for hardcore raiders to go in and work through those raids as primary raids, then when people get stuck, just like we did in HM DS, we get a later nerf to allow for lower access. This has an added benefit. These "normal modes" don't even have to be different modes (just the cancel-able buff/debuff) , and therefore don't require different loot, thereby reducing gear inflation.
    So....what you propose is that the first tier of raiding is only used by those 5% of players willing/capable of heroics for 3 months, and "casuals" not to get access to raiding at all for a year? And then only to content thats out of date?

    That's so obviously not going to work. And I don't get your point about raiders being "innovators".

    EJL

  12. #2052
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    So....what you propose is that the first tier of raiding is only used by those 5% of players willing/capable of heroics for 3 months, and "casuals" not to get access to raiding at all for a year? And then only to content thats out of date?

    That's so obviously not going to work. And I don't get your point about raiders being "innovators".

    EJL
    The raiders are the innovators in raiding. They're the ones who work out the strategies and the ones pushing the new content, so you give them the content.

    As far as the timing, I was linking it to the actual patch dates. They wouldn't have to be that long, of course.The point is that right now the hardcore crowd is basically getting sloppy seconds in development, even though they're the ones who are really going to be pushing through first.

    As far as "out of date"...kind of, yeah, though, as I said, they don't have to be linked that far out, my illustration was simply using existing dates rather than just applying whatever arbitrary dates.

    Let me use cars as an analogy for development focus:
    Most people want a car that looks decent, gets decent mileage, plenty of room for their 2.5 kids, and gets them from point A to point B. (Casuals)
    Car, specifically hot rod, enthusiasts want a car with high horsepower and will go 0-60 in 3 seconds (hyperbole). (Hardcore raiders)
    If you design your hot rods according to how most people want their cars to be, you end up with a sedan with mediocre mileage, but looks sporty, like, oh, maybe a Honda Accord, rather than a Corvette.
    In case you missed it, what I am saying is design your raids to your raiders then make your adjustments for the crowd later rather than making it for the crowd and modding it for the raiders.

  13. #2053
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    So....what you propose is that the first tier of raiding is only used by those 5% of players willing/capable of heroics for 3 months, and "casuals" not to get access to raiding at all for a year? And then only to content thats out of date?

    That's so obviously not going to work. And I don't get your point about raiders being "innovators".

    EJL
    Why wouldnt casuals get to do some raiding? They have been progressing through normals?
    I dont get why hard mode content had to be nerfed... Surly people want to feel some achievement instead of having it made easier for them?
    Nerfing hardmodes only undermines the normal modes anyway. I pretty muched skipped normals on my alt and went stright into DS HC with LFR gear. Thats how much of a joke it had become.

    I understand your argument, I do. But I personally like many others want to work at something. If i dont kill a boss in the first month then I dont want to see it made easier for me.. The whole point of doing this fight is to get it down eventually. Underdstanding the fight better each time and some upgrades will get me the kill.

    Yes we can take away the buff, but I play on a server with many friends in other guilds. We have rivalry and you cant assume others will play without buffs. Im sure many other guilds have friendly rivalry and bragging rights mean alot (especially with mates)

    I dont see it sadly how you do. The raids are there for all to enjoy. I dont unstand nerfs to heroic content while it is still in progress and current. Like I said in my last post sadly I just think some people dont like to work for something but feel they are missing out if they dont/cant. So they support nerfs to attain the same stance.
    Im not an awsome player but im decent enough. Im not as good as some others and sadly I might not clear all in the first few weeks of release (heroic) like others. But im sure I will do it and I dont want it made easy for me or my competion

  14. #2054
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendraeg View Post
    The raiders are the innovators in raiding. They're the ones who work out the strategies and the ones pushing the new content, so you give them the content.
    And the reason this should be limited to just the hardcore 1 or 2%?

    As far as the timing, I was linking it to the actual patch dates.
    I noticed. I don't think the actual dates are that relevant. You cannot hold back such content at any stage for more than a week or two. That may be justifiable for the LFR system...but it isn't for the Normal or Heroic modes.

    Holding such content back for months cannot be justified. Forbididng the LFR from being used until the Xpac is essentially over cannot be justified. Denying casuals the chance to engage in content even for a single patch cannot be justified.

    They wouldn't have to be that long, of course.The point is that right now the hardcore crowd is basically getting sloppy seconds in development, even though they're the ones who are really going to be pushing through first.
    So what? The hardcore crowd, as you put it, get the same chance they always have. To practise the raid dry on beta/PTR and then clear it in hours on Live. The hardcore crowd don't get shafted in content development...in many ways, given the historic lack of popularity of raids, they've been prioritised. As it is, the game still has content for those players. They will still be first, they will still be the innovators simply by virtue of being "hardcore" and devoting a huge amount of time into the raid content.

    What you are asking for is for this content to be made exclusive to those players able to take on the heroic mode for several weeks so that their feeling of progression/superiority isn't wrecked by the thought "some one else is doing this on easimode right now"

    In short, this appears to be the "special snowflake" argument again - keep the raids special by denying them, even for a while, to the causals.

    "In case you missed it, what I am saying is design your raids to your raiders then make your adjustments for the crowd later rather than making it for the crowd and modding it for the raiders.
    No - what you are saying is that casuals and normals don't deserve to get entry into the raid until a certain amount of time has passed; that the hardcore player deserves first shot at the heoric modes because he is "special", because he "innovates" the strategies and tactics used.

    As for the idea that raids aren't developed for raiders...what makes you think they aren't? Anticipated skill and coordination is a reason the raids have three difficulty modes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiltofake View Post
    Why wouldnt casuals get to do some raiding? They have been progressing through normals?
    He just advocated not opening up LFR for a year after an XPac launched. He just advocated ensuring that normals had no access to the raids for the first three months of their lifea nd woudl always be three month behind.

    Granted, he made use of the Patch dates as an example to illustrate his point....but that same example showed why it was a bad idea.

    I dont get why hard mode content had to be nerfed...
    I do. I don't really agree with it, but Blizzard needed to give players something to do. The nerfs allow them to progress through existing content by ensuring that they can overcome the roadblocks they come across. The alternative was not to put in the nerfs, and see huge numbers leave in frustration at not being able to get past whatever roadblock their group faced.

    Surly people want to feel some achievement instead of having it made easier for them?
    Some do. Most, IMO, just want the gear.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-10-04 at 05:13 AM.

  15. #2055
    wow, this argument again (or still)?

    This boils down to, basically, the "raiders" wanting to deny trivial content (LFR) to the "casuals." (not everybody who raids is in this group. The majority that I know honestly don't care about LFR)

    I think that most players just want a way to progress their character, regardless of play style. Until Wotlk, Blizzard didn't provide that to everyone:

    Vanilla:
    Raid: MC-BWL-AQ-Naxx
    "Casual:" UBRS-d2 set-nothing until BC

    BC:
    Raid: Kara - (Gruul+Mags)-(SSC+TK)-(Hyjal+BT)-SSC
    "Casual:" Normal-Heroics(maybe)

    Wotlk:
    Raid: (Naxx 2.0 + EOE)-Ulduar-TOTC-ICC
    "Casual:" Normals - Heroics - ToTC normal - ToTC heroic - ICC Normal dungeons - ICC Heroic Dungeons

    Cata:
    Raid: (BWD, etc) - Firelands - Dragon Soul
    "Casual" - Normals - Heroics - Troll Heroics - EoT Heroics - LFR

    MOP:
    Raid: (MSP, etc)
    "Casual:" Normals - Heroics - LFR

    As you can see, the content has been much more balanced between the two playstyles, and I'm okay with that. Everybody gets something they want.

  16. #2056
    I think this thread still applies even more today than 6 months ago. Give the raiders the design priority and give the casuals the rest of the game design priority. I think all groups would say 5 mans need to be made harder though.

  17. #2057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    I think this thread still applies even more today than 6 months ago. Give the raiders the design priority and give the casuals the rest of the game design priority. I think all groups would say 5 mans need to be made harder though.
    completely depends on the rewards. if they stay the same blue items then no, because those items quickly become outdated, leaving nothing but VP to be of any use. and i certainly dont want to spend large chunks of time doing harder dungeons just for a tiny amount of VP.

    dungeons are as difficult as they need to be for random people who more or less just want the valor.
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    I do realize that this is an internet forum full of morons, however in real life, no one questions me, people look to me for the answer, look up to me, trust me. To have dipshits on a video game forum question me, is insulting.

  18. #2058
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    I thought this thread was dead a long time ago - necro much?

  19. #2059
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Its Halloween, time to raise the dead! 5 mans are great right now, get in and done in 10 minutes.

  20. #2060
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    In most other games, to see the content, you have to clear the content before that.

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